Petition

[465fan]

http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/29830

Following two recent incidents, I am nothing short of compelled to act, I see at least, on behalf of various enthusiasts who may not be likely to complain.

At London Bridge, a member of staff saying it was illegal decided to try and block my lens by repeatedly hitting the camera with his walkie talkie. This has damaged it, and the British Transport Police will now decide if their is significant evidence on CCTV for me to claim against Network Rail.

At Kentish Town West, a Security Contractor on behalf of London Overground assaulted me by making a two handed grab and harsh pull to prevent me from shooting a 378 approaching from Gospel Oak. This is also under investigation, although London Overground accepted liability and I will pursue them for some kind of compensation.

In the mean time, I will attempt to create Governmental change, please sign the petition, and in order to get all 100,000 I would appreciate if you could get family members and friends, and other enthusiasts to sign.

Link above

With thanks

 

[mralexn]

So they done this, even after you asked them "permission" ?

I'm very appalled to hear how you were treated.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Indeed, I am most annoyed by the manner that you describe in both incidents and I am sure there are those on the forum with legal minds could name an offence committed in both incidents.

 

[465fan]

I have Criminal Damage and Assault in both; the BTP are entertaining both, with London Overground actually admitting liability.

 

[RichmondCommu]

While I'm sorry to hear of the way you've been treated by station staff there is no clear way of defining whether you are a rail enthusiast or a terrorist. Would it not be easier for all concerned (including yourself) if you simply followed standard guidelines before taking photo's on railway property?

 

[GB]

Whether you abide by the guidelines or not, there is absolutely no excuse for staff to damage equipment or assault in such a manner.

...and lets not start the old terrorist argument shall we as that wears quite thin.

 

[First class]

I have no opinion on this issue, but looking at it from a legal perspective:

There's no way you'll get criminal damage charges. I doubt BTP could prove the intent element.

Assault, again I doubt this will get far as no assault occurred. The BTP have to prove that he deliberately intended to cause you to apprehend immediate violence. At a push the offence of "Battery" may have been committed, but it is often difficult to prove intention or recklessness. The BTP would not "decide" whether there was evidence for you to claim of Network Rail in any circumstance anyway. That is down to a Magistrate to decide for when you begin civil litigation.

No police action will be taken, almost certain of that.

Just file a MCOL against both companies and be done with it.

However, although a fine line, if someone asks you to stop filming/photographing on the station, you MUST comply. You commit an offence by refusing to comply with a request to cease an activity that the member of staff deems in which he should act in the interests of safety.

An authorised person may, in an emergency or in other circumstances in
which he believes he should act in the interests of safety, issue instructions to
any person on the railway. No person shall, without good cause, disobey such
instruction

Now it is entirely up to the member of staff when he thinks it necessary to enforce such Byelaw. It could be as simple as not signing in (and therefore failing to comply with the guidelines/a H+S law, Ways & Means Act et al etc)...

 

[Schnellzug]

"Safety", that all purpose excuse for anything.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

While I'm sorry to hear of the way you've been treated by station staff there is no clear way of defining whether you are a rail enthusiast or a terrorist. Would it not be easier for all concerned (including yourself) if you simply followed standard guidelines before taking photo's on railway property?

Yes, there is. Terrorists don't stand on platforms, photographing Trains. And every time anyone tries to use the argument that "anything is justifiable if it stops the Terrorists Killing People", then I'm afraid that those who want to keep everyone in a state of Fear and Paranoia have scored one more victory.

 

[merlodlliw]

While I'm sorry to hear of the way you've been treated by station staff there is no clear way of defining whether you are a rail enthusiast or a terrorist. Would it not be easier for all concerned (including yourself) if you simply followed standard guidelines before taking photo's on railway property?

Terrorists don't use conventional cameras ,I am afraid that certain security firms use staff, who would never get a job elsewhere, I am really surprised at some of these security Companies who appear to take on anyone when they get a contract, example 20 minutes induction & minimum wage.
I clocked one individual at a County Show who had been jailed for assault when working for a car parking fine Company in Wrexham, I had a word with the show organiser, who thanked me and had him removed,plus the Company never got another contract with the County Show. That individual BTW was never vetted, this occurs too often.

My opinion of course

 

[Fare-Cop]

I would have a look at this. The position publicly expressed by Network Rail is very clear:

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/passenger_services/guidelines_for_rail_enthusiasts.html

IF the BTP do their job properly and provide a report to NR and / or the TOC concerned, there is no reason why action should not be taken against what some people might suggest were zealous staff

Ask a photographer to desist IF there is evidence of an impediment to safety or public access yes, but there is no right to damage private property or even to ask the photographer to destroy the images. Only viewing the images by someone qualified to make the judgement would determine whether there was a likely threat and as someone so rightly pointed out, the committed terrorist is unlikely to be standing on a platform publicly taking pictures.

I do wish people would stop hiding behind what the law does not say and encouraging others to rack-up the perception of a day to day suburban world that is more dangerous than it is.

 

[First class]

I would have a look at this. The position publicly expressed by Network Rail is very clear:

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/passenger_services/guidelines_for_rail_enthusiasts.html

IF the BTP do their job properly there is no reason why action should not be taken against over what some people might suggest were zealous staff

Ask a photographer to desist yes, but there is no right to damage private property or even to ask the photographer to destroy the images.

It is perfectly legal to request somebody to delete images. The law does not require the picture taker to comply.

 

[Fare-Cop]

Yes, someone can be asked but do not have to comply. Security personnel do not have stop and search powers or the right to handle your camera or delete images or confiscate film under any circumstances.

In some circumstances, the police may sieze your film or memory cards but they are not authorised to delete any images.

If you've committed an offence the images would act as evidence, and if you haven't committed any offence then the images are innocent and they are always the photographers work and property.

 

[starrymarkb]

If you want to avoid all hassle then take photos from the Public Highway.

I was recently involved in some amateur film making and we deliberately remained on public streets rather then have to seek permission to film in the shopping centre (which is open air, but private land)

Remember that stations are private land, and as such if requested to stop filming/photographing you should do so and go elsewhere. Kicking off about "rights" isn't going to help. National Rail do have guidelines saying that in general you are welcome, but they are guidelines and if station staff don't want you filming/photographing you can be moved on.

Again, as long as you remain on the public highway no-one can stop you... Anywhere else is at the consent of the landowner or their agents.

 

[First class]

Yes, someone can be asked but do not have to comply. Security personnel do not have stop and search powers or the right to handle your camera or delete images or confiscate film under any circumstances.

In some circumstances, the police may sieze your film or memory cards but they are not authorised to delete any images.

If you've committed an offence the images would act as evidence, and if you haven't committed any offence then the images are innocent and they are always the photographers work and property.

Technically, Condition 49a (NRCoC) can prohibit you taking a camera upon the railway. This one can be used to prohibit taking pictures of staff who do not wish to be filmed/photographed as you then becoming a nuisance IN THEIR OPINION. This would then most likely cause them to invoke Section 58 NRCoC.

Similarly, to prosecute, Byelaw 6(2) +/or 6(8) could be used in place of 49(a) NRCoC, followed up by Byelaw 13(2)/24(2).

Not saying this is the right course of action to take, but some "spotters" I've encountered are downright arrogant and believe they have the right to just come on to a station and do whatever they please. It is a privilege when permitted to enter the station for this purpose, one which could be withdrawn at any time. The ones who deliberately take photos of staff in an attempt to wind them up are breaking the law and should IMO be prosecuted as they do decent spotters/enthusiasts no favours at all.

 

[465fan]

I see this thread has become vastly off course. In the case of London Overground, I received a letter which stated that I do not have to ask permission to take photos, but to abide by simple rules (No flash, No trespass, No staff, No security cameras). This is the shot which I always take at Kentish Town West if I want a good one of the Empty Steels. As you can see, the platforms have finished and nothing there can possibly be construed as being questionable. The staff member stating it was illegal was total tosh, and this has since been confirmed by LO. LO have also admitted that they do not expect their staff to behave the way they did; the area is littered with CCTV and I anticipate that this Assault charge will actually work here, not least because of the sheer gravity of his attack, which was from behind!

As for the Network Rail at London Bridge staff member, this was again totally unjust. He was banging on about how it was illegal and how I had to get a permit (yes, had to, without question). I had about 10 minutes before my train home, and was simply wandering through to get to my platform, and took a shot of a 455 and a 171 if I remember correctly. The Station Manager has since said that it was quite obvious a permit was not required, and the Platform chap saying I needed a permit, "because even the BBC have to have one" was a dreadful likening seeing as their purpose is commercial. I now have full authority of that Manager to continue my practices, and the CCTV will be reviewed today to ascertain the situation. His training, which is centred around customer service, most certainly did not state that he had to be Rude (which he was in his approach), Offensive ("How Long have you been doing this?" "Years" "You are a LIAR"), or above all else touch a person or their property. He deliberately tried to block my lens by hitting it with his walkie talkie.

In both situations, I have been more or less proven right. In the case of London Overground at Kentish Town West, they have accepted my challenge. In the case of Network Rail, the situation is that should my story be correct, they too would be likely to issue a formal apology at the bare minimum.

More responses that go off on a tangent will be most gratefully accepted.....

 

[Nonsense]

While I'm sorry to hear of the way you've been treated by station staff there is no clear way of defining whether you are a rail enthusiast or a terrorist. Would it not be easier for all concerned (including yourself) if you simply followed standard guidelines before taking photo's on railway property?

Spotters take pictures of trains. Terrorists explode. Its not exactly rocket science.

I can't see the petition getting many signatures, but it now has mine.

 

[First class]

It's an emotive, but highly subjective topic for debate, which I'm sure will have been mentioned on the forum previously.

As much as you may not like to, if someone asks you to stop filming, then comply, walk away and go somewhere else/get your train. Write a complaint at your earliest convenience and get a written reply.

I am quite sure that you will have gotten into a debate over this issue with the staff at the time, which led to a camera being broken. If they ask you to leave, it's unlikely that getting increasingly wound up about it will do you (or anyone else) any favours.

You really think "Trainspotter Rights" will be debated in Parliament? You can't force a private company to let people onto their property to take pictures! A petition isn't the right way to resolve your issues.

Issue MCOL proceedings against whatever TOC and remain calm However, bear in mind:

A Train Company’s liability in respect of any item will not exceed the value of that item or £1,000,
whichever is the lower

If you want me to do you a draft MCOL claim then PM me and I'll assist. Takes 10 minutes to start a claim. Nice and simple.

 

[465fan]

Spotters take pictures of trains. Terrorists explode. Its not exactly rocket science.

I can't see the petition getting many signatures, but it now has mine.

We're getting it publicised in the relevant channels, but instead of just the people who read about it signing it, we really need families and friends to sign it too.

Cheers for your support, mind.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

LM; assault with oblique intention?


Sent from my iPhone 4 using Tapatalk

 

[First class]

LM; assault with oblique intention?

You'd have to prove that the camera being damaged was a virtually certain outcome, and the person KNEW it was almost certain to happen! I believe the authority is Woolin.

I seriously doubt any employee is going to deliberately damage a camera. Maybe push it away or down, but not intend or expect to damage it.

 

[AlterEgo]

This is the shot which I always take at Kentish Town West if I want a good one of the Empty Steels. As you can see, the platforms have finished and nothing there can possibly be construed as being questionable.

Without wishing to detract from the purpose of the thread, that shot looks to have been shot from a clearly unsafe position.

 

[embers25]

I was thinking the same which may explain their actions although he may have amazing zoom.

 

[465fan]

Without wishing to detract from the purpose of the thread, that shot looks to have been shot from a clearly unsafe position.

Long Lens chap.

 

[scarby]

While I'm sorry to hear of the way you've been treated by station staff there is no clear way of defining whether you are a rail enthusiast or a terrorist. Would it not be easier for all concerned (including yourself) if you simply followed standard guidelines before taking photo's on railway property?

Strange; I was an active loco spotter in the late 1970s when the IRA mainland campaign was at is height. People took photos everywhere, people went into depots ("excuse me, mister, can we have a look around the depot, please?") and I don't recall anyone ever getting manhandled or told to stop taking pictures. Even of the Royal Train.

What a country.

 

[mralexn]

The way i see it, whats the massive "terrorist" concern?
what do they think the danger is?

i mean, there is a full layout of every single station on National Rail Enquires including photo's and everything you'd ever need to know,

As long as you abide by the rules, ie, letting the platform staff know your there to film / take photos of trains and you stand behind the yellow line and are not causing an obstruction or using a flash, i personally see no problem at all.

 

[starrymarkb]

No Danger, just an opportunity to clamp down on things they don't want. Security claimed when the real reason isn't palatable to the customer. (Some do it at work when customers demand not-for-public numbers from us)

 

[GB]

While I don't agree with the carte blanche terrorism excuse that seems to infest our modern world there by handing moral victories to the actual terrorists, I also do not agree with the counter argument that such people do not use DSLR type cameras nor do I agree with the over used retort "Do I look like a terrorist?". The point of a modern terrorist is to blend in with the surroundings...they do not all wear sandwich boards shouting praise to Allah.

 

[starrymarkb]

The Americans seem to think so, given that a question on the ESTA form is "Are you applying to enter the United States for the purpose of Terrorism?"

 

[RobShipway]

I see this thread has become vastly off course. In the case of London Overground, I received a letter which stated that I do not have to ask permission to take photos, but to abide by simple rules (No flash, No trespass, No staff, No security cameras). This is the shot which I always take at Kentish Town West if I want a good one of the Empty Steels. As you can see, the platforms have finished and nothing there can possibly be construed as being questionable. The staff member stating it was illegal was total tosh, and this has since been confirmed by LO. LO have also admitted that they do not expect their staff to behave the way they did; the area is littered with CCTV and I anticipate that this Assault charge will actually work here, not least because of the sheer gravity of his attack, which was from behind!

As for the Network Rail at London Bridge staff member, this was again totally unjust. He was banging on about how it was illegal and how I had to get a permit (yes, had to, without question). I had about 10 minutes before my train home, and was simply wandering through to get to my platform, and took a shot of a 455 and a 171 if I remember correctly. The Station Manager has since said that it was quite obvious a permit was not required, and the Platform chap saying I needed a permit, "because even the BBC have to have one" was a dreadful likening seeing as their purpose is commercial. I now have full authority of that Manager to continue my practices, and the CCTV will be reviewed today to ascertain the situation. His training, which is centred around customer service, most certainly did not state that he had to be Rude (which he was in his approach), Offensive ("How Long have you been doing this?" "Years" "You are a LIAR"), or above all else touch a person or their property. He deliberately tried to block my lens by hitting it with his walkie talkie.

In both situations, I have been more or less proven right. In the case of London Overground at Kentish Town West, they have accepted my challenge. In the case of Network Rail, the situation is that should my story be correct, they too would be likely to issue a formal apology at the bare minimum.

More responses that go off on a tangent will be most gratefully accepted.....

Having contested and won such arguments in court as a rail enthusiast, you are correct that you do not have to ask permission unless there is a sign on the station that states strictly no photographs. As long as any pictures are taken without the flash going off and the person taking the pictures in no way seeming causes to be in the way of people going about their business on the platform then you should contested.

The only time you maybe or would be contested by a member of the station staff is if you are on the platform on a regular basis taking photos of trains, in which case then you need to be asking permission of the station master.

Even BTP will state to you the above context, the warning comes if you go to the same place to take photos on a regular basis which any terroists have done in the past aka '7th July' bombers. This is why when I am taking photos, you will only ever see me do it every 4 months either at Reading station or another station. This way it cannot be said that it is being done on a regular basis.

 

[TDK]

I would have a look at this. The position publicly expressed by Network Rail is very clear:

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/passenger_services/guidelines_for_rail_enthusiasts.html

IF the BTP do their job properly and provide a report to NR and / or the TOC concerned, there is no reason why action should not be taken against what some people might suggest were zealous staff

Ask a photographer to desist IF there is evidence of an impediment to safety or public access yes, but there is no right to damage private property or even to ask the photographer to destroy the images. Only viewing the images by someone qualified to make the judgement would determine whether there was a likely threat and as someone so rightly pointed out, the committed terrorist is unlikely to be standing on a platform publicly taking pictures.

I do wish people would stop hiding behind what the law does not say and encouraging others to rack-up the perception of a day to day suburban world that is more dangerous than it is.

This works both way with the OP to be honest this video was taken off his site and it seems that the behavior on this clip would bring the attention of railway staff to ask for thees people to move on, after seeing this I shall not be signing any petition, one running on the platform and another over the yellow line with a train approaching - breach of safety I would say - 465fan if you are going to complain and ask for peoples assistance on an open forum you really should not be posting this material on your site :roll::roll:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IfiCCzTNCt8&list=UUdTkIsfn5zVaRm-Mf_4i4yQ&index=6&feature=plcp