People allowed in the cab

[Cowley]

A post which shows exactly why some people should not be allowed anywhere near machinery.
Some other posts from the OP are quoted above, but seem to have been removed. If anyone is in any doubt as to the consequences of overloading the driver of a steam loco, dig out the details of the fatal accident involving a member of footplate crew in the early 1990s (MHR I think it was).

I volunteered on the Mid Hants back then and I do remember being told someone had died on a loco, I seem to remember that he hit a bridge while he was on the tender but it was a long time ago.
I know the rules about who should be on the footplate were totally different back then, which I won't go into on here to protect the not so innocent.
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Can of worms. What happens if you slip on the steps up to the cab?
The issue of child safeguarding too. Never, ever leave yourself alone with another's child, or lift them up, etc.

Mainline railway - it's not an entertainment venue - no one near my cab.
When driving on a preserved railway, i will let kids in the cab, provided that a parent accompanies, does any lifting up and that there is another crew member with me. This is in line with some guidance we were issued with a few years back (written by a retired senior copper).

Worth pointing out that it can be very hard for railway staff to gain cab access when required for work purposes. New qualified drivers, those who've had incidents and anyone ion training aren't allowed to have anyone with them. Can make route learning tricky.
The rule is simple though. Unless there is an operational need for someone to be in a driving cab, there have no business being there. Risk of distraction is significant and acknowledged by all.

Makes absolute sense. Thanks for replying.

 

[Crossover]

Officially I think it has been no for a while. I have seen one recently, though who am I to say whether it was official or not - for all I know, it could have been! All I do know is the guard got a bit of a surprise when they hopped off from the cab on to the platform to rejoin the passenger coach at the next stop!

 

[Flamingo]

I have had a few cab rides years ago but as many others have posted things are much stricter these days and unofficial cab rides are virtually unknown.

Relatively recently I travelled in the rear cab of a grossly overcrowded HST, together with an off duty driver. This was with the permission of a manager.
No Pullman service in the cab though.

Rear cabs of HST's (at least GWR ones) are totally off-limits except for travelling fitters.

The TGS/Luggage Van/Bikeshed/TM Office is the usual spot for itinerant staff when it's that rammed, but they still should have a cab pass and be familiar with the traction type, as the two doors are not locked in transit. (The Buffet Kitchen or Bunk Room (if present) is the other place Staff can go to squeeze away from the madding crowd if no cab pass!)

 

[09065]

For me, no pass = no ride, regardless of position in the company or no matter how important the VIP. However, for example, on a particularity foggy day or during a particularly bad day of low adhesion where I will need as minimal distractions as possible in order to safely drive the train, I will and have refused those with cab passes to be in the cab on those occasions, but that is rare.

Drivers travelling pass on duty are allowed to travel in the cab, but it is not encouraged. More often than not they will travel in the rear cab (if the train is wedged) or in the passenger accomodation.

But Pilotman do not have a cab pass.
Nor do track staff needing to examine the line from a train cab - used here when drivers are really vague with their rough ride reports.

 

[LowLevel]

All HST rear cabs for all operators should be off limits as their remote fire system is liable to kill anyone inside if it goes off - fitters can disable it.

 

[bramling]

Sometimes accompanied by an Area Manger (who would often take over from the driver to 'keep his hand in'), and sometimes not. Happy days!

Nowadays few LU managers, even on the trains side, would by licensed to, let alone capable of, keeping their hand in. There are a few old-school people about still though.
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The report into Cowden had mention of a guard in the cab of the unit that had the SPAD, though as both crew members were killed the exact circumstances will remain a mystery.

Cowden has always been a mystery, and one which I find intriguing.

Despite various rumours, there was never any evidence produced that pointed to the guard actually driving the train.

I've always felt it was more likely down to the driver's comparative inexperience, perhaps combined with the distraction of having someone else in there. Meanwhile there was the fog, combined with the nowadays-well-known SPAD-trap of a repeater signal frequently seen at yellow (in other words a normal part of the landscape and part of the daily routine) combined with something else to cancel out the memory of it, namely the station stop between the repeater and stop signal. Also there was some doubt about whether the AWS was functioning.

For all we know the accident could well have happened even if the guard hadn't been present -- and for all we know the guard could have been just quietly sitting there and not causing any distraction at all. Thankfully, whatever the cause, there are safety systems in place which means it couldn't happen today.

 

[DasLunatic]

So, could a passenger give the Driver of a train a camera at the start of a journey and ask him to leave it running out of the secondman's window? The passenger would collect the camera at the end of a journey. No-one else in the cab and the driver is not seen on camera.

 

[notadriver]

So, could a passenger give the Driver of a train a camera at the start of a journey and ask him to leave it running out of the secondman's window? The passenger would collect the camera at the end of a journey. No-one else in the cab and the driver is not seen on camera.

No electronic devices allowed in the cab switched on.


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[bramling]

I'd like to hope most drivers would be able to maintain concentration with somebody else in the cab.

Much depends on the person who is in there.

Someone with a working trains background (eg another driver, driver manager, traction inspector, etc) will appreciate the demands of the job, and know when not to hold conversation.

The opposite end of the spectrum is an extroverted type who can't keep quiet, worse if they're the type who keeps pointing things out or wanting an explanation about something not directly relevant to the train or job (e.g. what's that building over there?).

Even worse is someone who tries to become involved with the operation of the train. A trains person will know when the driver may value having something pointed out - for example the train is slowing for a red signal which isn't visible to the driver round a curve but which someone sitting on the secondman's side can see has now cleared. Or if a button or piece of equipment needs to be operated on the secondman's side. Even someone qualified on the traction and who holds the relevant licence should ask "would you like me to operate that for you?" before touching anything, no one else should be touching anything full stop.

Another factor is that any conversation inside the cab should be carried out without eye contact, as obviously the driver should be focussing on the road ahead or the controls they are operating. Many people find this unnerving as it's not the normal way of conversation, indeed some may find it uncomfortable -- and indeed the driver himself may also find it uncomfortable as it's basic human nature not to be seen as rude. Obviously trains people will (or should!) fully understand and be used to this, others may not.

Another risk is of incorrect buttons being pressed, particularly if an out-of-course situation develops. Distraction just at the wrong moment could lead to, for example, doors being released on the wrong side.

All this is why it's generally the done thing for people to be accompanied by some form of manager or inspector. They act as a second pair of eyes & ears, and will ensure the visitor isn't a distraction. A decent inspector will also subtly (very subtly!) keep an eye on what the driver is doing just incase. Normally the inspector would pick a driver who he knows is likely to be conversant with having extra people there, for example an instructor or minder. Human nature is such that some drivers are highly capable of having people with them (although no one is immune from making an error), whilst others despite being perfectly competent drivers are simply less suitable for it.

 

[notadriver]

I'm fairly comfortable doing so whether driving a bus, coach or train.


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[HMS Ark Royal]

Had a strange request a few years ago.......

A man (suited) came to my cab at London Bridge and asked if he could cab ride with me to New Cross Gate... this was on a weekday lunchtime....

I asked him for a ID and his cab pass, which he didnt have.....but then he continued to ask to come in the cab... almost begging. Obviosuly i didnt let him in. Its was very odd.......

...I recognised him straight away. He was an actor who played DI Skase in the Bill in the 90s....

He boarded the train anyway and got off at New Cross Gate and then proceeded to cross over the footbridge and on to the up platform.

Iam guessing he was a plant, employed by Network Rail or the HSE to see if train drivers check for cab passes.

That would have been Iain Fletcher

No electronic devices allowed in the cab switched on.


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No electronic devices allowed? Not even that issued as standard with the train or locomotive?

 

[70014IronDuke]

If you were driving a train, and a close friend or family member was using it, would they be allowed to sit in the cab with you or is that strictly not allowed?

I'd say it's not been allowed for decades, and probably not since the very early days of the railways. Not for close friend, family, nor anybody!

Officially.

But this thread is a microcosm of how the railways have changed, at least in the last 50 years. And, within that, I suspect it is microcosm of how society has changed.

Certainly into the 60s, it was common enough for spotters to politely ask if they could "cab" the loco when at a stand in the station - and permission was forthcoming, I'd say, 50% of the time.

Riding was always more problematic, of course. I think the key thing was respect. If you showed respect for the driver, respect that his role as a guardian of the train from a safety and operational point of view was paramount - then they could be open to it, but this involved a risk if there were an inspector around.

At times, armed with a footplate pass in the 70s, I took rides on duty, off duty, and semi-on/off duty. I always sought to show the same attitude: the driver was boss. I said good morning (or whatever), showed my pass and asked if it would be alright to board.

On at least one occasion (it was at Leeds, on the down Thames-Clyde) I told the driver I was not on official duty. Not only that, but my footplate pass was for the LMR, and so not officially valid until .... I'm not sure, Skipton, I think. (I did have a priv ticket to travel, I was not defrauding the company.)

He was fine with having me on board. And that was what I always found. Drivers were, especially if single manned, more than pleased to have someone with them. Thinking about it, I'd say this was because they felt you understood their job - and were aware they needed to concentrate on signals, AWS etc.

And if they got a single or double yellow, chances are the conversation would have switched to what might be in front. Whatever, if the driver had said to me: "Shut up, I need to concentrate on the road,", well, of course I would have accepted that without a second thought.

And this is where, I suspect, it is different today. There is not the general respect that was far more the norm in those days.

I was never refused joining, and certainly never experienced any antipathy from drivers during or at the end of a run - it was always a friendly cheerio, shake of hands and see you again perhaps. Of course, that could be because I was thick, I suppose. But i'm pretty sure that if someone was considered a pain when in the cab, if the driver didn't have the will to simply tell you to get out, word would still have soon got round, and things would be said.

It was interesting - if you were coming from the regional or divisional HQ, from memory, you always needed a footplate inspector with you when on official duty in the cab (and, obviously, with a pass) - but when working from a depot, you were allowed to travel alone. I presume that was somehow in the rules: I'd never thought about this until now.

Things were certainly more liberal then. I remember, when on training with a footplate inspector, we went down to Bristol. The inspector, being from Nottingham Division, he too only had an LMR pass - but we spoke to the driver of a Cl 47 on a Paddington train, and went back to Nottingham via PAd and St Pancras. Happy Days!

 

[RichmondCommu]

(The Buffet Kitchen or Bunk Room (if present) is the other place Staff can go to squeeze away from the madding crowd if no cab pass!)

Just out of curiosity what is the Bunk Room?

 

[ComUtoR]

But Pilotman do not have a cab pass.

They are there under rulebook instruction, same with a "competent person" There is a difference between someone who would need a cab pass and someone who is authorised to be there.

Nor do track staff needing to examine the line from a train cab - used here when drivers are really vague with their rough ride reports.

Track staff can be refused. Track staff (at least down my way) typically carry a Yellow Pass.

Just thought of another circumstance where not every visitor would need a cab pass
Ooooooh just thought of another (they have a very special "pass")

 

[cjmillsnun]

The emergency brake can be applied from this location and that's just for starters. No unsolicited cab rides front, middle or rear period. You may be able to arrange one through senior management as others have already indicated. Other than that no means no.

To be fair on a lot of stock, the emergency brake can be operated from the toilets using a passcom handle. That said, the cab is not somewhere a passenger or anyone unauthorised should be

 

[bramling]

They are there under rulebook instruction, same with a "competent person" There is a difference between someone who would need a cab pass and someone who is authorised to be there.



Track staff can be refused. Track staff (at least down my way) typically carry a Yellow Pass.

Just thought of another circumstance where not every visitor would need a cab pass
Ooooooh just thought of another (they have a very special "pass")

ORR inspector?

 

[Flamingo]

Just out of curiosity what is the Bunk Room?

The little "locker room" beside the kitchen on HST's with a kitchen, between the kitchen and First Class. It has a few lockers for train crew to put coats, a bench seat for two (or three if VERY friendly), a table, and a PA-Driver/Guard comma handset. It's used for crew to lock their bags away, and serves as the TM's office when the TM is based at that end of the train, or for CH's to hide away, especially if they are not working that train. Passengers usually are not allowed to travel in it, but I have sat the elderly or infirm in it on crush-loaded sets when there was no other option.

 

[ComUtoR]

ORR inspector?

I was thinking about HMRI. Same dudes ?

There is another colour that allows access with guests I'm sure you know it

 

[PermitToTravel]

Ooooooh just thought of another (they have a very special "pass")

A warrant card?

 

[richieb1971]

Apart from videos online, even people i've subscribed to online who have uploaded videos of cab riding.. I've got an old friend who worked the food/drinks trolley from Bedford to Brighton. Once he hitched a ride on an ECS from Brighton in the cab, had no pass or anything.. In fact he was invited in the cab since it was an ECS and he wouldn't have had any company in the train alone.

So obviously circumstances do occur where someone can be in the cab.

In an old Jim'l fix it there were 3 people in the HST cab in one program.

 

[bramling]

Apart from videos online, even people i've subscribed to online who have uploaded videos of cab riding.. I've got an old friend who worked the food/drinks trolley from Bedford to Brighton. Once he hitched a ride on an ECS from Brighton in the cab, had no pass or anything.. In fact he was invited in the cab since it was an ECS and he wouldn't have had any company in the train alone.

So obviously circumstances do occur where someone can be in the cab.

In an old Jim'l fix it there were 3 people in the HST cab in one program.

In times past it used to be quite common for staff to ride in the front on empty moves, almost standard practice for the guard to ride with the driver.

Obviously still just as much risk of distraction. But one does have to consider it was a way for other staff to learn about the driving grade and the railway in general, this in itself bringing some benefit to the industry.
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I was thinking about HMRI. Same dudes ?

There is another colour that allows access with guests I'm sure you know it

HMRI is now ORR. Can add RAIB to that subset too.

Police officer with their warrant card and in execution of their duty? Ambulance or fire brigade under same circumstances. (Have certainly taken fire brigade in cabs when investigating reports).

 

[ComUtoR]

So obviously circumstances do occur where someone can be in the cab.

I think you totally and utterly misunderstand. Just because it happens. Does not mean its allowed.

In an old Jim'l fix it there were 3 people in the HST cab in one program.

Er..........

 

[Flamingo]

In an old Jim'l fix it there were 3 people in the HST cab in one program.

Of course there was three people. Would you have got in a train cab on your own with Jimmy Saville?

 

[Islineclear3_1]

I remember the days when as a very young man, I was handed the controls of a 1951 control 4CEP to drive 20 odd miles to Dover Marine. A bit different from a suburban EPB One could turn the odd blind eye back then...

 

[Zerothebrake!]

Were any of them dead?

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Were any of them dead?

? What do you mean?

 

[DelW]

Just a couple of years ago, I was the only passenger on a train on an obscure stretch of line which only has an infrequent passenger service. We were stopped at signals for an extended period, so the driver came back from the cab to tell the guard (who was sitting opposite me) what the delay was. He saw me trying not very successfully to take a forward facing photo from a side window (there were no opening windows), and, after chatting for a few minutes, invited me back to the cab with him to take my photos through the windscreen.

When the signal cleared, he offered to let me stay up front for the couple of miles at fairly low speed back to the main line junction, which I was very pleased to accept! He told me a bit about the way the line was worked, then as we neared the junction, he asked me to go back into the passenger saloon, which of course I did.

It was a very interesting ride, and I got some good photos, but I've never risked putting any of them on the web in case the embedded date & time data identified the working and caused trouble for the driver.

 

[amarshe]

Just under 20 years ago I woke up in Edgware aboard the last train from central London, i.e. around midnight.

The driver asked where I was going and as luck would have it, Golders Green was my destination - it transpired he was taking it back to the depot there.

Whilst I wasn't in the cab for the full journey, near the end another member of staff invited me into the cab for the last few minutes of the journey and I alighted from the cab doors.

Gave the station staff a bit of a fright, as they were locking up and didn't know where I'd come from

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

Just a couple of years ago, I was the only passenger on a train on an obscure stretch of line which only has an infrequent passenger service. We were stopped at signals for an extended period, so the driver came back from the cab to tell the guard (who was sitting opposite me) what the delay was. He saw me trying not very successfully to take a forward facing photo from a side window (there were no opening windows), and, after chatting for a few minutes, invited me back to the cab with him to take my photos through the windscreen.

When the signal cleared, he offered to let me stay up front for the couple of miles at fairly low speed back to the main line junction, which I was very pleased to accept! He told me a bit about the way the line was worked, then as we neared the junction, he asked me to go back into the passenger saloon, which of course I did.

It was a very interesting ride, and I got some good photos, but I've never risked putting any of them on the web in case the embedded date & time data identified the working and caused trouble for the driver.

Was it the Goole - Leeds service by any chance?

 

[E&W Lucas]

Much depends on the person who is in there.

.

Nail, head.
Having had the joys of "footplate experiences" whilst driving for a preserved railway, I can absolutely confirm that some members of the human race should not be allowed anywhere near moving machinery. You can put all the procedures in place that you want; some people are just have the wrong temperament to be anywhere near a footplate, even in a heritage setting, never mind the main line.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

. I've got an old friend who worked the food/drinks trolley from Bedford to Brighton. Once he hitched a ride on an ECS from Brighton in the cab, had no pass or anything.. In fact he was invited in the cab since it was an ECS and he wouldn't have had any company in the train alone.

When has there ever been a trolley on those services?