Pendolino Refurbishment?

[All Line Rover]

How about under the seats, as per the FGW HSTs?

One socket under every two seats is desperately required as an absolutely minimum, given that the few tables available are always taken on any service that is mildly busy. Some passengers pay over £300 for a return ticket and can't even plug their phone in! Absolute lunacy.
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That would remove compatibility between 11- and 9-car units when they end up working each others' diagrams.

Coach G is the quietest First Class coach, given it is the last one to be reserved. Virgin could simply change it to the 'unreserved' First Class coach on 11-car units. I don't see the problem. In fact I think converting Coach G to Standard Class would be an excellent idea. It would increase Standard Class capacity by approximately 25%, First Class would rarely be affected (save for severe disruption, I have never traveled on a service where First Class has been over 75% full), and relatively little expenditure would be required.

 

[Dave1987]

Oh not this again.

All Pendolinos around the world have the small windows, even the ones built in the 1980s. It's nothing to do with planes or anything, it is an integral part of the design by Fiat that was supposedly required because of the tilt profile.

Also I don't see how you could change the size of windows on a train without basically rebuilding the whole carriage, which would be stupidly expensive (probably would be cheaper to buy new trains).

Considering most of the "airline" seat have no window at all do I pressume most people nowadays are not interested in looking out of the windows? Isn't it sad that people are more interested in looking at their Ipads and are perfectly happy to travel in a box for hours.

By the way I have no interest in heritage stock just hate travelling on trains that have no luggage space and make you feel like you are travelling in a box due to the lack of natural light! They may be fast trains but they are not designed for passenger comfort!

 

[Peter Mugridge]

They may be fast trains but they are not designed for passenger comfort!

Pendolinos do have two advantages:

1) They are fast.

2) They make the Voyagers look luxurious.

 

[Helvellyn]

That would remove compatibility between 11- and 9-car units when they end up working each others' diagrams.

Only compatibility between First Class. If a 9-car Pendolino turns up on an 11-car digaram there are two less Standard Class coaches! At least with the suggestion made it would be one less coach of each Class.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Considering most of the "airline" seat have no window at all do I pressume most people nowadays are not interested in looking out of the windows? Isn't it sad that people are more interested in looking at their Ipads and are perfectly happy to travel in a box for hours.

Why is that in anyway sad? I'm working in New York at the moment and think nothing of spending seven hours in a steel tube between Heathrow and NYC. More often than not watching a film on a tablet is far more interesting than gawping out the window. This may not be your cup of tea but it doesn't give you the right to describe others as sad. Each to their own I say. Not only that but customers would much rather have a seat with no view rather than no seat at all.

 

[dk1]

Just got my new ipad so im happy with a wall seat from now on to rid me of the sunlight

 

[Dave1987]

Why is that in anyway sad? I'm working in New York at the moment and think nothing of spending seven hours in a steel tube between Heathrow and NYC. More often than not watching a film on a tablet is far more interesting than gawping out the window. This may not be your cup of tea but it doesn't give you the right to describe others as sad. Each to their own I say. Not only that but customers would much rather have a seat with no view rather than no seat at all.

Well why provide any windows at all then? When I travel on them I feel very cramped. I just feel that it is sad the way that priorities of the modern passenger have changed. People are more interested in power sockets and wifi than anything else. Never mind I'm obviously in the minority in wanting a window to watch the world go by. Bring on the windowless steel tubes of the future!

Also the pendo's have virtually no luggage space as the overhead racks are so tiny you can't fit anything on them.

 

[cjmillsnun]

Oh not this again.

All Pendolinos around the world have the small windows, even the ones built in the 1980s. It's nothing to do with planes or anything, it is an integral part of the design by Fiat that was supposedly required because of the tilt profile.

Also I don't see how you could change the size of windows on a train without basically rebuilding the whole carriage, which would be stupidly expensive (probably would be cheaper to buy new trains).

So why were APT-P's windows a decent size? Why are the windows on a Mk4 coach a decent size? Both were built with a tilt profile. Something doesn't wash there.

 

[edwin_m]

Even Voyager windows are a decent size! Likely to be down to the design practices behind the Pendolinos rather than anything to do with the laws of physics.

 

[Eagle]

So why were APT-P's windows a decent size? Why are the windows on a Mk4 coach a decent size? Both were built with a tilt profile. Something doesn't wash there.

Because the APT-P isn't a Pendolino? I don't know, ask Fiat or Alsthom why they thought small windows were necessary, when as you say they're not.

 

[MCR247]

Even Voyager windows are a decent size! Likely to be down to the design practices behind the Pendolinos rather than anything to do with the laws of physics.

Pendolinos tilt more than 221s

 

[SprinterMan]

Pendolinos tilt more than 221s

But not as much as an APT...

 

[RichmondCommu]

Well why provide any windows at all then? When I travel on them I feel very cramped. I just feel that it is sad the way that priorities of the modern passenger have changed. People are more interested in power sockets and wifi than anything else. Never mind I'm obviously in the minority in wanting a window to watch the world go by. Bring on the windowless steel tubes of the future!

Well yes I agree that you are in the minority and I would hope that you would agree that all TOC's should go with what the majority demand. Progress is progress and you would be foolish to stand in the way of it.

 

[Dave1987]

Well yes I agree that you are in the minority and I would hope that you would agree that all TOC's should go with what the majority demand. Progress is progress and you would be foolish to stand in the way of it.

I wouldn't call it progress to be honest. The fact that the Germans have ICE trains that have lovely big windows and all the luxuries you are after and they can travell faster than a pendo!! The fact we have to have trains that tilt to go 125mph which means we have to have such horribly designed trains as the pendo's tells me we are way way behind the rest. It really does amaze me that people are willing to accept the lack of windows and luggage space all because you want to go 125mph and want power sockets and wifi. I find the Chiltern 168's a much much more pleasant travelling experience than the pendo's. Plus they have power sockets at every seat!

 

[rebmcr]

The ICE crash was a lot worse than the 390 crash, though.

 

[RichmondCommu]

I wouldn't call it progress to be honest. The fact that the Germans have ICE trains that have lovely big windows and all the luxuries you are after and they can travell faster than a pendo!! The fact we have to have trains that tilt to go 125mph which means we have to have such horribly designed trains as the pendo's tells me we are way way behind the rest. It really does amaze me that people are willing to accept the lack of windows and luggage space all because you want to go 125mph and want power sockets and wifi. I find the Chiltern 168's a much much more pleasant travelling experience than the pendo's. Plus they have power sockets at every seat!

Pendolinos are restricted to 125 mph by Network Rail. ICE trains cannot tilt. Whether it amazes you or not customers have better things to do than gawp out the window. How you can find the 168's a more pleasurable experience is beyond me given all the noise that their engines make.

Once again Dave you neglect to mention the extra seats. Clearly you would rather that more people stood so that others should enjoy a view?

 

[HSTEd]

ICE-Ts can however tilt.

Additionally Super Voyagers can go 125mph and are able to tilt, which seems to indicate that there are no major structural reasons that 125mph stock should not be able to have big windows and be safe.

While the Pendolinos were originally specced for 140mph the ICE-Ts are also so specced and have far larger windows in comparison to the size of the frame (so even after accounting for the larger loading gauge).
It would seem that the windows on the Pendolinos are merely a styling choice by FIAT (who apparently have always put such windows on Pendolinos).

 

[Eagle]

Again, 221s don't tilt as much as 390s, and so are wider.

However, ICETs do tilt as much as 390s, but again the more generous continental gauge makes them wider.

 

[edwin_m]

The ICE crash and the 390 crash are not comparable.

There have been plenty high speed derailments with no collision and the train has been remarkably undamaged and survivable, even with Mk3 and older stock. Grayrigg was of this type and the relatively low level of injuries doesn't prove anything about the survivability of a 390 compared with older stock.

However if the train runs into an obstacle such as another train or even a tree (Polmont) then the results are always more severe. At Eschede the train became wedged under a fallen bridge and the coaches behind this obstruction were moreorless destroyed.

 

[Dave1987]

Pendolinos are restricted to 125 mph by Network Rail. ICE trains cannot tilt. Whether it amazes you or not customers have better things to do than gawp out the window. How you can find the 168's a more pleasurable experience is beyond me given all the noise that their engines make.

Once again Dave you neglect to mention the extra seats. Clearly you would rather that more people stood so that others should enjoy a view?

I don't see how larger windows affect the amount of seats. If seats were such a massive issue then why does a pendo have a full shop instead of a buffet, and also have another drink type dispenser further down standard class, which takes up more seating area. Also why down they have 4 first class carriages? If seats were such a big thing why are you not complaining about these things? But I still don't see how the size of the windows has any bearing on seating capacity.

On the 168, they are not noisy at all, they have very comfy wide seats, plenty of luggage space and decent sized overhead racks. They also have the must have luxury of power sockets and wifi.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

There was an similar outcry when BR introduced Mk2e/f and HST stock because the windows were smaller than previous stock.
BR said the higher cill was a design feature to improve the view at high speed by removing the lower part where the landscape rushes past in a blur.
It was supposed to be "more restful on the eyes".
I think the Pendolino design has some mix of structural and aesthetic reasoning behind it.
Voyagers may have bigger windows, but they are not as nice to ride in.

 

[junglejames]

Even Voyager windows are a decent size! Likely to be down to the design practices behind the Pendolinos rather than anything to do with the laws of physics.

Its all down to how Alstom design their tilting stock. Not helped by the fact they are aluminium construction of course.

Bendy Pendies have frames running the length of the coaches, directly above and below the windows. These are what stops the windows being any taller.
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Again, 221s don't tilt as much as 390s, and so are wider.

However, ICETs do tilt as much as 390s, but again the more generous continental gauge makes them wider.

221s are made of steel. Hence no need for such restrictive frames as needed on aluminium bodied stock.
ICE-Ts also are not built by Alstom. Hence perhaps the manufacturer (Siemens?) have found a better way of complying with structural safety regulations.
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Pendolinos are restricted to 125 mph by Network Rail. ICE trains cannot tilt. Whether it amazes you or not customers have better things to do than gawp out the window. How you can find the 168's a more pleasurable experience is beyond me given all the noise that their engines make.

Once again Dave you neglect to mention the extra seats. Clearly you would rather that more people stood so that others should enjoy a view?

A better designed body/ interior does not mean you have to take seats out. Not by any stretch of the imagination.

Now we all know it is not possible to change the body style now (hence we all know you wont be able to increase the percentage of seats with a view at this sage). But what some people are saying, is it would have been nice to have had tilting trains that allowed a better line up of seats and windows, and windows that were actually of a decent size. This could have been very possible, but unfortunately Virgin went with Alstom, and once Alstoms design was squeezed into our loading gauge.... Well, we all know what happened.

 

[Zoe]

Voyagers may have bigger windows, but they are not as nice to ride in.

What makes the 390s nicer to ride in than the Voyagers?

 

[cjmillsnun]

What makes the 390s nicer to ride in than the Voyagers?

Less vibration, more space (through more coaches), better tilt mechanism, better ride.

Although still not as good as other stock either in the UK, France or Germany.

 

[Dave1987]

I think comparing pendo's and voyagers its more a case of deciding which is worse. They are both a really badly designed.

 

[monty9120]

I wouldn't call it progress to be honest. The fact that the Germans have ICE trains that have lovely big windows and all the luxuries you are after and they can travell faster than a pendo!! The fact we have to have trains that tilt to go 125mph which means we have to have such horribly designed trains as the pendo's tells me we are way way behind the rest. It really does amaze me that people are willing to accept the lack of windows and luggage space all because you want to go 125mph and want power sockets and wifi. I find the Chiltern 168's a much much more pleasant travelling experience than the pendo's. Plus they have power sockets at every seat!

the best journey i have ever had is a chiltern 168. the seats are wicked the rides smooth

only issue is the chiltern trains seem to be a magnet for screaming kids. most of there trains are packed and just look like a cattle market

 

[SkinnyDave]

I really like the Pendolinos but I cant agree with them letting them come into service and expect people to pay the fares they do to get to their seat and find out they can't see out a window.
That is not on..
I am glad they are sorting out the toilet issue as this has been main issue for years.
Six car pendolinos for future Scottish to North West routes are also a good idea as running a fleet of 350s is not long term thinking on this route

 

[Geezertronic]

Never had a problem with the 390s or the limited/no view seats. I think too much is made of their "issues" to be honest, but it gives people something to moan about I suppose. They get me from A to B quickly and safely and that is all I care about

 

[Lrd]

Whats the point in the windows when all you'll see is either the ground whizzing past or the sky flying past as you tilt round the many bends?

 

[RichmondCommu]

I don't see how larger windows affect the amount of seats. If seats were such a massive issue then why does a pendo have a full shop instead of a buffet, and also have another drink type dispenser further down standard class, which takes up more seating area. Also why down they have 4 first class carriages? If seats were such a big thing why are you not complaining about these things? But I still don't see how the size of the windows has any bearing on seating capacity.

As I recall your original point was that some of the airline style seats don't match up with the windows. Matching up seats with windows would surely reduce the number of seats which can only be a bad thing.

In terms of the shop, as I never buy food and drink on the train (even with my business account) I would agree that this is a waste but clearly other customers do buy provisions on the train. In terms of the drink dispenser this makes sense as it's more convenient for customers.

Finally, regarding first class Virgin make a lot of money from first class customers during the week and they are not going to change something that makes money. I would agree that on some services four first class carriages is excessive but with permanent formations this not going to change.

In all fairness I don't think you would ever find a Virgin customer who would prioritise having a seat with a view over no seat at all. Not to mention that the wonderful Pendolinos are fast and safe. As a traveller what more could you want?
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I really like the Pendolinos but I cant agree with them letting them come into service and expect people to pay the fares they do to get to their seat and find out they can't see out a window.
That is not on..

In all fairness though, for many customers the fact that they can't see out the window is very low down on their list of priorities. In fact from my own personal experience many don't even notice.