Pendolino Refurbishment?

[SkinnyDave]

Modern Railways magazine has a piece on Virgin's franchise extension.
Does anyone know when the refurbishment of the 390s take place?
Apparently toilets are getting worked on finally

 

[dk1]

Yeah i see big job on the Pendos but less so on Voyagers. 135mph running appears to be raising its head again too!

 

[SkinnyDave]

I think they are pushing for the Baby pendos sooner rather than later hence they are not doing a lot of work on Voyagers.
Glasgow to Manchester moved onto ICWC is something I've been bleating on about but they would need stock

 

[aylesbury]

The toilets on Pendelinos are going to be improved as are the vestibules, lighting ,and kitchen equipment.Lets hope the pong is gone for good.

 

[WatcherZero]

Timeline will be dependent on negotiations over the franchise extension and what investment the Governments willing to put into the various temporary franchise extensions. Virgin are keen to bring in some of the investment they included in the wider bid and the other franchises too dont want four years of status quo with defered investment, however the Statement of Funds to NR and various other franchise investments the Dft already budgeted the income from retendered lower subsidy/higher franchise payments which will now have evaporated i.e. the Dft now has a hole in its budget.

 

[CJ]

If they were to make 'Baby Pendos', how many carriages would they have?

 

[MCW]

If they were to make 'Baby Pendos', how many carriages would they have?

probably 4 or 5 at my guess?

 

[dk1]

probably 4 or 5 at my guess?

Thought it was six.

 

[Lrd]

If they were to make 'Baby Pendos', how many carriages would they have?

Six is the number mentioned quite often on these forums.

 

[ainsworth74]

Six is the number mentioned quite often on these forums.

I thought it was the number in either Virgin's or First's plans as well?

 

[Lrd]

I thought it was the number in either Virgin's or First's plans as well?

Which is probably why it's mentioned quite often.

 

[transmanche]

I thought it was the number in either Virgin's or First's plans as well?

Definitely in Virgin's plans.

We would replace all of the Voyager trains with 21 6-car 'Baby Pendolinos' which would mean no diesel operation over electrified lines

 

[dk1]

21x6-car Baby Pendos sounds like a sensible WCML dream come true. Lets hope Virgin pull it out of the bag.

 

[transmanche]

21x6-car Baby Pendos sounds like a sensible WCML dream come true. Lets hope Virgin pull it out of the bag.

With a few extra for Manchester-Scotland services (which would then transfer to the ICWC franchise).

 

[CJ]

21x6-car Baby Pendos sounds like a sensible WCML dream come true. Lets hope Virgin pull it out of the bag.

Yeah, it certainly does.
What I'm wondering is, if they do take back the Glasgow/Edinburgh - Manchester service, would they continue to serve/terminate at Manchester Airport like TPE are doing, or would they terminate at Piccadilly instead?

 

[HSTEd]

It's very difficult to terminate a train at Manchester Picadilly coming from the North, since you end up on the paired through platforms (I wouldn't advise it even once the two new platforms come into being later on).

 

[transmanche]

It's very difficult to terminate a train at Manchester Picadilly coming from the North, since you end up on the paired through platforms (I wouldn't advise it even once the two new platforms come into being later on).

Surely it would be no different to the ATW services from/via Chester which already terminate at Piccadilly?

 

[Eagle]

Surely it would be no different to the ATW services from/via Chester which already terminate at Piccadilly?

Which will probably get extended through to the Airport anyway once all the Northern Hub stuff is complete.

Basically, the fewer services terminating on the throughs at Piccadilly, the better.

 

[edwin_m]

Likely to continue through to the Airport. It's an important market for the operator, and terminating anything at Piccadilly from the west is difficult.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Likely to continue through to the Airport. It's an important market for the operator, and terminating anything at Piccadilly from the west is difficult.

It's a difficult one to call.
TPE wouldn't be keen to give up a flagship route without proper franchise remapping (including agreeing the NT/TPE succession).
Then there's what it does to the whole Manchester-Preston-Blackpool/Cumbria corridor.
Virgin will want fast services with few stops, and would probably prefer to operate Crewe-Manchester-Preston-Scotland as a loop off the WCML (ie not via the Airport).
Then there are the new VT Euston-Blackpool services to consider.
And the Alliance proposals...

The best incentive for DfT is that it frees up Voyagers for other work.

 

[SkinnyDave]

I was wondering how ICWC would work it as they will want to compete with any air business and TPE currently make a lot of stops on the route

 

[Class83]

Things that would be good, other than additional carriages:

Pendolino:

Sockets at all seats in Standard
On 9 carriage trains make coach G standard class to better balance the ratio of 1st to standard class seating.

Voyagers:

Replace the disabled toilets in coaches B & C with standard toilets and a large luggage rack.
Fit seating in coach D in a similar pattern to coaches A-C. No I don't like panel seats either, but they're better than standing for 2 hours.

 

[Bevan Price]

Which will probably get extended through to the Airport anyway once all the Northern Hub stuff is complete.

Basically, the fewer services terminating on the throughs at Piccadilly, the better.

Might the Birmingham - Manchester XC short workings eventually change to become part of West Coast franchise, continuing through to Scotland, thereby reducing diesel mileage under the wires south of Manchester ?

 

[Eagle]

Might the Birmingham - Manchester XC short workings eventually change to become part of West Coast franchise, continuing through to Scotland, thereby reducing diesel mileage under the wires south of Manchester ?

There aren't any such short workings (except at either end of the day, and obviously you can't transfer those as they're only parts of diagrams), and haven't been since Arriva took over in 2007.

Bear in mind though that the Manchester–Southampton/Bournemouth services will probably become electric in the near future anyway when the electric spine is completed circa 2019. You could feasibly make Manchester–Scotland an extension of these (although that would mean transferring it to the XC rather than WC franchise).

 

[rebmcr]

Sockets at all seats in Standard

Unfortunately, to make the most of the internal space within the tilting profile, there's no room for sockets in the wall. That's why they're all on tables.

On 9 carriage trains make coach G standard class to better balance the ratio of 1st to standard class seating.

That would remove compatibility between 11- and 9-car units when they end up working each others' diagrams.

 

[transmanche]

Unfortunately, to make the most of the internal space within the tilting profile, there's no room for sockets in the wall. That's why they're all on tables.

How about under the seats, as per the FGW HSTs?

 

[Dave1987]

Things that would be good, other than additional carriages:

Pendolino:

Sockets at all seats in Standard
On 9 carriage trains make coach G standard class to better balance the ratio of 1st to standard class seating.

Voyagers:

Replace the disabled toilets in coaches B & C with standard toilets and a large luggage rack.
Fit seating in coach D in a similar pattern to coaches A-C. No I don't like panel seats either, but they're better than standing for 2 hours.

How about proper sized windows and a decent amount of luggage space as both are appalling on current pendo's!

 

[rebmcr]

How about proper sized windows and a decent amount of luggage space as both are appalling on current pendo's!

Their windows are smaller than a Mk3, but far far larger than an aircraft, which is what they primarily compete against. You can still see out of them, and still get a decent view of the scenery (just perhaps not as much of the sky compared to older stock). 'Smaller' doesn't necessarily mean 'too small'.

I wouldn't call that appalling. Not to mention that it's for safety and crashworthiness — windows that are even smaller still would be acceptable for those reasons (e.g. aircraft). There's plenty of heritage tours to cater for nostalgic tastes, but compromising safety for aesthetics on a public mainline service would be insulting every Grayrigg survivor (not to mention the economic and mechanical impossibility of modifying the carriages).

 

[Eagle]

Oh not this again.

All Pendolinos around the world have the small windows, even the ones built in the 1980s. It's nothing to do with planes or anything, it is an integral part of the design by Fiat that was supposedly required because of the tilt profile.

Also I don't see how you could change the size of windows on a train without basically rebuilding the whole carriage, which would be stupidly expensive (probably would be cheaper to buy new trains).

 

[Blindtraveler]

what improvements will bogs and vestibules have made? Guessing things like carpets and seat covers will get done too.