Pendolino Lengthening

[ukrob]

Couple of questions, has it ever been *confirmed* what class the coaches will be? Ie 2 x standard or one standard and one first?

What changes in regulations have we seen in the last ten years (since they were designed and built)? What differences are the new build Pendolinos (and the extra carriages) likely to have to the current fleet? I'm thinking along the lines of disability regs etc.

 

[route:oxford]

Couple of questions, has it ever been *confirmed* what class the coaches will be? Ie 2 x standard or one standard and one first?

Comparing the details of the press release from Alstom with the seating capacity of the current sets and break-down...

I'd estimate that the new 11 car sets will have 3 First Class coaches and 8 standard class coaches.

The 2 additional cars for the existing sets will be Standard Class coaches.

 

[rail-britain]

At the moment the sets are :
5 x Standard (coaches A to E) and 4 x First (coaches G, H, J, and K)

The 2007 review adds one Motor and one Trailer Transformer
The Motor is Standard, with two toilets, and becomes coach F
The Trailer Transformer is also Standard, and becomes Coach G; one end is the same as Coach C the other end is the same as Coach J (albeit with Standard seating)
The original First Class Coaches are then renamed H, J, K, and L

 

[Pumbaa]

I'm pretty sure it was meant to be 2x Standard, although 1.5x Standard and an extra half was also mooted. We'll be finding out in a few months anyhow!

 

[rail-britain]

The original sheet (2006) I have from Alstom made me think that there was indeed one composite Coach, this also meant renaming the coaches would not be necessary as the other two would be merged into them; looks like someone decided against that!
The 2007 revision clearly shows seating, and it is all Standard in the additional two coaches

 

[Pumbaa]

Lovely stuff - thanks RB!

 

[ukrob]

Comparing the details of the press release from Alstom with the seating capacity of the current sets and break-down...

I'd estimate that the new 11 car sets will have 3 First Class coaches and 8 standard class coaches.

The 2 additional cars for the existing sets will be Standard Class coaches.

I would be extremely surprised if they had three units with a different ratio of first to standard!

 

[oliverj8]

At the moment the sets are :
5 x Standard (coaches A to E) and 4 x First (coaches G, H, J, and K)

The 2007 review adds one Motor and one Trailer Transformer
The Motor is Standard, with two toilets, and becomes coach F
The Trailer Transformer is also Standard, and becomes Coach G; one end is the same as Coach C the other end is the same as Coach J (albeit with Standard seating)
The original First Class Coaches are then renamed H, J, K, and L

What about coach I?

 

[ukrob]

I is not always used - for example many theatres don't have a row I either.

 

[90019]

225s don't have a coach I.
They don't have a coach J either.

 

[route:oxford]

I would be extremely surprised if they had three units with a different ratio of first to standard!

It's the only way I could get to the 7420 new seats introduced by the order...

 

[rail-britain]

225s don't have a coach I.
They don't have a coach J either

Very rarely is Coach I used
I used to have a set of INTERCITY Coach letters, there was no I and either O or Q (I can't remember which)
However, the reservation system does allow all letters
The First Class on the ATW Holyhead - Cardiff service is Coach I, it's the only one I am aware of that uses such a rare letter

 

[oliverj8]

Does anyone know when we are likely to see them being lengthened? and which stations and depots are going to have to be modified to accomodate these?

Thanks.

 

[ukrob]

Does anyone know when we are likely to see them being lengthened? and which stations and depots are going to have to be modified to accomodate these?

Thanks.

Edge Hill has already been modified - they will be lengthened there. And not for a couple of years yet.

 

[oliverj8]

Edge Hill has already been modified - they will be lengthened there. And not for a couple of years yet.

Thanks

 

[The Planner]

Most major stations will get away with it with careful placing of the stop boards.

 

[poshbakerloo]

Won't it be hard for them to build coaches to a train that will be over 10 years old?

 

[rail-britain]

not for a couple of years yet

I was under the impression the additional coaches would be ready for next summer, and the complete additional sets just as the current VWC franchise ends

 

[Crossforth]

Most major stations will get away with it with careful placing of the stop boards.

Anybody know which stations will need upgrading to allow 11 car running?

 

[Geezertronic]

Anybody know which stations will need upgrading to allow 11 car running?

According to the Network Rail Route 18 document:

Platform lengthening required at Preston, Wolverhampton,
Wilmslow, Liverpool, Lancaster and Lichfield Trent Valley

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse documents/StrategicBusinessPlan/RoutePlans/2007/R18 - WCML.pdf

Might be a bit of an old document but I assume this information won't change much

 

[Failed Unit]

According to the Network Rail Route 18 document:



http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse documents/StrategicBusinessPlan/RoutePlans/2007/R18 - WCML.pdf

Might be a bit of an old document but I assume this information won't change much

It does say that other stations can be resolved by selective door operation, I can't say I have looked that hard but I would be surprised if Warrington, Wigan, Oxenholme and Penrith could take an 11 coach train, but if they can't then selective door operation may be the solution.

 

[cyclebytrain]

Penrith should be fine (279m platforms both directions) Oxenholme Platform 1 is fine, platform 2 seems to have about a metre slack by my calculations. Lancaster are about 20m short and I have no idea how they are going to extend those (I rarely change at Lancaster, but as I recall the platforms are both more or less islands).
Preston is fine apart from platform 5/6 (about 20m short again). Warrington seems to be about 15m short. At Wigan platform 4 seems OK and platform 6 (just) but not platform 5.

I'm not convinced they can do SDO -two out of three wheelchair spaces are at the far ends of coaches B & J. I assume that at least one of these will be out of use in any SDO operations and I can't see that being considered acceptable. There are problems with access to the bike compartment too, although most cyclists could get a bike through the saloon if needed.

 

[Fincra5]

I'm sure stoke-on-trent will need lengthening. WHen i was there today it didnt look as if it would handle 11 cars.

 

[Drimnagh Road]

Will 57/3s be able to haul 11 coach formations?

 

[Aictos]

Will 57/3s be able to haul 11 coach formations?

What's stopping them? The train manager would just have to advise people to use a particular part of the train as they do with the East Coast HSTs when they serve stations with platforms shorter then the train or just use SDO as the FGW HSTs do.

 

[Pumbaa]

Sorry to drag this up, but it is worth noting that DfT has decided it cannot afford to lengthen all the sets. Only the 62 extra cars on order with the 4 new 11-car sets will be delievered, giving a fleet of 35 11-car and 21 9-car Pendos.

 

[Broken Viking]

.oO(To think: The DaFT could've saved a ton of money on expensive, overweight rolling stock and doubled service speed on the WCML by just ordering in 45 APT-P sets insted... :roll:)

Not only that, but they might've had enough change left over to but a few extra HSTs as well...Or just about afford a two-course meal on an overpriced FGW buffet!

 

[jopsuk]

Sorry to drag this up, but it is worth noting that DfT has decided it cannot afford to lengthen all the sets. Only the 62 extra cars on order with the 4 new 11-car sets will be delievered, giving a fleet of 35 11-car and 21 9-car Pendos.

(sarcasm)because that's not going to cause any operational problems at all, oh no, none whatsoever(/sarcasm)

Anyway, why's DafT paying? Surely it's the bank that owns the ROSCO that pays up front and the franchisee that pays the increased lease and track access charges?

 

[Geezertronic]

Sorry to drag this up, but it is worth noting that DfT has decided it cannot afford to lengthen all the sets. Only the 62 extra cars on order with the 4 new 11-car sets will be delievered, giving a fleet of 35 11-car and 21 9-car Pendos.

Looking at the DfT tender document dated 02 June 2008, this was always the case so it's nothing new but the tender document states the option to build the extra 42 cars should they choose to (not that it's likely that clause will be exercised I would have thought).

 

[Pumbaa]

Looking at the DfT tender document dated 02 June 2008, this was always the case so it's nothing new but the tender document states the option to build the extra 42 cars should they choose to (not that it's likely that clause will be exercised I would have thought).

That is indeed what I was referring to. DafT have now underlined and put that clause in bold!

And yes, I imagine Brum and Liverpool runs will be allocated 9-cars, with 11-cars being given to Scotland and Manchester based on my interpretation of current loadings. Peak time might be interesting though! Especially as jopsuk says when a 9-car turns up instead of an 11!