Penalty fare

[Penny1402]

Hi there,

I’m hoping for a bit of advice regarding a penalty fare my daughter recently received while travelling on Merseyrail, we’ve appealed the penalty twice and will now be on the final appeal so would like to know if I should just pay it for her or appeal again.
She’s a student and was returning back after the summer break. my husband has been seriously ill ( explained in the appeal with no acknowledgement from both assessors) so she had to travel back on the National Express to Liverpool and then catch the train from Liverpool to Ormskirk. She’s never caught the train before as her Dad has always drove her back so she was doing this all alone at 10pm at night. She bought a central zone ticket thinking this was the correct one to get her to Ormskirk but obviously when it was checked at Town Green she was told she didn’t have the correct ticket and was issued with a 03 travel beyond validity penalty. She explained the situation to the inspector and asked if she could just pay the difference (£2.50) as it was a genuine mistake but this was refused.
I’m just really frustrated that a young girl travelling alone at night under the circumstances explained above has been treated like this with no empathy, I understand she bought the wrong ticket but this was a genuine mistake that I thought the penalty appeals service would accept but this doesn’t seem to be the case. The latest appeal has come back with that as she was travelling on a through service the penalty fare will stand.
Any advice regarding this will be very much appreciated!

 

[WesternLancer]

Hi there,

I’m hoping for a bit of advice regarding a penalty fare my daughter recently received while travelling on Merseyrail, we’ve appealed the penalty twice and will now be on the final appeal so would like to know if I should just pay it for her or appeal again.
She’s a student at Edge Hill and was returning back after the summer break. We live in Cornwall & my husband has been seriously ill ( explained in the appeal with no acknowledgement from both assessors) so she had to travel back on the National Express to Liverpool and then catch the train from Liverpool to Ormskirk. She’s never caught the train before as her Dad has always drove her back from Cornwall so she was doing this all alone at 10pm at night. She bought a central zone ticket thinking this was the correct one to get her to Ormskirk but obviously when it was checked at Town Green she was told she didn’t have the correct ticket and was issued with a 03 travel beyond validity penalty. She explained the situation to the inspector and asked if she could just pay the difference (£2.50) as it was a genuine mistake but this was refused.
I’m just really frustrated that a young girl travelling alone at night under the circumstances explained above has been treated like this with no empathy, I understand she bought the wrong ticket but this was a genuine mistake that I thought the penalty appeals service would accept but this doesn’t seem to be the case. The latest appeal has come back with that as she was travelling on a through service the penalty fare will stand.
Any advice regarding this will be very much appreciated!

Hi and welcome

Penalty Fares are actually designed for 'honest mistakes' although when faced with £50 penalty I know it won't seem like that - they are the least worst sanction that can be offered (apart from being let off by the ticket inspector at the time). I can imagine that the Inspector would simply think this is a person who has bough the cheapest ticket available to them (a central zone one) in the hope they can override to a destination outside central Liverpool and not pay for the full journey. I suspect this is the sort of thing they see all too often so genuine errors get mixed up with deliberate evaders and it's not going to be easy for staff to tell the difference. Had they believed it was such an evasion tactic they might have likely reported it as deliberate fare evasion and the cost of sorting that out would be significantly higher than the Penalty Fare sum as it comes with the threat of prosecution.

Anyway...

Although it is wise to have appealed (it prevents them subsequently prosecuting your daughter for travel without a valid ticket) the Appeal process is not about 'appealing to their better nature that the penalty isn't fair', as I understand it, it is an appeal process designed to protect people from Penalty Fares (PFs) that have been issued wrongly in terms of the regulations not having been followed correctly etc. So an Appeal based on the grounds you are saying here IMHO is unlikely to be successful, but that's not to say it might not be worth going to stage three.

However, before you do that it would be wise for you to upload an anonymised copy of the original PF paperwork given on the train (and any other related paperwork you / your daughter has eg the Appeal responses) so PF experts here can check it all. PFs do often seem to be issued with errors on them and that is valid grounds for Appealing. As you have only one stage left, before you use that chance it would be wise to get people to check it here who are experts on this.

I hope this gives you a bit of useful context and a suggestion you can consider if you want to go to stage 3 Appeal.

Be mindful that whilst an appeal is actively being considered the clock is stopped on the prompt payment discount, but that will re-start at the end of each stage. Do not miss the 50% prompt payment discount deadline (an option can be to pay the Penalty fare so as not to miss that, but continue the Appeal process as you would be refunded). Keep proof of any payment made.

 

[Cuthbert]

Also the 3rd appeal goes to an independent Appeals Panel.
Below is a link and scroll down to 3rd appeal drop down box.
You can also search appeals process transport focus.

Penalty Services

 

[Penny1402]

Thanks for your replies. Here is the penalty ticket and the appeal response from today, I’ll try and get the first appeal response as well

 

[furlong]

How old is she? The basic test traditionally applied in the situation of a vulnerable person late at night is if issuing the penalty fare would put her "at greater risk" - so from your description this seems unlikely to be of use in an appeal.

Please upload the complete Penalty Fare - the picture is missing the top and bottom so we cannot tell yet whether or not this fully complies with the regulations.

And please confirm precisely what ticket was held, where and when it was purchased, how much was paid etc. (ticket office? machine? app? card? cash? etc.) - actually a picture of the ticket would help if you have that -
and precisely what journey was made - which station she boarded the train at and the time of the train.

(If you can confirm those details, there might be one or more issuing errors here giving you mandatory grounds for appeal here.)

Did she leave the train at Town Green? If she travelled further, was she sold an additional ticket?

 

[Fermiboson]

It’s actually a surprisingly personable appeal response from Penalty Services Ltd. They’re usually much worse than this.

Full sympathy to OP, but I don’t see any possible grounds for appeal. It is probably worth going for an appeal on compelling reasons anyway, though with the expectation that it will not succeed, simply because appeals freeze the clock on the prompt payment deadline and allows you more time to collect funds. Maybe the £2.50 not being the relevant fare from origin to destination? I don’t know how Merseyrail ticketing works but others would be able to advise if that is a possible technical ground.

Edit: furlough is correct in stating that other parts of the PF may reveal appealable sloppiness on the part of the issuer.

 

[John R]

It sounds as though a penalty fare was the correct decision, and tbh, given what we often see from Merseyrail, better than the alternative, which would have been reporting for prosecution. I don't doubt it was a genuine mistake, but that is what Penalty Fares are designed to deal with.

I'm really not sure why a young girl travelling alone at night would be treated any differently. Whether she was let off, charged an excess fare or penalty fared wouldn't make any difference to her safety for the rest of the journey.

 

[AlterEgo]

From what I can see the penalty fare was correctly and appropriately issued and it should be paid promptly to ensure the £50 discount I’m afraid.

 

[Penny1402]

I’ll ask my daughter to send a full screenshot of the penalty fare and upload when received. I take it there is now 14 days to re appeal again and the fine would stay at £52.50 until any decision on that appeal is made? Many thanks

 

[Cuthbert]

I’ll ask my daughter to send a full screenshot of the penalty fare and upload when received. I take it there is now 14 days to re appeal again and the fine would stay at £52.50 until any decision on that appeal is made? Many thanks

And also the information Furlong asked for.

 

[Watershed]

It’s actually a surprisingly personable appeal response from Penalty Services Ltd. They’re usually much worse than this.

Full sympathy to OP, but I don’t see any possible grounds for appeal. It is probably worth going for an appeal on compelling reasons anyway, though with the expectation that it will not succeed, simply because appeals freeze the clock on the prompt payment deadline and allows you more time to collect funds. Maybe the £2.50 not being the relevant fare from origin to destination? I don’t know how Merseyrail ticketing works but others would be able to advise if that is a possible technical ground.

Edit: furlough is correct in stating that other parts of the PF may reveal appealable sloppiness on the part of the issuer.

If the train was boarded at Liverpool Central or Moorfields (as you'd expect if taking the coach) then the Penalty Fare should have been issued from there to Town Green. For which the single fare, as of the date of the journey, was £7.30 rather than the £2.50 charged.

It appears the inspector has tried to be generous by only charging from the last station of validity, but Regulation 9(2) of the Penalty Fare Regulations requires the fare charged to be:

the full single fare for the journey in question from the boarding station to ... the next station

Accordingly, the Penalty Fare was issued incorrectly - even if done 'in your favour'. In any final appeal the OP may wish to include this as a ground of appeal.

Unfortunately I don't see that the circumstances of it being late at night, or the passenger being a young woman, or the illness of the passenger's father, would constitute 'compelling reasons' why the Penalty Fare should be overturned on appeal. The second stage appeal's rejection of this ground seems unusually well-written.

Ultimately it comes down to the fact that none of these factors prevented the correct ticket from being bought; if the OP's daughter was unsure about the validity of a central zone ticket, she could (and should) have asked when buying her ticket.

There is nevertheless no harm in bringing a final appeal, although if there are any grounds of appeal that stand a prospect of success, I would suggest they are likely to be technical (as referenced above) rather than discretionary.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Oct 2024 ==

I’ll ask my daughter to send a full screenshot of the penalty fare and upload when received. I take it there is now 14 days to re appeal again and the fine would stay at £52.50 until any decision on that appeal is made? Many thanks

There is a 21-day period, following the day of travel, during which the Penalty Fare remains at the reduced sum of £52.50.

The 'clock' on those 21 days is stopped during any period when an appeal (at the first, second or third stage) has been submitted, and restarts when the outcome of an appeal has been communicated to the passenger.

So there are now likely to be less than 21 days remaining duirng which the sum remains £52.50.

The 14-day period for bringing a further appeal is independent of the 21-day period for paying the Penalty Fare at the reduced sum.

 

[Gloster]

I cannot comment on the chances of the third appeal succeeding, but I suggest that you do not delay too long so as to have the maximum amount of time to pay if it is rejected. Quite simply, if you get a rejection be ready to pay the £52.50 immediately in order to get the reduction.

Keep all the payment details safe: there have been very rare occasions when the railway has pursued the matter after a valid payment has been made because they have lost it in their system. All the (very) few that we have seen have been quickly closed by the railway once they are given the payment details. (I am not an expert.)

 

[Penny1402]

How old is she? The basic test traditionally applied in the situation of a vulnerable person late at night is if issuing the penalty fare would put her "at greater risk" - so from your description this seems unlikely to be of use in an appeal.

Please upload the complete Penalty Fare - the picture is missing the top and bottom so we cannot tell yet whether or not this fully complies with the regulations.

And please confirm precisely what ticket was held, where and when it was purchased, how much was paid etc. (ticket office? machine? app? card? cash? etc.) - actually a picture of the ticket would help if you have that -
and precisely what journey was made - which station she boarded the train at and the time of the train.

(If you can confirm those details, there might be one or more issuing errors here giving you mandatory grounds for appeal here.)

Did she leave the train at Town Green? If she travelled further, was she sold an additional ticket?

If the train was boarded at Liverpool Central or Moorfields (as you'd expect if taking the coach) then the Penalty Fare should have been issued from there to Town Green. For which the single fare, as of the date of the journey, was £7.30 rather than the £2.50 charged.

It appears the inspector has tried to be generous by only charging from the last station of validity, but Regulation 9(2) of the Penalty Fare Regulations requires the fare charged to be:


Accordingly, the Penalty Fare was issued incorrectly - even if done 'in your favour'. In any final appeal the OP may wish to include this as a ground of appeal.

Unfortunately I don't see that the circumstances of it being late at night, or the passenger being a young woman, or the illness of the passenger's father, would constitute 'compelling reasons' why the Penalty Fare should be overturned on appeal. The second stage appeal's rejection of this ground seems unusually well-written.

Ultimately it comes down to the fact that none of these factors prevented the correct ticket from being bought; if the OP's daughter was unsure about the validity of a central zone ticket, she could (and should) have asked when buying her ticket.

There is nevertheless no harm in bringing a final appeal, although if there are any grounds of appeal that stand a prospect of success, I would suggest they are likely to be technical (as referenced above) rather than discretionary.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Oct 2024 ==


There is a 21-day period, following the day of travel, during which the Penalty Fare remains at the reduced sum of £52.50.

The 'clock' on those 21 days is stopped during any period when an appeal (at the first, second or third stage) has been submitted, and restarts when the outcome of an appeal has been communicated to the passenger.

So there are now likely to be less than 21 days remaining duirng which the sum remains £52.50.

The 14-day period for bringing a further appeal is independent of the 21-day period for paying the Penalty Fare at

If the train was boarded at Liverpool Central or Moorfields (as you'd expect if taking the coach) then the Penalty Fare should have been issued from there to Town Green. For which the single fare, as of the date of the journey, was £7.30 rather than the £2.50 charged.

It appears the inspector has tried to be generous by only charging from the last station of validity, but Regulation 9(2) of the Penalty Fare Regulations requires the fare charged to be:


Accordingly, the Penalty Fare was issued incorrectly - even if done 'in your favour'. In any final appeal the OP may wish to include this as a ground of appeal.

Unfortunately I don't see that the circumstances of it being late at night, or the passenger being a young woman, or the illness of the passenger's father, would constitute 'compelling reasons' why the Penalty Fare should be overturned on appeal. The second stage appeal's rejection of this ground seems unusually well-written.

Ultimately it comes down to the fact that none of these factors prevented the correct ticket from being bought; if the OP's daughter was unsure about the validity of a central zone ticket, she could (and should) have asked when buying her ticket.

There is nevertheless no harm in bringing a final appeal, although if there are any grounds of appeal that stand a prospect of success, I would suggest they are likely to be technical (as referenced above) rather than discretionary.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Oct 2024 ==


There is a 21-day period, following the day of travel, during which the Penalty Fare remains at the reduced sum of £52.50.

The 'clock' on those 21 days is stopped during any period when an appeal (at the first, second or third stage) has been submitted, and restarts when the outcome of an appeal has been communicated to the passenger.

So there are now likely to be less than 21 days remaining duirng which the sum remains £52.50.

The 14-day period for bringing a further appeal is independent of the 21-day period for paying the Penalty Fare at the reduced sum.

 

[furlong]

Indeed - at first sight it was issued for the wrong amount (and is possibly missing some mandatory wording but that might be present outside the picture) and an appeal would have to be upheld on this basis. However this is complicated by there being no mention of the purchase of any ticket between Town Green and Ormskirk which would constitute a further criminal offence which Merseyrail could still pursue if they can argue that is a separate matter for which they are not responsible. Why didn't the inspector sell that additional ticket at the time? Was it because the passenger agreed to leave the train at Town Green or to buy the additional ticket on their phone app?

 

[Penny1402]

Indeed - at first sight it was issued for the wrong amount (and is possibly missing some mandatory wording but that might be present outside the picture) and an appeal would have to be upheld on this basis. However this is complicated by there being no mention of the purchase of any ticket between Town Green and Ormskirk which would constitute a further criminal offence which Merseyrail could still pursue if they can argue that is a separate matter for which they are not responsible. Why didn't the inspector sell that additional ticket at the time? Was it because the passenger agreed to leave the train at Town Green or to buy the additional ticket on their phone app?

I’ve just looked at the fine by signing into Merseyrail payment page, there is Ormskirk showing on that?

 

[furlong]

That doesn't match the Penalty Fare, but the fact it mentions Ormskirk might be sufficient to head off prosecution risk for the last part of the journey as it provides evidence the company accepted the travel was actually to Ormskirk at the time.

In reality, if you appeal again and succeed on the technicality that the penalty was issued from the wrong station, they'll probably drop the £50/100 penalty but then go outside the rules (as often happens) and ask for a revised fare from the edge of Zone C to Ormskirk, which puts things right.