Penalty Fare Scam

[Johnson Says]

That's what it is right?

On a day out in Birmingham from Bristol with my wife, 6 year old and 1 year old baby, we entered Jewellery Quarter Train Station. I went to the ticket machine whilst my family went on ahead to the platform.

I purchased return tickets to Moor Street at a cost of £6.15. The machine took payment on the card, said it was printing tickets but they did not print. Transaction completed but we did not receive tickets. Ticket office closed as it was a Sunday.

Thought very little of it, just explain to the first human on the train or ticket barriers.

Arrived to Moor Street, went straight up to the first person we saw , explained what happened, showed proof of payment on phone and expected to be let through the barriers.

The individual in question 'Revenue Protection Officer' took us to one side and issued a £100 penalty fare (reduced to £50 if paid within 2 weeks) and said we just had to appeal and they would check machine, if confirmed faulty, the penalty would be cancelled. This was clearly a lie. The individual advised we needed to buy a new ticket for the return journey.

We appealed as directed. Reply one , basically said we should have requested help at Jewellery Quarter automated help points and as we didnt then penalty stands.

We paid penalty to avoid threat of further.

Second appeal, pointing out that our supposed error of not seeking help from automated help point is minor compared to real issue of being defrauded out of
a) the ticket
b) the penalty fare plus a random £3 charge
c) the return trip
And that what on earth is the alternative hypothesis ? That we paid £6.15 tickets then sold it on? Haha jokers
Reply received tonight, 'its the transport users responsibility to ensure they have a valid ticket'

We've had money stolen from us. What is our options for taking this further? A total matter of principle against his absolute scam. I want to pursue this as far as possible because our experience was not fair in a functioning society

 

[WesternLancer]

That's what it is right?

On a day out in Birmingham from Bristol with my wife, 6 year old and 1 year old baby, we entered Jewellery Quarter Train Station. I went to the ticket machine whilst my family went on ahead to the platform.

I purchased return tickets to Moor Street at a cost of £6.15. The machine took payment on the card, said it was printing tickets but they did not print. Transaction completed but we did not receive tickets. Ticket office closed as it was a Sunday.

Thought very little of it, just explain to the first human on the train or ticket barriers.

Arrived to Moor Street, went straight up to the first person we saw , explained what happened, showed proof of payment on phone and expected to be let through the barriers.

The individual in question 'Revenue Protection Officer' took us to one side and issued a £100 penalty fare (reduced to £50 if paid within 2 weeks) and said we just had to appeal and they would check machine, if confirmed faulty, the penalty would be cancelled. This was clearly a lie. The individual advised we needed to buy a new ticket for the return journey.

We appealed as directed. Reply one , basically said we should have requested help at Jewellery Quarter automated help points and as we didnt then penalty stands.

We paid penalty to avoid threat of further.

Second appeal, pointing out that our supposed error of not seeking help from automated help point is minor compared to real issue of being defrauded out of
a) the ticket
b) the penalty fare plus a random £3 charge
c) the return trip
And that what on earth is the alternative hypothesis ? That we paid £6.15 tickets then sold it on? Haha jokers
Reply received tonight, 'its the transport users responsibility to ensure they have a valid ticket'

We've had money stolen from us. What is our options for taking this further? A total matter of principle against his absolute scam. I want to pursue this as far as possible because our experience was not fair in a functioning society

Welcome

Have you made a third stage appeal?

If not do not do so until you get some clear advice from here on how to draft it as effectively as possible.

In the meantime it would help if you could upload copies of the appeal texts you have submitted and the responses you have received.

Blank out any personal details and ref numbers in those documents.

Experts on penalty fares here will probably value seeing those in order to advise you most effectively in terms of options.

Was it only one penalty fare issued? Or 3 (2 adults and one child passenger).

 

[AlterEgo]

Do you actually have a *bank statement* showing you paid? Did you submit this with your appeal?

 

[Johnson Says]

Thank you for your replies.

We have not made the third appeal and would welcome any insight.

I'm afraid I dont have copies of the appeals made, although the above is an accurate reflection. Please see attached responses received.

We received one penalty fare of £100 (reduced to £50) on the day. This increased to £53 after the first appeal, I have no idea to what the £3 relates. We paid the correct fare of £6.15 for 2 x adult, 1 x child, with the baby being free of charge.

Within the first appeal we submitted a screenshot of the credit card app showing payment of £6.15 marked 'Jewellery Quarter SST' with further detail of 'WM Railways'. I can confirm this payment fully processed and was charged.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

I have no idea to what the £3 relates.

£3.00 will be the price of an Anytime Day Single for one person (i.e. one adult) from Jewellery Quarter to Birmingham Stns.

 

[AlterEgo]

Thank you for your replies.

We have not made the third appeal and would welcome any insight.

I'm afraid I dont have copies of the appeals made, although the above is an accurate reflection. Please see attached responses received.

We received one penalty fare of £100 (reduced to £50) on the day. This increased to £53 after the first appeal, I have no idea to what the £3 relates. We paid the correct fare of £6.15 for 2 x adult, 1 x child, with the baby being free of charge.

Within the first appeal we submitted a screenshot of the credit card app showing payment of £6.15 marked 'Jewellery Quarter SST' with further detail of 'WM Railways'. I can confirm this payment fully processed and was charged.

Do you still have a copy of the actual notice you received at the station? Was it just one passenger penalty fared or is it all of you?

There may be further technical angles to any appeal.

 

[Johnson Says]

Do you still have a copy of the actual notice you received at the station? Was it just one passenger penalty fared or is it all of you?

There may be further technical angles to any appeal.

Yes I have the notice.
Its one penalty fare

 

[AlterEgo]

Yes I have the notice.
Its one penalty fare

Please post a copy of the notice here. Remove your name though. Sometimes they are issued unlawfully in the fact they may be filled out wrongly, which can be a more fruitful way to appeal.

 

[WesternLancer]

Yes I have the notice.
Its one penalty fare

Pretty odd the inspector just issued one of you with a Penalty Fare not at least both adults.
It’s possible they were trying to do you a bit of a favour.

The proof of payment is obviously important. But the reason they might not have accepted it is because it does not prevent you buying a ticket and then giving it to someone else, then using the payment proof to claim the ability to travel.
It’s not what I think you’ve done but some fare evaders will do that sort of thing to scam the railway

 

[Johnson Says]

Pretty odd the inspector just issued one of you with a Penalty Fare not at least both adults.
It’s possible they were trying to do you a bit of a favour.

The proof of payment is obviously important. But the reason they might not have accepted it is because it does not prevent you buying a ticket and then giving it to someone else, then using the payment proof to claim the ability to travel.
It’s not what I think you’ve done but some fare evaders will do that sort of thing to scam the railway

Well yes, the officer explained that we could have given our ticket to someone (dont know who, on a family day to a city 100 miles away, for such a small gain) hence that the machine would be checked for faults.
But clearly no one has checked the machine, nor were they probably ever going to.

 

[WesternLancer]

Well yes, the officer explained that we could have given our ticket to someone (dont know who, on a family day to a city 100 miles away, for such a small gain) hence that the machine would be checked for faults.
But clearly no one has checked the machine, nor were they probably ever going to.

Indeed

 

[furlong]

What date was this?

Was there a notice on the machine instructing you what to do if it was faulty?

There is a well-known design flaw with some machines where tickets can get printed but stuck inside instead of falling into the dispenser.

The only relevance of the reference to the Help Point in the response is that they must be accepting an argument from the train company that the fact you did not use it "reasonably demonstrates" that the ticket machine was in full working order.

You don't have a record of what you wrote in your appeals, but I find it strange that the responses don't say they have checked the machines and (a) have identified your transaction and confirmed the machine was working normally before and after (or not), but (b) have no record of any similar faults being reported against the particular machine you used over some stated time period and (c) have preserved and reviewed CCTV which shows (whatever it does or doesn't show).

Note that the way appeals are supposed to work, if you alleged that the ticket machine was not in working order, your appeal must be automatically accepted UNLESS the train company can "reasonably demonstrate" that that was not true. Hence my surprise that there is no mention of such details in their response.

Please upload a copy of the original notice.

For reference, appeal under two grounds, 16(3)(a) due to 6(2)(a) via 6(1) for the machine fault, reminding them how they are supposed to assess such appeals; and 16(3)(d) for the 'I can prove I paid" argument.

 

[Haywain]

I'm not an expert in these matters but noting the date of the incident, it would still be possible to request the CCTV footage that would show you using the machine at Jewellery Quarter station. I think that you should do this as a matter of urgency.

 

[furlong]

Ah yes, I missed that date - 3rd May. So indeed, get a request in immediately to ensure that any CCTV is preserved (for the train company to supply to the appeals body if it continues to contest the appeal) that might show (a) your full journey through the station and (b) the ticket machine and surrounding area for a reasonable period before and after your use (long enough, for example, to determine if there was a repeated fault or if the tickets were stuck in the dispenser and fell out when a later person used it).

 

[AlterEgo]

We also still need to see the original notice.

 

[Johnson Says]

Thanks, I will upload original notice later
Who do I request to preserve the CCTV?
Within my first appeal I mentioned the exact timeframe and that CCTV would corroborate
They obviously have not checked the CCTV

 

[Haywain]

Thanks, I will upload original notice later
Who do I request to preserve the CCTV?
Within my first appeal I mentioned the exact timeframe and that CCTV would corroborate
They obviously have not checked the CCTV

The CCTV will not prove anything on its own, it is providing substance to your story along with records from the TVM. However, you should also understand that the Revenue Protection officer saw in front of him a ticket less passenger and was within his rights to issue a Penalty Fare Notice.

 

[WesternLancer]

Thanks, I will upload original notice later
Who do I request to preserve the CCTV?
Within my first appeal I mentioned the exact timeframe and that CCTV would corroborate
They obviously have not checked the CCTV

Might be via this process

Subject access requests - your data rights

You have the right to see the data we hold about you. You can also request that we delete your information.How to access or delete your informationYou can make a request in one of two ways:

www.westmidlandsrailway.co.uk

 

[SuspectUsual]

I imagine the OP won’t have a lot of time remaining for their third appeal - but we can’t know what the deadline is because we don’t know how long it took to reject the first and second appeals. If the OP can give the dates of the appeals we can work it out

 

[Haywain]

I imagine the OP won’t have a lot of time remaining for their third appeal - but we can’t know what the deadline is because we don’t know how long it took to reject the first and second appeals. If the OP can give the dates of the appeals we can work it out

Penalty Fare issued on 3rd May, second appeal rejection letter dated 24th May. I reckon that's likely to be at least a week for a third appeal.

 

[SuspectUsual]

Penalty Fare issued on 3rd May, second appeal rejection letter dated 24th May. I reckon that's likely to be at least a week for a third appeal.

So enough time, but not lots

 

[Nottingham59]

I imagine the OP won’t have a lot of time remaining for their third appeal - but we can’t know what the deadline is because we don’t know how long it took to reject the first and second appeals. If the OP can give the dates of the appeals we can work it out

The letter dated 24 May states that any further appeal must be received within 14 days of the date on that letter.

 

[Johnson Says]

Here is the penalty fare

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 May 2026 ==

Penalty fare 3rd May
First appeal 3rd May, rejected 8th May
Second appeal 20th May, rejected 24th May
Payment made 20th May

I imagine the OP won’t have a lot of time remaining for their third appeal - but we can’t know what the deadline is because we don’t know how long it took to reject the first and second appeals. If the OP can give the dates of the appeals we can work it out

 

[furlong]

Please upload the complete notice - some mandatory text is missing from the part you uploaded - what comes below? - so we can check it is complete and correct.

 

[Johnson Says]

Please upload the complete notice - some mandatory text is missing from the part you uploaded - what comes below? - so we can check it is complete and correct.

 

[Jim]

Is it still a requirement for the issuer to highlight/circle the appeals part?
When I used to issue them (which was nearly 15 years ago) we were taught to circle that and the last date of payment due when giving them out?

 

[AlterEgo]

Is it still a requirement for the issuer to highlight/circle the appeals part?
When I used to issue them (which was nearly 15 years ago) we were taught to circle that and the last date of payment due when giving them out?

It has never been a requirement to do that under the Regulations.

 

[Jim]

It has never been a requirement to do that under the Regulations.

Must have just been a good practice thing we were taught then! Apologies!

 

[Adam Williams]

Definitely submit a Subject Access Request for the CCTV - the link provided looks like the right place, and do this today if you have not already.

 

[Johnson Says]

Thank you. I have submitted the Subject Access Request, and I think the comments on this thread give me enough guidance for the third appeal