Penalty Fare query

[Polarbear]

I use Merseyrail who operate a PF scheme across their network.

The other day, I arrived at Spital station at 06:45 to find that the ticket office staff hadn't arrived. As there is no ticket machine at Spital, I had little option other than to board my train without buying a ticket. In such circumstances, I would normally buy my ticket at the first available opportunity.

My journey takes me across Liverpool & I have to change at Moorfields. My question is would the time I spend at Moorfields constitute an "opportunity" to purchase a ticket?

The interchange time at Moorfields is shown as 10 minutes. However, you would be hard pushed to get from the platforms, up to either of the ticket offices & back down to the platforms within this time.

Added to this, Merseyrail have been operating an emergency timetable for the last few days, with 30min frequency on most lines. Given the times of the services I use, a trip to the ticket office at Moorfields would probably have ended with me missing my connecting train & having another 30 minutes to wait.

On this occasion, nothing happened. I got to my destination & purchased my ticket then, (this being the first "realistic" opportunity to do so in my book). However, I'd appreciate any feedback regarding what is considered to be a "reasonable opportunity" to purchase a ticket in such circumstances.

Cheers!

 

[John @ home]

I'd appreciate any feedback regarding what is considered to be a "reasonable opportunity" to purchase a ticket in such circumstances.

To try to find out whether the words "reasonable opportunity" have any particular significance here, I tried to read the Penalty Fare Rules and Merseyrail's Penalty Fare Scheme but failed to find that particular scheme on the internet.

I did find:

A Train Company which operates a Penalty Fares scheme will send you a copy of the rules about Penalty Fares and a summary of their scheme if you ask.

So I suggest you start by asking Merseyrail to send you a copy of the Penalty Fare Rules and their Penalty Fare Scheme.

 

[First class]

Merseyrail have "suspended" most Penalty Fares during operation of the timetable.

However, anyone taking the **** or deliberate fare evasion will still be "dealt with accordingly".

 

[scotsman]

However, anyone taking the **** or deliberate fare evasion will still be "dealt with accordingly".

I like the idea of that...

 

[yorkie]

My journey takes me across Liverpool & I have to change at Moorfields. My question is would the time I spend at Moorfields constitute an "opportunity" to purchase a ticket?

The interchange time at Moorfields is shown as 10 minutes. However, you would be hard pushed to get from the platforms, up to either of the ticket offices & back down to the platforms within this time.

10 minutes to get upstairs, buy a ticket and get back down for the next train? I'd say that is not an 'opportunity' without delaying your journey, and you are not obliged to delay your journey.

It is a grey area as to how much time you require though, e.g. if you had a 30 minute connection at Lime Street, that would surely be enough. 10 minutes at stations where the ticket machines are easily accessible from the platforms may be enough.

 

[Intermodal]

Very surprised to see someone who uses the same local station as me! I had an additional query if you don't mind - are Capenhurst, Bache, Little Sutton, Overpool, Ellesmere Port and Chester still considered to not be a part of the penalty fare area considering that they now have ticket machines? Has anyone seen any official guidance on this?

 

[scotsman]

Very surprised to see someone who uses the same local station as me! I had an additional query if you don't mind - are Capenhurst, Bache, Little Sutton, Overpool, Ellesmere Port and Chester still considered to not be a part of the penalty fare area considering that they now have ticket machines? Has anyone seen any official guidance on this?

Unless there's signs up saying it's in a penalty fare zone, a PF issued for not purchasing a ticket at the station is void.

 

[trainophile]

Just out of curiosity, when purchasing your ticket after you have made the journey, do you get the third degree as to why you travelled without previously having bought one? Obviously you are at B and asking for a ticket from A to B, so the ticket vendor's reaction should show whether this is acceptable in the circumstances.

 

[vjm1975]

All the unmanned stations are now in the penalty fare zone on Merseyrail, though the information on board trains suggests otherwise. The penalty fare zone was extended to all stations shortly after the ticket machines came in to operation. There are signs at the stations informing passengers that failing to purchase a ticket may mean them liable to a penalty fare. (Not sure on the exact wording, but there are signs anyway!).

I have seen quite a few operations, especially at Ellesmere Port station where they have done a blitz on passengers leaving the train, backed up by BTP. There are still a few chancers who think Overpool to Ellesmere Port is a ticket toa free ride, but on the whole when ever I have witnessed these clampdowns, everyone seems to have a ticket.

 

[Polarbear]

Just out of curiosity, when purchasing your ticket after you have made the journey, do you get the third degree as to why you travelled without previously having bought one?

In my experience, usually a raised eyebrow, but generally I've found ticket office staff are OK with this. They may have a small whinge about having to issue a ticket that's not from their home station but that's about it!

 

[the sniper]

Just out of curiosity, when purchasing your ticket after you have made the journey, do you get the third degree as to why you travelled without previously having bought one? Obviously you are at B and asking for a ticket from A to B, so the ticket vendor's reaction should show whether this is acceptable in the circumstances.

In my experience, most are shocked that you're even bothering to buy one having 'got away with it' for free!

It can be an issue though if you're in a PF area heading to a station with ticket barriers, as when you turn up wishing to buy a ticket they assume you're only wishing to buy one now as you didn't realise you'd be checked there.

 

[moonrakerz]

Unless there's signs up saying it's in a penalty fare zone, a PF issued for not purchasing a ticket at the station is void.

In my experience very few stations have the correct PF Zone warning notices on display.

4.2.a. Passengers must be fully informed before they get on a penalty fares train or enter a compulsory ticket area that they need to buy a ticket or permit to travel before starting their journey, and that they may have to pay a penalty if they do not.
(Highlighting in original DfT document)

In my humble opinion, many PFs are not valid as the DfT/SRA rules have not been followed by the TOC. (My highlighting)

 

[Clip]

In my experience very few stations have the correct PF Zone warning notices on display.

4.2.a. Passengers must be fully informed before they get on a penalty fares train or enter a compulsory ticket area that they need to buy a ticket or permit to travel before starting their journey, and that they may have to pay a penalty if they do not.
(Highlighting in original DfT document)

In my humble opinion, many PFs are not valid as the DfT/SRA rules have not been followed by the TOC. (My highlighting)

there should be a PF Yellow notice at the entrance to all stations.. Thats what we do anyway.. then maybe one or 2 more throughout the bigger stations

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Something I've just thought of; do barriers count as informing a passenger of needing a valid ticket or permit to travel?

 

[Mojo]

Something I've just thought of; do barriers count as informing a passenger of needing a valid ticket or permit to travel?

Not as far as I'm aware. On most gatelines you're likely to find though a blue sticker under the POD (see pic here) which will either state that passing this point means you are entering a compulsory ticket area, or that boarding a train without a ticket makes you liable for a penalty fare.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Not as far as I'm aware. On most gatelines you're likely to find though a blue sticker under the POD (see pic here) which will either state that passing this point means you are entering a compulsory ticket area, or that boarding a train without a ticket makes you liable for a penalty fare.

I see, thanks Mojo.

 

[Polarbear]

For the record, all the Merseyrail stations I've used recently (including the 4 unstaffed ones) have lots of nice big yellow signs regarding penalty fares being in operation.

It's a great pity the same company doesn't have some equally nice large signs to tell you what to do if (for whatever reason) you are unable to purchase a ticket for your journey.

For me, the modern railway seems to treat all of it's users as potential criminals, rather than the customers that they actually are. To put this into some form of context, supermarkets & shops usually have warning signs about the consequences of shoplifting, but rarely have I seen any shop that displays signs as prominantly as the railway TOC's seem to.

 

[moonrakerz]

there should be a PF Yellow notice at the entrance to all stations.. Thats what we do anyway.. then maybe one or 2 more throughout the bigger stations

Well you see - you are breaking the rules ! Any PFs you impose are probably not legal.

"4.21 Penalty fares warning notices must be displayed at every entrance to a CTA and at every penalty fares station so that at least one notice can be easily seen by anyone joining a penalty fares train (rule 4 of the Penalty Fares Rules). The best way to do this is to place a warning notice at every entrance to the station platforms. The notices must be prominent, easy to read, and easy to distinguish from other notices and the general surroundings. The notices must give the name of the operator, the circumstances in which a penalty fare may be charged and the amount of a penalty fare. To make sure that warning notices are consistent between different operators, they must be in line with a code of practice approved by the SRA. The Association of Train Operating Companies (ATOC) has produced a code of practice which we have approved for this purpose"

"4.23 As well as the fixed notices required by the rules, penalty fares warnings should be shown in the departure information for each penalty fares train shown on customer information screens and indicator boards at stations"

If I can read and understand the rules why can't the TOCs ?

The two nearest PF stations to me that I have noticed of late DO NOT comply with the rules - not just on a technicality, but on a gross failure to display notices/warnings as required !
Also the staff in general do not have a clue concerning the PF rules.
SWT (who manages one station) has PF, FGW doesn't. SWT tell me (in writing !) that FGW definitely does - I tell them it doesn't and show them the other operator's web site which agrees with me - silence ensues !

The rules say that usually ALL operators at a station must have a PF/CTA scheme (usually is a bit of a "cop out" though).
If I were to arrive at this particular station having managed to get a free ride from an PF SWT station all I have to say is that I have just arrived from a non PF FGW station - we all know what a certain Meerkat would say to that !
What makes the whole thing even more stupid/annoying to the honest traveller is that FGW are usually pretty good at on train ticket checking, SWT are not .

 

[jon0844]

I'm pretty certain that Hatfield hasn't got a PF warning sign near the side entrance (on the northern side), which is at the other side of the normal entrance. I may be wrong (or it might have changed) but the last time I looked, the only notice would be quite some distance away and VERY easy to miss. It's also amongst the standard wall of timetables and advertising, so hardly prominent.

In fact, if walking via the northern car park, you'd not necessarily see anything at all.

There are, however, usually stickers on the train carriage windows unless they've been peeled off. Of course, by then you're easy prey for the RPIs.

 

[Clip]

Well you see - you are breaking the rules ! Any PFs you impose are probably not legal.

"4.21 Penalty fares warning notices must be displayed at every entrance to a CTA and at every penalty fares station so that at least one notice can be easily seen by anyone joining a penalty fares train (rule 4 of the Penalty Fares Rules). The best way to do this is to place a warning notice at every entrance to the station platforms. The notices must be prominent, easy to read, and easy to distinguish from other notices and the general surroundings. The notices must give the name of the operator, the circumstances in which a penalty fare may be charged and the amount of a penalty fare. To make sure that warning notices are consistent between different operators, they must be in line with a code of practice approved by the SRA. The Association of Train Operating Companies (ATOC) has produced a code of practice which we have approved for this purpose"

"4.23 As well as the fixed notices required by the rules, penalty fares warnings should be shown in the departure information for each penalty fares train shown on customer information screens and indicator boards at stations"

If I can read and understand the rules why can't the TOCs ?

The two nearest PF stations to me that I have noticed of late DO NOT comply with the rules - not just on a technicality, but on a gross failure to display notices/warnings as required !
Also the staff in general do not have a clue concerning the PF rules.
SWT (who manages one station) has PF, FGW doesn't. SWT tell me (in writing !) that FGW definitely does - I tell them it doesn't and show them the other operator's web site which agrees with me - silence ensues !

The rules say that usually ALL operators at a station must have a PF/CTA scheme (usually is a bit of a "cop out" though).
If I were to arrive at this particular station having managed to get a free ride from an PF SWT station all I have to say is that I have just arrived from a non PF FGW station - we all know what a certain Meerkat would say to that !
What makes the whole thing even more stupid/annoying to the honest traveller is that FGW are usually pretty good at on train ticket checking, SWT are not .

given that most of my stations only have one entrance and those that have more then one - say on each side of the track they each have one that leads up to the platforms. They comply fully with all the legislation so im not sure what your getting at here.

And at my gated stations they all have them before the gates so again where am i not complying with legislation?

 

[Mojo]

I think he's referring to the fact that CIS should announce Penalty fare trains.

 

[Clip]

I think he's referring to the fact that CIS should announce Penalty fare trains.

All our monitors do - even our new scrolling screens.

I just annoys me that some people seem to throw in all TOCS in the same bad bowl as the rest when some of us take great pride in making sure our stations are nice and compliant with everything.. even the ones that dont have much of a service and take up more time and resources then we should give them.

 

[moonrakerz]

They comply fully with all the legislation so im not sure what your getting at here.

There may be stations which only have a single access as you describe, where the rules are followed - probably by default.

My local station isn't a PF one - so no probs; the one that I had problems with, over access to a CTA, has four operational platforms. There is one PF notice on the outside of the main building which might be seen by pedestrians approaching the station - it would not be seen by anyone approaching in a vehicle, as these take a different route. There is one other that is only visible to anyone going on the route (to two of the platforms) where the sign is located, IF they walk backwards !
The bulk of the traffic from/to this station is to/from Waterloo - anyone arriving by car/taxi would NOT seen a PF notice going to from the usual platforms for these trains. The same applies to the local trains, for which this station is the terminus.
There are none in the booking hall, none by the barriers, none on the CIS boards and no announcements are made on the trains.

Waterloo on the other hand, meets ALL of these requirements. If the same TOC meets the rules at one station why should it be incapable of doing that at other stations that it manages - and then penalising travellers for not complying with the rules that it cannot be bothered to publicise properly ?

I do have some sympathy with Clip if his local TOC does comply fully with the rules - my local two certainly don't (I can't speak for his) - and one of them has a well-earned bad reputation when it comes to aggressive attitudes to non-ticket holders.

I fear that PFs have gone the same way as road speed cameras; they were introduced as a well intentioned solution to a problem (which most people initially supported) - they were then seen as a "revenue stream" in their own right, and "b****r" the passenger who had made an honest mistake.

 

[Clip]

There may be stations which only have a single access as you describe, where the rules are followed - probably by default.

My local station isn't a PF one - so no probs; the one that I had problems with, over access to a CTA, has four operational platforms. There is one PF notice on the outside of the main building which might be seen by pedestrians approaching the station - it would not be seen by anyone approaching in a vehicle, as these take a different route. There is one other that is only visible to anyone going on the route (to two of the platforms) where the sign is located, IF they walk backwards !
The bulk of the traffic from/to this station is to/from Waterloo - anyone arriving by car/taxi would NOT seen a PF notice going to from the usual platforms for these trains. The same applies to the local trains, for which this station is the terminus.
There are none in the booking hall, none by the barriers, none on the CIS boards and no announcements are made on the trains.

Waterloo on the other hand, meets ALL of these requirements. If the same TOC meets the rules at one station why should it be incapable of doing that at other stations that it manages - and then penalising travellers for not complying with the rules that it cannot be bothered to publicise properly ?

I do have some sympathy with Clip if his local TOC does comply fully with the rules - my local two certainly don't (I can't speak for his) - and one of them has a well-earned bad reputation when it comes to aggressive attitudes to non-ticket holders.

I fear that PFs have gone the same way as road speed cameras; they were introduced as a well intentioned solution to a problem (which most people initially supported) - they were then seen as a "revenue stream" in their own right, and "b****r" the passenger who had made an honest mistake.

Non of my stations are covered by 'default'

I ensure they are fully compliant as outlined below at all entrances and on the platforms and on the CIS screens. I even know which stations during the summer will have the posters faded by the sun so i make sure i replace them along with the other less frequently.

i even have the local busybody who goes round my stations and picks me up on things - which is annoying - and i accomodate.

the only reason i do this is to lessen the grief that someone who doesnt take pride in their work would get from not paying attention


You may think they act as a revenue stream but when you catch out people who work for the home office who have used an oyster on their long journey for a few years and get a nice settlement from them you kind of think its there for that purpose.

 

[moonrakerz]

Non of my stations are covered by 'default'

I ensure they are fully compliant ..............

Dear oh dear ! I do seem to have upset you...............

My points were NOT directed at you personally, nor your TOC in your area (whichever it may be) if you are happy that they comply - fine !

My points, as I made perfectly clear, were directed at the way PFs/CTAs in my locality were being managed by my locals TOCs. A brief look at the PF stations in my area (which I have used) clearly shows that they DO NOT comply with the DfT/SRA rules. My letters about this receive answers that are incorrect/untrue, and eventually are just ignored - good "customer" service ??
(Another example near me: very busy mainline station single gate line, after which there are steps to one platform or subway to other platform. ONE PF notice in subway, passengers going to London bound platform DO NOT pass a PF notice.)

I am afraid you have adopted the well worn politicians ploy of deflecting ANY criticism of an organisation by vigorously denying something that you have not been accused of.

I don't exceed the speed limit in my car (or try not to, anyway), I am not, however, going to say that no one is guilty of speeding just because I don't !

You seem to be doing a good job in your neck of the woods - do you fancy a couple of months in the wilds of Wiltshire ??

 

[paul1609]

I use Merseyrail who operate a PF scheme across their network.

The other day, I arrived at Spital station at 06:45 to find that the ticket office staff hadn't arrived. As there is no ticket machine at Spital, I had little option other than to board my train without buying a ticket. In such circumstances, I would normally buy my ticket at the first available opportunity.

My journey takes me across Liverpool & I have to change at Moorfields. My question is would the time I spend at Moorfields constitute an "opportunity" to purchase a ticket?

The interchange time at Moorfields is shown as 10 minutes. However, you would be hard pushed to get from the platforms, up to either of the ticket offices & back down to the platforms within this time.

Added to this, Merseyrail have been operating an emergency timetable for the last few days, with 30min frequency on most lines. Given the times of the services I use, a trip to the ticket office at Moorfields would probably have ended with me missing my connecting train & having another 30 minutes to wait.

On this occasion, nothing happened. I got to my destination & purchased my ticket then, (this being the first "realistic" opportunity to do so in my book). However, I'd appreciate any feedback regarding what is considered to be a "reasonable opportunity" to purchase a ticket in such circumstances.

Cheers!

Can you not buy a ticket from the guard on Merseyrail?

 

[nedchester]

Can you not buy a ticket from the guard on Merseyrail?

No, they withdrew that when they introduced the penalty fare scheme across the Network. Those £20 fees mount up don't they..........

 

[RPI]

No, they withdrew that when they introduced the penalty fare scheme across the Network. Those £20 fees mount up don't they..........

Not really, it probably generates about as much profit as normal tickets as PF schemes cost money to implement and operate, for example, more specially trained staff, signs, posters, ticket machines, paying the agent to administer them (such as RPSS or IRCAS) it costs around £3.00 to process a straight forward PF, anything up to £11.00 to process one after appeals etc.
PF's are purely there to encourage people to buy tickets before boarding.

I've heard a mumbling that Northern may be next........ watch this space....

 

[Clip]

Dear oh dear ! I do seem to have upset you...............

My points were NOT directed at you personally, nor your TOC in your area (whichever it may be) if you are happy that they comply - fine !

My points, as I made perfectly clear, were directed at the way PFs/CTAs in my locality were being managed by my locals TOCs. A brief look at the PF stations in my area (which I have used) clearly shows that they DO NOT comply with the DfT/SRA rules. My letters about this receive answers that are incorrect/untrue, and eventually are just ignored - good "customer" service ??
(Another example near me: very busy mainline station single gate line, after which there are steps to one platform or subway to other platform. ONE PF notice in subway, passengers going to London bound platform DO NOT pass a PF notice.)

I am afraid you have adopted the well worn politicians ploy of deflecting ANY criticism of an organisation by vigorously denying something that you have not been accused of.

I don't exceed the speed limit in my car (or try not to, anyway), I am not, however, going to say that no one is guilty of speeding just because I don't !

You seem to be doing a good job in your neck of the woods - do you fancy a couple of months in the wilds of Wiltshire ??

sorry i do get a bit touchy at times but you did quote me..

Would love to move to wiltshire i hear its nice over there

 

[moonrakerz]

Final word on TOCs not complying with the rules:

In the station I first mentioned I was refused access to the platforms as I did not have a valid ticket to travel. To me that is a CTA.
When I spoke to DfT, they informed me that SWT had NO CTAs anywhere on their network !!

(After I demanded to see the duty manager, they let me onto the platform and last week they let me through at the first time of asking. Perhaps the fuss I kicked up did some good after all.)