Penalty Fare query

[swt_passenger]

Final word on TOCs not complying with the rules:

In the station I first mentioned I was refused access to the platforms as I did not have a valid ticket to travel. To me that is a CTA.

As before, wasn't it established that CTAs are actually pretty rare on National Rail, and in any case are not automatically required as part of a penalty fare area?

ISTM you basically decided for yourself it was a 'secret CTA', and then went off on one because they didn't follow the rules laid down for CTAs.

It's hardly surprising the station staff got wound up, is it?

 

[RPI]

CTA or not, the operating TOC has the right to refuse a non traveller access to their station.

 

[moonrakerz]

cta or not, the operating toc has the right to refuse a non traveller access to their station.

No they do not ! DfT stipulates that non travellers AND rail enthusiasts must be given access, in normal circumstances - they can be charged for a platform ticket however, unless they are assisting a disabled person when they must NOT be charged to gain access.

ISTM you basically decided for yourself it was a 'secret CTA', and then went off on one because they didn't follow the rules laid down for CTAs.

It's hardly surprising the station staff got wound up, is it?

I don't recollect seeing you there at the time, which is not surprising, as you seem to have assumed an awful lot in your absence - incorrectly !

I didn't go "off on one" and the station staff certainly didn't get "wound up". I had a lengthy, quite amicable, discussion with the Duty Manager - who was obviously "just obeying orders" and at the end of it let us through the barriers.

 

[John @ home]

they can be charged for a platform ticket however, unless they are assisting a disabled person when they must NOT be charged to gain access.

Very interesting. Do you know whether disabled here means eligible for a Disabled Person's Railcard or disabled according to the Disability Discrimination Act? Even better, do you happen to know of a source for the statement?

 

[Mojo]

Very interesting. Do you know whether disabled here means eligible for a Disabled Person's Railcard or disabled according to the Disability Discrimination Act? Even better, do you happen to know of a source for the statement?

On 'The Manual's page for Platform Tickets, it says:

If customers are not travelling by train and need to enter a 'compulsory ticket area' (for example where there are ticket barriers in operation and they wish to assist someone onto the train or if they are a railway enthusiast) they may need to buy a Platform Ticket. Where sold, they cost ten pence (10p) from the station ticket office. There is no charge to assist a disabled passenger to a train.

 

[swt_passenger]

I didn't go "off on one" and the station staff certainly didn't get "wound up". I had a lengthy, quite amicable, discussion with the Duty Manager - who was obviously "just obeying orders" and at the end of it let us through the barriers.

My apologies to the staff then, I must have got that impression in error from one of your previous posts.

However I still think you are flogging a dead horse on this subject.

 

[RPI]

No they do not ! DfT stipulates that non travellers AND rail enthusiasts must be given access, in normal circumstances - they can be charged for a platform ticket however, unless they are assisting a disabled person when they must NOT be charged to gain access.



.

There is a railway byelaw for "loitering" so yes, you can be asked to leave a station if you have no business there!

 

[Stigy]

There is a railway byelaw for "loitering" so yes, you can be asked to leave a station if you have no business there!

There's arguably a difference bewteen loitering, and being an enthusiast. If somebody is just sitting there and can't account for themselves etc, then they can be asked to leave. If they give a viable reason, then sobeit.

However, if at a barriered station, it's often good practice to speak to staff and explain yourself thoroughly in order to be let through the barriers. If you've got no reason to be there, or the staff don't believe why you wish to be let through, it's their decision not to let you in.

 

[Flamingo]

Stations, at the end of the day, are private property. Anybody can be denied access (even if they have a ticket) depending on the circumstances. Drunks, for example.

 

[scrapy]

I've heard a mumbling that Northern may be next........ watch this space....

I very much doubt Northern will introduce penalty fares within their current franchise. Other than Merseyside and certain lines around Manchester and Leeds, most lines have few staffed stations, and outside Merseyside many are only staffed for a single shift. They would need a huge investment in ticket machines and Northern are more interested in short term profit than investment. Northern do not even have proper revenue teams west of the pennines. If they were to get a renewal of their franchise maybe things would change.

I actually think FTPE would be more likely to introduce penalty fares as most stations they call at have ticket issuing facilities,so would be reletavely cheap.

 

[RPI]

I very much doubt Northern will introduce penalty fares within their current franchise. Other than Merseyside and certain lines around Manchester and Leeds, most lines have few staffed stations, and outside Merseyside many are only staffed for a single shift. They would need a huge investment in ticket machines and Northern are more interested in short term profit than investment. Northern do not even have proper revenue teams west of the pennines. If they were to get a renewal of their franchise maybe things would change.

I actually think FTPE would be more likely to introduce penalty fares as most stations they call at have ticket issuing facilities,so would be reletavely cheap.

they wont introduce PFs across the whole network, a little birdy tells me that the manchester and Leeds area's maybe.............

 

[Deerfold]

they wont introduce PFs across the whole network, a little birdy tells me that the manchester and Leeds area's maybe.............

How far from Leeds? There's an awful lot of stations round there with no ticket-issueing facilities which people may claim to come from if they have or haven't. There's a lot of people would get a shock even where there are - I'm always surprised how many people from Keighley buy tickets on the train (surely they couldn't be hoping the guard wouldn't get round to them?).

 

[yorkie]

... a little birdy tells me that the manchester and Leeds area's maybe.............

Does that little birdy recall the disastrous Airdale PF scheme? If so, that little birdie will know how ludicrous the idea is

 

[island]

How about if some PERTIS machines spring up?

 

[43167]

I remember the short lived Penalty fare scheme on the Airedale & Wharfedale lines, with the permit to travel machines that popped up at every station. Steeton & Silsden even got a proper ticket machine, which got broken into on more than one occasion.