Penalty Fare Notice - Feel it is unjust

[andygb]

Then they seem to be making up their own rules. Report them straight to the DfT and demand action.

Well I was thinking of taking it to my MP, but how would you go about reporting it to DfT - would that be a better line of attack?

 

[najaB]

Well I was thinking of taking it to my MP, but how would you go about reporting it to DfT - would that be a better line of attack?

If it were me, I wouldn't go the DfT just yet. Wait until you've got Southeastern's take on the matter since they can quite legitimately wash their hands of it saying that it's the penalty fare appeals service that's made the mistake.

 

[furlong]

If it were me, I wouldn't go the DfT just yet. Wait until you've got Southeastern's take on the matter since they can quite legitimately wash their hands of it saying that it's the penalty fare appeals service that's made the mistake.

The appeal the OP has made *is* the appeal against Southeastern's decision - the next level of appeal is to the DfT, not back to Southeastern! The scheme itself should be suspended because its rules appear to have been breached at multiple levels. (Failings of system - RPI unware of broken machine? failing of RPI - didn't check whether machine was working before issuing ticket and if unsure or unable to check is supposed to give benefit of the doubt? failing of appeal system - failed to uphold obviously valid appeal and invented reason for rejecting appeal that not only has no basis in the scheme but is in direct contradiction of scheme rules?)

 

[najaB]

The appeal the OP has made *is* the appeal against Southeastern's decision - the next level of appeal is to the DfT, not back to Southeastern!

Unless I misread something (or missed a post... runs off to check...nope, didn't miss one), the OP has been dealing with the 'independent' appeals service, rather than the TOC.

 

[andygb]

Sorry for any confusion here.
My first appeal letter was sent to Revenue Protection Support Services in Portsmouth on 14th March (as instructed on the penalty fare notice.
I then received two letters back (in the same envelope) from the RPSS and from the Independent Penalty Fares Appeal Service on 17th March.
I then appealed again to the IPFAS on 29th March, and received the latest reply back from them on 2nd April, where they decided to throw in the twaddle about "valid connection".
I have spoken to the signalman at my station (he has to open and close the crossing gates) a couple of times about the permit to travel machine, but he just said it is nothing to do with him.
Apart from me using Southeastern trains, I have not corresponded with them at all.

 

[furlong]

For how long has the machine been out of action?

That in itself could be grounds for the suspension of the scheme in respect of that station:

7.2 Rule 13 also allows us to stop an operator charging penalty fares if we think that a scheme is being operated in a way which doesn’t give passengers sufficient protection. There are a number of circumstances where this might be the case, even if the operator is following the rules, regulations and its own scheme. For example, if:
• authorised collectors are put under unnecessary pressure to meet revenue targets, so that they do not use their discretion in cases where the scheme says that they should;
• the ticket facilities listed in the scheme are regularly unavailable because of staff shortages or ticket-machine breakdowns; or
• the ticket facilities listed in the scheme are insufficient because of serious queuing problems.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
For the DfT, people have provided individual contact addresses in the past, but it's probably best to use the website's main contact form in the first instance, as people's roles do change.

 

[andygb]

For how long has the machine been out of action?

That in itself could be grounds for the suspension of the scheme in respect of that station:


--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
For the DfT, people have provided individual contact addresses in the past, but it's probably best to use the website's main contact form in the first instance, as people's roles do change.

I started my course (2 days a week) on Wednesday 24th February and the permit to travel machine was not working then, and has been out of order ever since.
I did however travel up to London on 13th January and it wasn't working then, so I informed the person on the barriers at Waterloo East and he let me go to the ticket office and buy a return ticket.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Just a quick update.
I was in touch with Transport Focus Group last week, and I had a further reply from them which I missed. They have spoken with SER, who have agreed to waive the penalty fare - IF - I send them the penalty fare and then they will deduct the £4.90 for my fare. However, this email was on the same day as the letter from the Appeal Service stating the bit about valid connection, and I have just received a letter this morning asking me to pay £40 - penalty fare plus admin fee.
I am due a call back from Transport Focus so will let you know how I get on.

 

[island]

If they are going to waive the PF and just charge the £4.90 you should have paid, that sounds like a breakout of common-sense.

 

[jon0844]

If they are going to waive the PF and just charge the £4.90 you should have paid, that sounds like a breakout of common-sense.

Can't TOCs be fined if they aren't providing ticket purchasing facilities for more than a few hours here or there, or even a permit machine?

How does someone ever get to claim Delay Repay if they can't get a ticket?

 

[Clip]

Can't TOCs be fined if they aren't providing ticket purchasing facilities for more than a few hours here or there, or even a permit machine?

How does someone ever get to claim Delay Repay if they can't get a ticket?

Yes however with such things like a Permit to travel machine they could show they fixed it during the day but then it gets knacked during the night again(Medway towns are a little rough ) and the show carries over. However they do need to show they are fixing it but if its constantly broken then it needs to be reported quite highly.

 

[andygb]

If they are going to waive the PF and just charge the £4.90 you should have paid, that sounds like a breakout of common-sense.

On the face of it, yes it does seem that they have come to their senses. However Transport Focus have told me to send it to SER (I presume that is Southeastern?), but there are two letters after than email, one from the Appeal Service and one from the Enforcement agancy saying that I still owe the full amount.
The other disturbing thing, is that SER are going to waive it (proving that it should never have been issued) but want me to send the £20 fine, so that they can refung me £15.10 - utterly ridiculous:roll:

 

[jon0844]

It's probably a safer way to do things to sort things out and avoid further action. It doesn't mean you don't follow up with a complaint and seek assurances it won't happen again.

 

[furlong]

It's probably a safer way to do things to sort things out and avoid further action. It doesn't mean you don't follow up with a complaint and seek assurances it won't happen again.

It just rubs salt into the wounds! After all this easily-avoidable trouble and stress they've caused, why didn't they simply write it off and offer compensation and an apology? If the company won't take seriously the obligations it signed up to in return for being allowed to issue these penalties, then the DfT should withdraw that privilege.

 

[najaB]

On the face of it, yes it does seem that they have come to their senses. However Transport Focus have told me to send it to SER (I presume that is Southeastern?), but there are two letters after than email, one from the Appeal Service and one from the Enforcement agancy saying that I still owe the full amount.

As I suggested, Southestern have more sense than the 'independent' penalty fares service.

 

[Via Bank]

It just rubs salt into the wounds! After all this easily-avoidable trouble and stress they've caused, why didn't they simply write it off and offer compensation and an apology? If the company won't take seriously the obligations it signed up to in return for being allowed to issue these penalties, then the DfT should withdraw that privilege.

I agree.

If I were you, andygb, I would refuse to pay a penny, and (when dealing with Appeals Service) quote the correspondence you have had.

It is Southeastern's fault, they have no right whatsoever to demand extra money. I would also consider writing to the Department for Transport, and perhaps involving the local press or your MP.

 

[najaB]

If I were you, andygb, I would refuse to pay a penny, and (when dealing with Appeals Service) quote the correspondence you have had.

That would leave the fare unpaid.

 

[Harpers Tate]

Agreed. Escalate this as far as you can. In my opinion (and based on the story told here) they morally owe you at least the price of a penalty fare.

 

[furlong]

I would refuse to pay a penny,

There is still the problem that the Appeal should have been upheld, but wasn't. That decision needs to be reviewed - they are still chasing for payment - and I can find no basis for a successful appeal being conditional upon agreeing to pay the correct fare for the journey. I thought the company forfeits that fare if the appeal is upheld and it doesn't get the opportunity to deduct an alternative fare, does it? Does this not constitute a further failure of the company to adhere to the rules? "When in a hole stop digging."

 

[najaB]

I thought the company forfeits that fare if the appeal is upheld...

Do they? I can't see why the original fare wouldn't still be due. I had a look at the penalty fares rules but couldn't see it.

 

[Via Bank]

That would leave the fare unpaid.

Correction - not pay a penny above any due fare.

 

[island]

There is still the problem that the Appeal should have been upheld, but wasn't. That decision needs to be reviewed - they are still chasing for payment - and I can find no basis for a successful appeal being conditional upon agreeing to pay the correct fare for the journey. I thought the company forfeits that fare if the appeal is upheld and it doesn't get the opportunity to deduct an alternative fare, does it? Does this not constitute a further failure of the company to adhere to the rules? "When in a hole stop digging."

The above post has no basis in reality.

 

[andygb]

There is still the problem that the Appeal should have been upheld, but wasn't. That decision needs to be reviewed - they are still chasing for payment - and I can find no basis for a successful appeal being conditional upon agreeing to pay the correct fare for the journey. I thought the company forfeits that fare if the appeal is upheld and it doesn't get the opportunity to deduct an alternative fare, does it? Does this not constitute a further failure of the company to adhere to the rules? "When in a hole stop digging."

I will not be able to reply tomorrow because I am attending my course again.
However, I will not pay the £4.90 for a very simple reason, that is not the fare which I owed on that day.
I am now very confused who I should be sending the fare to - SER, IR, IPFAS.
It is late, and I am totally worn out by this whole ridiculous episode - night folks.

 

[furlong]

Ah - it's in the appeals policy for the TfL scheme where I read it, not National Rail:

If an appeal is successful and a Penalty Fare has been fully paid or part paid by the appellant, they will normally receive a full refund of the amount paid.

(and TfL leaves itself a get-out with the word 'normally')


Also from the Southeastern scheme 2009 via FOI:

12.2 IPFAS will decide appeals in line with the code of practice approved by the DfT. IPFAS will send passengers a copy of this code of practice if they ask.

Has anyone here asked and received a copy of this or is it even online somewhere accessible?

You should quote that and ask for a copy.

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It's also worth noting:

1.36 There is no limit on the number of appeals a passenger is able to make per case.

(source)

 

[island]

I will not be able to reply tomorrow because I am attending my course again.
However, I will not pay the £4.90 for a very simple reason, that is not the fare which I owed on that day.
I am now very confused who I should be sending the fare to - SER, IR, IPFAS.
It is late, and I am totally worn out by this whole ridiculous episode - night folks.

If £4.90 was not the fare you claim you owed on the day, what was the fare and why?

 

[Antman]

I am loathe to give my home station details, because there are people on another forum reading this (I have tried to get advice elsewhere as well), but it is on the Southeastern region - Medway Valley Line.

I think I can guess which station but if you'd rather not say then that is fair enough, pardon the pun!

It's normal practice on that line to buy a ticket from the guard or pay at destination, the permit to travel machines are often vandalized and of course you need coinage.

 

[Haywain]

I think I can guess which station but if you'd rather not say then that is fair enough, pardon the pun!

It's normal practice on that line to buy a ticket from the guard or pay at destination, the permit to travel machines are often vandalized and of course you need coinage.

However, at present it appears that no payment has been made at all.

 

[andygb]

If £4.90 was not the fare you claim you owed on the day, what was the fare and why?

Not that it is a really important point but:
I usually travel to Gillingham from my home station, and that is a £4.90 return.
I actually owe a single ticket (now, because I didn't catch the train home) to Chatham which is £3.20.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I think I can guess which station but if you'd rather not say then that is fair enough, pardon the pun!

It's normal practice on that line to buy a ticket from the guard or pay at destination, the permit to travel machines are often vandalized and of course you need coinage.

Thanks Antman, it is indeed normal practice to pay the conductor or pay at destination - something the Revenue Protection seem keen to ignore.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I will now add some further news following my journey this morning.
On arrival at my home station, I discovered that the permit to travel machine - has gone!!!
The signalman said it was removed earlier in the week.
So, we now have NO ticket machine and NO permit to travel machine, and if you folks thought that sounds crazy, it gets worse.
I boarded the train and sat in my usual place near the conductors cab, but after pulling out of the station she showed no interest in coming out to greet her happy passengers - so, I knocked on the door rather loudly, and a flustered conductor/guard asked me what I wanted.
I stated that I would like her to sell me a ticket, because I didn't much fancy getting another penalty far notice.
She then replied that she couldn't sell me a ticket because they don't issue her with a ticket machine!!!!!
When I got to Strood, I had two minutes to catch my connection to Gillingham (my usual destination station), and was fortunate to be able to purchase a ticket from the conductor on that train - just as well, because there must have been at least half a dozen RPSS people at Gillingham station.

 

[najaB]

So, we now have NO ticket machine and NO permit to travel machine, and if you folks thought that sounds crazy, it gets worse.

That in itself isn't unusual - there are plenty of stations with neither. What would be crazy is if they hold on the fantasy that it can continue to be a penalty fares station.

 

[furlong]

So, we now have NO ticket machine and NO permit to travel machine

And I presume there are no penalty fares posters at the station too? If there are, take photos and again check with the DfT that the scheme has been replaced with a new scheme with those stations excluded. (You can also ask them for a copy of the new scheme document - using FOI if necessary.)

(You can't have posters at a station that has no machine and therefore is not part of the scheme.)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The appeal the OP has made *is* the appeal against Southeastern's decision - the next level of appeal is to the DfT, not back to Southeastern!

The FAQ on Southeastern's website also agrees about where to direct complaints about IPFAS.

IPFAS are an independent organisation governed by the Department of Transport.

 

[andygb]

And I presume there are no penalty fares posters at the station too? If there are, take photos and again check with the DfT that the scheme has been replaced with a new scheme with those stations excluded. (You can also ask them for a copy of the new scheme document - using FOI if necessary.)

(You can't have posters at a station that has no machine and therefore is not part of the scheme.)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


The FAQ on Southeastern's website also agrees about where to direct complaints about IPFAS.

Two large posters on a wall opposite where the permit to travel machine used to stand.