Penalty Fare Increases. Transport For London.

[313103]

Not sure if this has been mentioned before (if it has can a mod please put this in the correct place please) Transport for London Penalty fares increase from (i think) Monday 20 February 2012.

The current £50 penalty fare reduced to £25 if paid withing 21 days increases to £80 (yes £80) penalty fare reduced to £40 if paid withing 21 days.

Not for me to comment as an employee, just to inform.

Posters have now gone up at all London Overground stations (Well North London Line and Gospel Oak to Barking line).

The only thing i am not sure about is if it applies to Londons bus operations. The poster is only listing London Overground and thats all. Will get a picture at work later and post it.

 

[bb21]

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/14436.aspx

Apparently increased from 2nd January. To be enforced from 19th February. Not sure why the time delay.

 

[Clip]

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/14436.aspx

Apparently increased from 2nd January. To be enforced from 19th February. Not sure why the time delay.

Due to failing to put up warning posters on all modes of transport in time.

 

[island]

I've seen the notices on London buses too.

 

[Clip]

I've seen the notices on London buses too.

This was the problem - 16000 buses to get them up on in time kind of put them back somewhat

 

[87015]

Hmm. One of the main reasons in the ATOC campaign to raise the NR Penalty Fare to £50/25 is to bring it inline with the TfL price.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Still not quite as bad as the "Standard Fare" of £100, reduced to £50 if paid within 14 days, which is levied on Manchester Metrolink.

 

[Ferret]

Still not quite as bad as the "Standard Fare" of £100, reduced to £50 if paid within 14 days, which is levied on Manchester Metrolink.

I suppose people could always try paying the fare they should. Wouldn't matter how high the PFs are then would it?

 

[Minilad]

I suppose people could always try paying the fare they should. Wouldn't matter how high the PFs are then would it?

And why on earth should they do that when the chances are they will get away with not buying one

 

[Ferret]

And why on earth should they do that when the chances are they will get away with not buying one

Silly me! It's a fair point though - I've done several trips to Bury for the ELR on the Manc trams and there's been a distinct lack of grippers about!

 

[LexyBoy]

I suppose people could always try paying the fare they should. Wouldn't matter how high the PFs are then would it?

Unless they were told by National Rail Enquiries to make a journey involving a transfer on Metrolink with no warning that this part of the itinerary isn't included on the ticket.

 

[Deerfold]

This was the problem - 16000 buses to get them up on in time kind of put them back somewhat

Calm down - 8500! (Including spares).

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Silly me! It's a fair point though - I've done several trips to Bury for the ELR on the Manc trams and there's been a distinct lack of grippers about!

Victoria is a favourite haunt of the grippers as it happens. They do a full block with loads of them, as there is only one entrance / exit to the platforms. A huge gang blocks off the entrance / exit so no one gets in or out without a ticket. As a tram arrives another team jump on checking tickets. Anyone without one is taken off the tram where they are trapped.

Another tactic I have seen used, which is quite funny is when two teams operate together. 1 in uniform jump on a tram - all the fare dodgers see them and jump off to wait for the next tram. On the next tram are a load more, in plain clothes, who only bring out the id cards when the doors are closed. Ker-ching - trapped once again!

They are around quite a bit actually, even late at night. On sporting event days they tend to block Piccadilly and sell tickets using old Almex machines to the sports fans.

 

[Paul Kelly]

I think for these sorts of things the chance of getting caught might be a much bigger deterrent than the actual penalty fare amount.

 

[34D]

Unless they were told by National Rail Enquiries to make a journey involving a transfer on Metrolink with no warning that this part of the itinerary isn't included on the ticket.

Could someone clarify (or point to an existing thread) when a transfer by metrolink is included? Do NRE still tell people to do this?

 

[clagmonster]

Could someone clarify (or point to an existing thread) when a transfer by metrolink is included? Do NRE still tell people to do this?

I understand that transfer by Metrolink is included in three scenarios:
1)if the ticket has a destination or origin of Manchester CTLZ
2) If the ticket has Metrolink (GM) in the route field
3) the origin or destination on the ticket is a specific Metrolink station
I believe that these will only ever apply if the origin and destination are both in Greater Manchester or are one of a few stations on the mid Cheshire line.

I do not know where this is actually publicised. I think NRE spits out a line along the lines of:
"some, but not all tickets are valid on the tram. You may need to pay an extra fare to use the tram" without actually giving details of how to find out whether the ticket is valid on the tram.

 

[Deerfold]

Could someone clarify (or point to an existing thread) when a transfer by metrolink is included? Do NRE still tell people to do this?

Transfers by Metrolink are shown.

There is then an i in a yellow triange. *if* you click on it says:

Train tickets validity on Metrolink services.

Train tickets may not be valid on some Metrolink services and an additional fare may be payable for the Metrolink part of the journey.

Unfortunately this also appears if you pick a valid journey such as Rochdale - Stockport.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

... giving details of how to find out whether the ticket is valid on the tram.

There is a poster on each Metrolink station which details which Rail tickets are accepted.

 

[clagmonster]

There is a poster on each Metrolink station which details which Rail tickets are accepted.

I didn't know that, is this new(ish) or have I just missed them? I still think it should be made clear at point of sale though.

 

[mralexn]

Not sure if this has been mentioned before (if it has can a mod please put this in the correct place please) Transport for London Penalty fares increase from (i think) Monday 20 February 2012.

The current £50 penalty fare reduced to £25 if paid withing 21 days increases to £80 (yes £80) penalty fare reduced to £40 if paid withing 21 days.

Not for me to comment as an employee, just to inform.

Posters have now gone up at all London Overground stations (Well North London Line and Gospel Oak to Barking line).

The only thing i am not sure about is if it applies to Londons bus operations. The poster is only listing London Overground and thats all. Will get a picture at work later and post it.

£80.. You can't as far as i can tell, easily get on a Tube train without a ticket anyway, arent all the stations gated?

£80 is fare, after all, i am being fined £95 for not having a ticket between Sheffield and Meadowhall,

It should act as a good deterrent, and make sure people have a ticket before they get on board,

 

[185]

National Rail Enquiries are still advising tram travel is included when it isn't.

Worse, one train company was wrongly advising it's customers that tickets were valid via tram from Piccadilly to Victoria during diversions, risking the £100 fare. The company pays nothing towards their tram journeys, and still won't provide replacement buses.

 

[Ferret]

National Rail Enquiries are still advising tram travel is included when it isn't.

Worse, one train company was wrongly advising it's customers that tickets were valid via tram from Piccadilly to Victoria during diversions, risking the £100 fare. The company pays nothing towards their tram journeys, and still won't provide replacement buses.

Has this been reported to the appropriate people?

 

[yorkie]

Has this been reported to the appropriate people?

It's certainly been reported, but whether an appropriate person picks up on it is questionable. In my experience reporting problems with rail ticket bookings is futile - they go to someone who I wouldn't trust to open a can of sardines that was already open, and you are fobbed off by them at every opportunity. It takes several attempts to escalate any matter to someone with the slightest bit of understanding of the systems involved.

£80.. You can't as far as i can tell, easily get on a Tube train without a ticket anyway

But a Penalty Fare is for all sorts of honest mistakes (or 'mistakes' that are not honest but are treated as if they were honest), such as:
- Losing your Railcard
- Not realising your Railcard has recently expired
- Travelling overdistance
- Travelling in 1st with a Std ticket when 1st looks identical to Std.

A Penalty Fare is not just a charge made for people who have forgotten to buy a ticket or lost their ticket.

If there is anyone here who has never ever had a ticket/railcard lost or stolen I would say they are extremely lucky.

arent all the stations gated?

No, many stations and many interchanges are not gated. Even if they were gates only ensure a ticket of some validity (highly variable) at the point of entry/exit.

£80 is fare, after all, i am being fined £95 for not having a ticket between Sheffield and Meadowhall,

Sorry to hear you have been convicted and fined, but at least it's not a recordable offence. I would suggest discussing this in the relevant thread, not here though.

80 pounds for a fare that could normally be as little as 1 or 2 pounds seems excessive and seems more like the level of a fine to me.

It should act as a good deterrent, and make sure people have a ticket before they get on board,

But it's not just about ensuring people have 'a ticket' before they board, a PF can be issued for any number of reasons and not just because of not having a ticket at the point of entry.

Some people are so scared by Penalty Fares that they are afraid to travel from stations where there are no facilities for them to buy their ticket, or they are afraid of what will happen if they use a different route (for which a fare is available so an excess can be applied) to the one printed on their ticket. PFs do not apply to these scenarios but if you say people will be given a PF if their ticket is not completely valid then most regular customers have no way to know that. It is a deterrent to travel not just a deterrent to travelling without a ticket.

Also it's not a deterrent if tickets are rarely checked. We're far more civilised up North (in general) by having regular checks and no need for Penalty Fares. There is a much greater chance of passengers paying for a valid ticket, but a much lesser chance of passengers paying a ridiculous fare that is as high as some fines for making an honest mistake.

 

[Fare-Cop]

No, many stations and many interchanges are not gated. Even if they were gates only ensure a ticket of some validity (highly variable) at the point of entry/exit.

Exactly so. All an automatic barrier gate does is protect the minimum fare to the next station.

A punitive deterrent is the only alternative to complete closed access barriers that are staffed full time and the latter is never going to happen