Paying for Railway Volunteers

[EbbwJunction1]

I'm not sure you've quite grasped the point I was making.

I obviously haven't ... can you say what the point was, please?

Thank you.

 

[Jonfun]

That Ploughman's analogy was wrong. He was comparing heritage railway volunteers to a football ground's fans - ie customers (which would be compared to a heritage railway's passengers) - instead of its staff - ie Stewards.

Would you expect Manchester United stewards to be paid? Of course.

 

[Haywain]

Would you expect Manchester United stewards to be paid? Of course.

Yes, in the same way that you would expect staff at a TOC to be paid. But would you expect the steward(s) and gate staff at Dulwich Hamlet to be paid?

 

[Jonfun]

I don't know or particularly care. There's little point directing that question at me; I have literally no interest in football whatsoever. Perhaps whoever started waffling on with a rubbish analogy about football could answer?

 

[SeanG]

For my 2ps worth...

If you volunteer at a railway, you'd generally do it because you would enjoy it, and hence it would offer an enjoyable 'day out'.
Any other type of 'day out' would involve a cost to travel there and then for lunch and to do whatever the 'activity' was, be it museum entry, heritage line tickets etc.

Therefore, surely the cost of travel also pays for a day's enjoyment?

 

[Ploughman]

I don't know or particularly care. There's little point directing that question at me; I have literally no interest in football whatsoever. Perhaps whoever started waffling on with a rubbish analogy about football could answer?

Like me you have no interest in football.
I was using the Fans as an example of a group of people who go every week to enjoy their pastime (or not) just like Railway volunteers do.
Volunteers pay their own way to get to the railway and also Food, Drink and any clothing.
Football fans pay out for Food, Drink and maybe overpriced Tee shirts.

So Fans and Volunteers both pay out for what they want to do.

Would Football fans expect to be able to claim expenses?
Doubt it but may want a Ticket price reduction.


Should either group be able to claim back expenses? NO

My comparison was on that basis only. I did not mention Stewards or similar as these are employed by the club.

 

[AnonymousUser1]

Like me you have no interest in football.
I was using the Fans as an example of a group of people who go every week to enjoy their pastime (or not) just like Railway volunteers do.
Volunteers pay their own way to get to the railway and also Food, Drink and any clothing.
Football fans pay out for Food, Drink and maybe overpriced Tee shirts.

So Fans and Volunteers both pay out for what they want to do.

Would Football fans expect to be able to claim expenses?
Doubt it but may want a Ticket price reduction.


Should either group be able to claim back expenses? NO

My comparison was on that basis only. I did not mention Stewards or similar as these are employed by the club.

fan = passenger / visitor

volunteer = staff even though they are not working for a wage ...

 

[Cliveblackpool]

Some have other perks for their volunteers.
Free train rides! Free tea coffee!
I believe some offer discounted pass for other heritage lines, Inter-rail - only available for volunteers.

 

[Haywain]

Would you expect Manchester United stewards to be paid? Of course.

My comparison was on that basis only. I did not mention Stewards or similar as these are employed by the club.

My point on this was that stewards at Manchester United would expect to be paid in the same way that staff at a TOC would expect to be paid, whilst stewards at a small non-league club (like Dulwich Hamlet) are likely to be unpaid volunteers in the same way as the "staff" of many heritage railways.

 

[telstarbox]

Although Dulwich Hamlet get bigger gates than some league teams, so perhaps they should be paying their staff!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Most, if not all, heritage railways have free accommodation for volunteers, offer free travel and discounts on food and beverages. The ID cards offer discounts on other railways (not all though) as well. They are not profit making operations, any money they make is used to preserve and improve their locomotives, stock and premises. If they had to pay expenses for volunteers to travel there then they could not do so, so they would simply have to stop doing a lot of what they do and only accept local volunteers. Simples.

However, if there's a volunteer with specific skills who lives 50 miles away it may be worth paying for their travel if there isn't anyone local with the same skills.

Some heritage railways do have paid staff eg the NYMR:

The NYMR is financially viable only because its volunteers supplement the work of staff and undertake every type of work from driving the trains to manning the shops. Their recompense is both the satisfaction gained from helping make the railway work and the friendly social opportunities that the railway engenders. Volunteers are a stalwart breed who put up with very poor working conditions and accommodation. But more could be attracted if we could offer better accommodation – treating them well and thanking them for the contribution they make. Both they and the paid staff have to be trained to meet the needs of the job and our workshops, in particular, want to train more apprentices in the fast-disappearing skills of railway vehicle maintenance. Feedback from volunteer and staff surveys helps set an agenda
for the improvements we need to make.

 

[ffm]

Most heritage railways have paid staff, though that is nothing to do with paying expenses to volunteers! Paid staff wouldn't get any for travel to and from work either. As to paying for someone to come a distance, because their skills were required - well maybe, but that might be more of a payment for work?

 

[Trainfan344]

As a volunteer since the age of 14, I feel I have a right to a say in this topic.

However, the increasing costs of transport to the museum is becoming more of an issue now than ever, so I would rather see discounts being given by transport companies to those that are travelling to volunteer rather than the societies themselves funding us.

I work at a small transport museum, we operate vehicles on a regular basis using just volunteers, it is a small community of people, including an increasing amount of younger volunteers, many of whom rely on the bus services to get to the museum.

 

[I like Class 153]

One friend of mine asked me "Do they pay for you to get there and provide you with a uniform?", I said "No", then I was asked "Do they give you your dinner?" I said "No", I was asked "Well what do they do for you?", I said "You get discounts on some snacks and drinks in the station shop, free tea and coffee" then they said "That is still disgusting"

I said "If they did, we will end up with no railway" then I said "Why don't you visit the railway and travel on it or make a monthly donation and encourage your friends and family do the same"

 

[CromptonLad]

As a former volunteer; it goes both ways.

"Volunteer"; to do so for the love of it, without expecting recompense. The whole point of it.

The place I went to luckily had a hostel so there was at least some form of accommodation even if very crowded and old.

In terms of railway <=>volunteer relations, preservation has bigger issues to worry about rather than whether they should be paid.

 

[Tomnick]

One friend of mine asked me "Do they pay for you to get there and provide you with a uniform?", I said "No", then I was asked "Do they give you your dinner?" I said "No", I was asked "Well what do they do for you?", I said "You get discounts on some snacks and drinks in the station shop, free tea and coffee" then they said "That is still disgusting"

I said "If they did, we will end up with no railway" then I said "Why don't you visit the railway and travel on it or make a monthly donation and encourage your friends and family do the same"

Having put hundreds upon hundreds of hours into our railway, the lack of a cheap dinner is neither here nor there really. My own culinary efforts are far better anyway! I do it because I very much enjoy it and because I know that the railway - as with others - couldn't function without its volunteers. I don't think that many serious volunteers are put off by the expectation that volunteers pay their own way within reason.

 

[cin88]

One of my current managers openly said something to the effect of "that's terrible that they won't pay you for your time" and "it shouldn't be allowed" when I had my job interview. I started volunteering whilst unemployed (and still expected to be so by now) so I had something to do with myself come the end of cricket season, and some safety critical experience. His comments pretty much summed up the reactions I get when I tell people that I work on the ELR for free.

I honestly don't care that i'm not paid to volunteer, after all i'm doing it for experience and to get myself out of the house. My only real grumble is the previously mentioned parking expenses, everything else i'm not bothered about.

 

[steevp]

Nothing to do with railways but I look after a number of websites for some non-profit organisations - they get my time, knowledge, electricity and my Broadband for free. Out of pocket expenses such as domain name renewals and hosting costs they reimburse me at cost. I do it because I enjoy it and wouldn't dream of charging for my time. I get a lot of appreciation (and the odd brickbat). One of the organisations gives me a free membership (not that I use it) and others offer smaller perks - I guess the point I am making is that these small things are recognition for the vast amount of work carried out and in a lot of organisations this is the key to gaining and retaining volunteers. A little goes a long way and maybe asking the volunteers for what is important to them would also help immensely

 

[Baxenden Bank]

One of my current managers openly said something to the effect of "that's terrible that they won't pay you for your time" and "it shouldn't be allowed" when I had my job interview. I started volunteering whilst unemployed (and still expected to be so by now) so I had something to do with myself come the end of cricket season, and some safety critical experience. His comments pretty much summed up the reactions I get when I tell people that I work on the ELR for free.
I honestly don't care that i'm not paid to volunteer, after all i'm doing it for experience and to get myself out of the house. My only real grumble is the previously mentioned parking expenses, everything else i'm not bothered about.

Re the bold bit.

Surely that is the problem with people today. They simply don't / won't understand that some people do give their time for free, out of the goodness of their heart, without expecting financial re-imbursement for any expense however minor. OK, some may only volunteer to gain experience which they can put on their CV, some use their professional day job skills as their hobby.

I suspect, in some (non preserved railway) cases, that there is abuse of volunteers generosity, in the sense that an organisation would otherwise pay staff to do exactly the same work. I wouldn't volunteer at a commercial, profit driven organisation (chartable status or not) without a very good incentive i.e. serious CV / career enhancement. I suspect few (if any) preserved railways would be profitable without their volunteers.

People invest in share issues for preserved railways but are not expecting dividends or to be able to sell the shares at a later date. What would be the views of the above manager, or the OP's friends at such financial lunacy!

The numbers who do volunteer is substantial.

When I was young, in our village, various parents organised various activities, for the benefit of their children and others, and society in general. The (C of E aided) school gave use of a room for free. Then, one day, something called a 'youth worker' appeared who , amazingly, was paid a salary for doing exactly what the parents did. I was surprised that such people existed, having assumed all such activities were provided by volunteers.

 

[Darandio]

so I would rather see discounts being given by transport companies to those that are travelling to volunteer rather than the societies themselves funding us.

What have they got to gain from this though?

And if simply being a volunteer is important enough to receive discounted travel, what about everyone else, those arguably travelling for more important purposes who would wonder why they shouldn't get a discount too?

 

[Top Shed]

Indeed recompense can come in many forms, for me it is when the start button is pressed and the offending item I have been fighting for the last six weeks actually works like a sewing machine. Or the the white metal bearing I have recently blued into to shape from the journal it will run against keeps cool and performs as it twas designed.

However without us the volunteers the world of railways within the UK would be a much more less interesting place.

I say keep at it because its the volunteers that make all the difference!

 

[ffm]

Cin88's manager and other people met show the stupidity of the general public, to think we actually let them have a vote! 'It's disgusting that you don't get paid when you volunteer,' where do we breed these imbeciles?

The education system has a lot to answer for, volunteer means given free, or is it the general greed society that means far too many people cannot understand the concept? God help us.

 

[yorksrob]

It is an interesting thread. I get the impression that for many people in these days when competition for genuine employment seems to be getting ever more competitive, volunteering is becoming a sort of 'national service' which is required to boost a CV. In this circumstance, it seems hardly surprising that people want some form of recompense as the volunteering may not be entirely voluntary.

I volunteer myself, but do so entirety out of my own interest in the subject, so the idea of recompense is anathema to me.

 

[scott118]

is the pleasure and experience gained, not priceless enough?

 

[yorksrob]

is the pleasure and experience gained, not priceless enough?

For me, yes, but I'm old enough not to have had to compete with every other Tom, Dick and Harry with a CV full of unpaid experience.

 

[CromptonLad]

We do it for the pleasure. For the satisfaction of a job well done and seeing something meaningful achieved with our efforts.

It is something many, brought in this 'modern world' of the X Factor, must-have gadgets and "livin for the weekends" [intentional] cannot comprehend.

Conversely, it is when the pleasure from the volunteering is drained through poor attitude of society officials, 'greybeards' and general face-don't-fit that people leave in droves. Recompensing isn't really an issue, it's retaining those who would love to.

 

[ffm]

It is an interesting thread. I get the impression that for many people in these days when competition for genuine employment seems to be getting ever more competitive, volunteering is becoming a sort of 'national service' which is required to boost a CV. In this circumstance, it seems hardly surprising that people want some form of recompense as the volunteering may not be entirely voluntary.

I volunteer myself, but do so entirety out of my own interest in the subject, so the idea of recompense is anathema to me.

Actually that first paragraph demonstrates not why such a volunteer would want recompense, but rather why such a reason for volunteering might lead to paying to do so. So the converse argument to that initially proposed. If you want to make your CV look good then there is absolutely no reason for the railway to give you anything, you want them, so you volunteer and accept any costs as it is for your personal gain.

 

[CromptonLad]

You don't get paid in wages but you 'earn' experience in skills that you take up plus [one likes to hope]expand your social circle.

A payoff in its own right - just not in greenback.

 

[yorksrob]

Actually that first paragraph demonstrates not why such a volunteer would want recompense, but rather why such a reason for volunteering might lead to paying to do so. So the converse argument to that initially proposed. If you want to make your CV look good then there is absolutely no reason for the railway to give you anything, you want them, so you volunteer and accept any costs as it is for your personal gain.

That's all well and good, but when I were a youngster, I needed money to undertake my social life. Fortunately in those days having a part time job was seen in itself as a good thing to have on ones CV.

I'm not sure I agree with your argument. Certainly most preserved railways rely on volunteers to keep going, so there is at the very least a mutual benefit.

 

[AnonymousUser1]

people seem to confuse ' zero cost volunteering' with paying people ... and while they do so it will be hard to get a sensible conclusion, not helped by those who seem to think that working as a volunteer is some kind of hobby rather than it being volunteering out of a sense of philanthropy or as a way to get skills, knowledge and experience that you couldn't otherwise

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

I volunteer in a local charity shop one or two days a week, I really enjoy it, meeting people, although I do feel sorry for the people who are sent there from the job centre and have to do thirty hours a week, it does not give them much time to search for jobs.

I know some people who volunteer on the KWVR and they like it very much. I wish there was a similar steam railway near me as I should like to work on one of those lines, but the nearest are the Bluebell or Mid-Hants which are still rather a long and expensive journey away.