Passengers Stuck on Seaford - Brighton service for SIX hours

[tsr]

Or "shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted", as we call it. For avoidance of doubt, getting third parties to mop up the mess caused by not resolving a stranded train in a timely manner does not absolve liability.

I'm not saying it does. I am not commending the reaction by Southern's managers (or indeed Network Rail's management, who are quite possibly at fault for not ensuring a maintenance plan was in place to prevent this class of rolling stock becoming stranded on a gradient in difficult conditions).

 

[185]

Three inches of snow? We bloody well play cricket in that up here in Lancashire in summer!

Where traction current is concerned, three inches is enough to stop 3rd rail stuff, but there are preventative measures which should have been taken. Southern seem to be passing the buck on this one and not making much comment. I suspect there may be legal action hence their almost total silence.

As was mentioned on here, there were a few things they could have done to get the passengers on the move, but didn't - seemingly failed to learn from two years ago's errors.

 

[GearJammer]

Send/take a non fitted loco on the mainline and its P45s all round!

I hope whoever is responsible for not acting gets a P45!
There should have been rescue locos nearer the scene, everyone knew this weather/snow was coming, it was'nt a surprise, it was on the weather forcasts, locos should have been strategicly placed.

 

[455driver]

I hope whoever is responsible for not acting gets a P45!
There should have been rescue locos nearer the scene, everyone knew this weather/snow was coming, it was'nt a surprise, it was on the weather forcasts, locos should have been strategicly placed.

Who-ever is responsible should have their future prospects "discussed" and then a decision made.
Ther must have been a diesel unit in the area to run up beside the failure and transfer people across some sort of bridge, it keeps getting talked about but no bugger seems to have the bottle to use one.

There are no rescue locos ready yet, the 57/3s have not been signed off.:roll:

 

[Wolfie]

Useful guidance for the impact of cold weather on people. I wonder what temperature that class 313 was at internally after being stranded without power, and with the back door being opened for "comfort" reasons after 6 hours?

http://www.ageuk.org.uk/sheffield/news--campaigns/keep-warm-keep-healthy1/

If a passenger had got ill/died as a result (not a completely unlikely scenario) I trust the senior managers who failed to act would face criminal charges up to and including manslaughter as well as Southern/Network Rail facing massive compensation claims.....

 

[SussexMan]

I'm surprised there was no self-detraining.

Where would the passengers have gone to? Dark, cold, third rail, snow, etc... Unless someone could phone a friend to try and pick them up off the A27 dual carriageway (which a passenger could only get to by going down a steep embankment, over fences, through fields etc) it would have been a quite a walk back to Lewes or on to Brighton. They could hardly have tried to get another train and buses may not have been running.

This is where the train was stuck. In the summer, a quick hop over a fence, scramble down an embankment, through a field etc...but on a dark, cold, snowy, winter's night....

 

[455driver]

I'm surprised there was no self-detraining.

Far too cold for that!

 

[transmanche]

Where would the passengers have gone to? Dark, cold, third rail, snow, etc... Unless someone could phone a friend to try and pick them up off the A27 dual carriageway (which a passenger could only get to by going down a steep embankment, over fences, through fields etc) it would have been a quite a walk back to Lewes or on to Brighton.

A local farmer's tractor and trailer would have been a good start...

 

[ushawk]

A local farmer's tractor and trailer would have been a good start...

The area itself is very hilly, the nearest access point is a while away too (possibly the bridge over the A27).

I fail to see why a Class 171 didn't pull up alongside, surely a ramp or a bridge could have been placed between the trains with Rail staff supervising the evacuation.

Personally, I think a part of the delay is down to a delay in getting staff to the location.

 

[tsr]

I fail to see why a Class 171 didn't pull up alongside, surely a ramp or a bridge could have been placed between the trains with Rail staff supervising the evacuation.

I may have missed something, but I haven't seen a comment on whether or not this would have been permitted. There are, as far as I know, constraints on which types of bridges could be used, and whether or not any are suitable for use between a 313 and a 171.

 

[sarahj]

The problem is you are dammed if you dont, and dammed if you do.

The snow was quite deep around the train, so while an evacuation was possible, should anyone have injured themselves Southern would have looking at massive amounts of compo. I'm sure laywers would have been falling over themselves, with claims of to dangerous to leave the train etc. And whoever authorises it will be the one getting the blame.

So just as easy to stay put, no one gets hurt, give the ones stuck a wedge for their trouble.

Its the same with schools. Parents complain about them being shut, with 'in my day'. Perhaps, but in your day, if you went into a school covered in snow, fell over, broke something, your parents would not be on the phone to laywers for you.
Its the culture we live in. We can moan, we can gripe, but deep down we all fancy that few grand for a nice holiday.

SJ

 

[Wath Yard]

I hope they do get a wedge. When I was stuck on a train for 5 1/2 hours, mentioned a couple of pages ago, I was reimbursed my train fare. When I wrote back saying I was expecting a bit more than that, they replied - tough, check our Passenger Charter.

 

[mbonwick]

WNXX forum suggesting that the shoegear on the 313 had welded itself to the 3rd rail, with fitters having to be summoned to cut the shoes off before the unit could be moved.....

 

[SussexMan]

A local farmer's tractor and trailer would have been a good start...

I was responding to the question, "why was there no self-detraining?" i.e. the passengers get off the train without the permission of the guard. A farmer's tractor would only have been any good if a passenger knew the farmer who owned the adjoining field and could ring them and ask them to collect them.

 

[jon0844]

Clearly the safest place was the train, and even after that time I doubt it became that cold inside - and people would be dressed for cold weather anyway.

I've sat on a plane for 7+ hours waiting to take off in bad weather, and didn't decide part way through to open the emergency exit door and jump down the slide to get off and go back to the terminal building.

 

[ryan125hst]

Clearly the safest place was the train, and even after that time I doubt it became that cold inside - and people would be dressed for cold weather anyway.

I've sat on a plane for 7+ hours waiting to take off in bad weather, and didn't decide part way through to open the emergency exit door and jump down the slide to get off and go back to the terminal building.

Was the APU running or the ground power connected? If it was, which is very likely, you would have had heating, lighting and toilets.

 

[fusionblue]

Clearly the safest place was the train, and even after that time I doubt it became that cold inside - and people would be dressed for cold weather anyway.

I've sat on a plane for 7+ hours waiting to take off in bad weather, and didn't decide part way through to open the emergency exit door and jump down the slide to get off and go back to the terminal building.

I was on a Virgin Atlantic A340 heading to NYC a couple years back. There was "some paperwork to be done" before we left, except the doors was open for 90 minutes. They said because they were open the cabin could not be pressurised hence air conditioning didn't work. When sitting on a place with 300+ people for an hour in steadily increasing heat in a relatively small space I became quite agitated and "broke" first and asked one of the staff for some water. 10 more people then went "me too!" soon as i did.

I suppose it depends on what kind of unit failed. I was only on an A340 that was gently simmering for an hour. But if it was a crush-loaded 378 (or worse, a crush loaded 10-car 376!) they would not have sat patiently for 6 hours.

 

[jon0844]

Was the APU running or the ground power connected? If it was, which is very likely, you would have had heating, lighting and toilets.

We had lighting and air conditioning, except for the many times we had to be de-iced when it had to be turned off. At these times, we ended up sweating away and it was very uncomfortable. We only had one or two hand-outs of water in the whole time, and no in-flight entertainment system!

We were one of the last planes to get out of New York before it was closed for 2-3 days (this was back in 2003, and also Virgin) so if we'd got off the plane - officially - I am sure we'd have been stranded there. Nevertheless, plenty of people were uncomfortable and wanted to go back to the gate.

I'm not aware of any passenger action on a plane similar to the perfectly acceptable (by some) decision to jump off a train, but it is a comparable situation in my opinion.

 

[455driver]

I suppose it depends on what kind of unit failed. I was only on an A340 that was gently simmering for an hour. But if it was a crush-loaded 378 (or worse, a crush loaded 10-car 376!) they would not have sat patiently for 6 hours.

But it wasnt so it is irrelevant to this thread! :roll:

Why cant people talk about the "facts" about incidents like this instead of all the it could have been this, that and the other (If I had picked different lottery numbers I would be a millionaire, but I didnt so I am not).

Was it fair that the passengers were stuck on this train for 6 hours, no of course it isnt what it is is absolutely ridiculous but nobody died, nobody had a baby and nobody had a medical emergency.

Deal with the facts and not melodramatic supposition.

There has been a lot of talk about another train drawing up alongside and using some sort of bridge to walk people across, a bloody good idea but will it get past the health and safety lot?
Probably not because they will no doubt insist it is covered over with handrails on both sides and various other superfluous bits tacked on meaning it will weigh a tonne and need a crane to move into position rather than it be a simple, lightweight board with a hand rail on one side which can be carried on the trains (a disabled ramp would probably do it but as it doesnt have a hand rail it isnt allowed :roll.

So because of the H&S trying to cover every possible eventuality we are left with people being stuck on the train for 6 hours with (seemingly) nothing happening.

Dont hate the player, hate the game.

 

[broadgage]

It does seem that the railway treated this with a lack of urgency.
I have been in a somwhat similar situation on FCC, who seem to regard a few thousand passengers trapped for hours as "just one of those things"

I can think of several cheap things that could be done to make conditions on board a lot more bearable, even if not to speed rescue.

Firstly provide emergency lighting that works, and works for at least 12 hours. With modern LED lamps basic lighting can be provided in a railway carriage for 12 hours from a small and cheap battery.

Secondly keep an emergency supply of blankets for cold conditions on each train. A major charity recently stated that these are as cheap as £3 each in bulk.

Thirdly provide one toilet of a very basic dump design, that can be used without electricity, and designed such that the waste drops directly on the track, without need of flushing water.
Such a basic facility is not suitable for daily use on todays railway but one per train, locked out of use normally would be valuable in case of prolonged breakdown. Keep it locked normally, and store blankets, reserve toilet paper, bottled water, and battery lanterns in there for emergency use.

 

[jon0844]

Just as I said before, and a 313 has ample room for storing such things in case of emergency. Any train that might be left stranded in an inaccessible place (because of the route), or where it's already known that there is a limited number of things that can rescue it, should have things to make a long stay more bearable, or safer if there's a chance of extreme cold weather putting some passengers at risk.

LED lighting that can last days is a very good feature for one, as total darkness is bound to make people think of detraining themselves, even if it's obviously pitch black outside!

Most of this safety kit wouldn't expire, so could be left on the train for months/years before being called upon.

 

[broadgage]

Oh and BTW am I the only one who one who ALLWAYS keeps a torch with them when travelling ?
If I have some reason to be particulary concerned, such as bad weather, then I take two torches and spare batteries, and glowsticks.

 

[sarahj]

I'm lost on this concept of a basic toilet. for one thing, it would have to be wheelchair useable. Imagine the outcry. train stuck for 6 hours, but cause person was in wheelchair, unable to use toilet. Plus, once it was known a toilet was on the train, people would want to use it even when the train was not stuck, I can imagine the arguments. From what I've heard, while the solution was not great, it did the trick. Plus all that expence for the odd occasion. And on board are small lights/glow sticks, plus staff have torches. We also carry a few basic blankets/foils for those that might need it. However, it was a cold night and people had coats with them so were not needed.

Perhaps what needs to be carried are idenmnity forms. We can evacuate if you sign this form saying if you get hurt you cannot sue. Wont sign, then you stay on board. , though I'm sure a lawyer would say they were signed under duress and not valid.

Dammed if we did, dammed cause we didnt.

SJ

 

[Wath Yard]

We'll never know if you would have been damned if you did because the fact is you didn't. In fact you didn’t seem to do very much at all.

 

[tsr]

Oh and BTW am I the only one who one who ALLWAYS keeps a torch with them when travelling ?
If I have some reason to be particulary concerned, such as bad weather, then I take two torches and spare batteries, and glowsticks.

No, you are not! I generally have at least a couple of pretty decent torches with me.

 

[sarahj]

We, the train working staff might have wanted it done differently, but once the MOM gets there, they are in charge, and its up to them, and they are looking it at a POV of keep the passengers safe and on the train, or risk a detrain through snow and ice with the risk of injury. Yes, the delay getting the 73 there was too long, and things were disccused etc on that train that I will NOT mention here on a public forum. But what I am trying to do is look at all sides of the argument. Perhaps the train could have been evacuated and all passengers, including small children could have made it, down the stepladder onto track where snow etc was covering the ballast,sleepers etc, down the track, up the small wooden stairs, covered in snow and ice, down a path, with no injury, but....

SJ

 

[transmanche]

I was responding to the question, "why was there no self-detraining?" i.e. the passengers get off the train without the permission of the guard. A farmer's tractor would only have been any good if a passenger knew the farmer who owned the adjoining field and could ring them and ask them to collect them.

Jolly good. But I'm certain that you get the point - instead of keeping passengers stuck on a failed train for 5-6 hours, the railway could have just phoned a local farmer for help. Passengers could then have been evacuated from the train with the assistance of railway staff and/or emergency services and removed from the scene by tractor.

 

[A-driver]

But there will be a chain of command and somebody at the top of that chain of command - who should be sufficiently experienced and skilled to make difficult decisions - should be able to authorise things which in normal practice wouldn't be allowed if an emergency situation arises.

Leaving people on a train for 5 hours in this sort of circumstance simply isn't acceptable.

But there isn't though. There are lots of people from different departments and organisations none of whom can make those decisions as none will take the risk. If a higher up manager authorised something and someone died as a result to provide a worst case scenario then that manager would personally be held responsible for the death.

Plus (and I say this with experience if talking to TOC and network rail controls in situations similar to this one) the 'higher ups' rarely listen to train crews and if so they don't trust our opinions. I have been in situations before when after giving a very clear and detailed description of exactly what is happening have been told to carry out their instructions and had to argue with then as they are not actually listening to what I'm saying is happening! And you then tend to find in the control log entries that you have been gloriously miss quoted when they realise you were actually right all along!

We are the ones actually there seeing a situation first hand, actually dealing with the passengers involved and with experience and training yet most managers choose to ignore what we say.

 

[A-driver]

We'll never know if you would have been damned if you did because the fact is you didn't. In fact you didn’t seem to do very much at all.

Firstly she made it clear earlier that she was not the guard but knows the guard.

Secondly that us a useless and pointless post unless you can provide facts to back up your argument that the train crew didn't do much to help at all.

Try reading the rest of the thread and use a bit of common sense before posting things like that. It's been said a few times already on here that the train crew can only do what they can do and in a situation like this that is not very much at all apart from waiting with the passengers for some form of rescue.

 

[jon0844]

I am not sure about this 'call a local farmer' idea. For one, call who? Secondly, how does said farmer now accept a level of responsibility for a rescue - in case someone is injured? Does the farmer have public liability insurance on his tractor/trailer?

And where does the farmer now take these people, in a number of trips back and forth?

If the train was derailed and on fire, I am sure locals would rush to the rescue but I get the feeling that most people on the train accepted it was the best place to be.