Passengers carrying LPG bottles on trains

[thenorthern]

Earlier today I was talking to someone about LPG bottles and how they were going to drive to pick them up as they joked they couldn't take them on the train. I said that was the best idea but I didn't know if it was actually banned.

Anyway I checked they conditions of carriage and the only thing I can see that it would come under is "Dangerous goods; inflammable liquids; explosives" which are banned. I was wondering though is carrying LPG bottles allowed? I am not planning to do it I am just curious.

 

[Committee man]

Earlier today I was talking to someone about LPG bottles and how they were going to drive to pick them up as they joked they couldn't take them on the train. I said that was the best idea but I didn't know if it was actually banned.

Anyway I checked they conditions of carriage and the only thing I can see that it would come under is "Dangerous goods; inflammable liquids; explosives" which are banned. I was wondering though is carrying LPG bottles allowed? I am not planning to do it I am just curious.

As LPG is, I think, an 'inflammable liquid' I assume it is indeed banned.

 

[Undiscovered]

Carrying a large tin of paint is prohibited....

 

[dcsprior]

I presume there's some kind of volume or weight limit?

I mean: you're allowed to carry a lighter with either gas or petrol inside aren't you? Or a bottle of whisky or a can of deodorant? But a big calor gas cylinder probably not!

 

[sw1ller]

I presume there's some kind of volume or weight limit?

I mean: you're allowed to carry a lighter with either gas or petrol inside aren't you? Or a bottle of whisky or a can of deodorant? But a big calor gas cylinder probably not!

I can only comment from my days as a dangerous goods driver by road, but assume it carries over to rail. But yes, the size of the package/receptacle does indeed make a difference. Bleach, for Instance, can be transported in bottles for the supermarket up to the max weight of the lorry (over all 44t for example) with no extra training for the driver under “limited quantities” rules. But if they took the same amount of bleach in a tanker, they’d need a full ADR (dangerous goods) licence. Same with caravans. Anyone can take a gas canister anywhere on their holidays, but the same amount of gas in a tanker……. You get the idea.

 

[John Webb]

....Anyway I checked they conditions of carriage and the only thing I can see that it would come under is "Dangerous goods; inflammable liquids; explosives" which are banned. I was wondering though is carrying LPG bottles allowed? I am not planning to do it I am just curious.

Since the 1970s the preferred terms in fire safety (and in some legislation) have been "Flammable" and "Non-flammable" since it had been found that some people thought 'inflammable' meant 'non-flammable' with sometimes fatal consequences! Seems someone hasn't mentioned this to whoever writes the Conditions of Carriage.

 

[geoffk]

Since the 1970s the preferred terms in fire safety (and in some legislation) have been "Flammable" and "Non-flammable" since it had been found that some people thought 'inflammable' meant 'non-flammable' with sometimes fatal consequences! Seems someone hasn't mentioned this to whoever writes the Conditions of Carriage.

And French "flammable" means "inflammable" in English.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I can only comment from my days as a dangerous goods driver by road, but assume it carries over to rail. But yes, the size of the package/receptacle does indeed make a difference. Bleach, for Instance, can be transported in bottles for the supermarket up to the max weight of the lorry (over all 44t for example) with no extra training for the driver under “limited quantities” rules. But if they took the same amount of bleach in a tanker, they’d need a full ADR (dangerous goods) licence. Same with caravans. Anyone can take a gas canister anywhere on their holidays, but the same amount of gas in a tanker……. You get the idea.

And lots of hikers/campers will carry those small screw on canisters for stoves etc with nobody the wiser, though in practice the risk they pose is no different from a can of hairspray.

 

[Ediswan]

And lots of hikers/campers will carry those small screw on canisters for stoves etc with nobody the wiser, though in practice the risk they pose is no different from a can of hairspray.

When HSTs were new, a group of us went to Wales for a backpacking trip. The guard did point out that the paraffin we had for Primus stoves was not allowed, but that he would not be making a issue of it.

 

[DarloRich]

Anyone can take a gas canister anywhere on their holidays,

We have 2 dumpy bottles in our camper. We do have a warning sticker on the van and the gas locker but they are, I understand, NOT required.

And lots of hikers/campers will carry those small screw on canisters for stoves etc with nobody the wiser, though in practice the risk they pose is no different from a can of hairspray.

I have taken one of those on the train in the past. No issue. However I don't think I would be allowed to cart one of the dumpy bottles (3.9kg) from the van on board and sit it on a table!

 

[D6975]

And lots of hikers/campers will carry those small screw on canisters for stoves etc with nobody the wiser, though in practice the risk they pose is no different from a can of hairspray.

Never mind just taking them on the train. I've seen them in use on the table of West Highland services back in the 80s.

 

[Requeststop]

As one who has been in the Oil and Gas Industry for 51 years, I can categorically state that no container of LPG, LNG, in any form is allowed inside a building, including the lab for testing where it is placed in a properly ventilated fume cupboard for testing purposes. These days sampling and testing of gases is done by automatic analysers within oil and gas plant, the only persons allowed into the analyser houses are the calibration testers, and that under strict confined space regulations.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As one who has been in the Oil and Gas Industry for 51 years, I can categorically state that no container of LPG, LNG, in any form is allowed inside a building

Categorically incorrect, you mean. There are for example butane heaters which have the cylinder on the back still on sale and widespread use. Though if you are in Papua New Guinea as your profile says, the law may differ from the UK.

I think what you are saying is that the operating procedure derived from the risk assessment of your company prohibited this. Others may however disagree.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Since the 1970s the preferred terms in fire safety (and in some legislation) have been "Flammable" and "Non-flammable" since it had been found that some people thought 'inflammable' meant 'non-flammable' with sometimes fatal consequences! Seems someone hasn't mentioned this to whoever writes the Conditions of Carriage.

Conditions of Travel has been the correct term for several years as well

 

[geordieblue]

And French "flammable" means "inflammable" in English.

So does English 'flammable' to be fair

 

[Bletchleyite]

So does English 'flammable' to be fair

Indeed. They have slightly different meanings in English - "flammable" means "can burn", whereas "inflammable" means "can catch fire" (inflam -> catching fire), but in reality there's no practical difference and so "inflammable" is best avoided because the "in" prefix often means "not" and that could be a very dangerous piece of confusion indeed.

 

[nlt]

When I did InterRail many years ago I had a small camping gaz stove in my backpack. During a long border crossing stop into one of the Communist bloc countries it leaked. I always thought that if somebody had lit a fag it might have blown the train up! Luckily nobody did but the border guards gave me a curious look.

 

[Howardh]

And lots of hikers/campers will carry those small screw on canisters for stoves etc with nobody the wiser, though in practice the risk they pose is no different from a can of hairspray.

True story - someone at my works left a can of deoderent or similar on a radiatior, and overnight it heated so much it caught fire (presumably exploded) and burned the room down. Perhaps the sprinklers saved the whole building, but still a mess to turn up to work to!

So yes, dangers lurk everywhere. But in reality, what are the chances of a gas canister (say campingaz) on a train exploding? Although of course the pax with it could simply turn it on and put a light to it, and create havoc. So like an aircraft, best not to have them on board! Does raise the issue of genuine campers using the train to go camping with their equipment - could a guard "store" such goods in their cab? But with all a camper's parafanalia, would anyone know there are a couple of gas cannisters in there? Whom would have the power to search?

 

[Bletchleyite]

So yes, dangers lurk everywhere. But in reality, what are the chances of a gas canister (say campingaz) on a train exploding? Although of course the pax with it could simply turn it on and put a light to it, and create havoc. So like an aircraft, best not to have them on board! Does raise the issue of genuine campers using the train to go camping with their equipment - could a guard "store" such goods in their cab? But with all a camper's parafanalia, would anyone know there are a couple of gas cannisters in there? Whom would have the power to search?

Has there ever been an issue on a UK train caused by these? I suspect not. If indeed not, there is no need to do anything about them.

It's not like an aircraft because of one major difference - if there is a fire on a train, it can be stopped and everyone can get off.

You can put a light to a can of hairspray too. Best ban those?

 

[GC class B1]

While bit off topic, a colleague and myself visited an MOD site where explosives were stored. We arrived by car and wer told we couldn’t take torches or sandwiches with us to the stored railway vehicles. When I questioned whether it was ok to drive our car to the stored vehicles as it had petrol in it, we were told this was ok.

 

[krus_aragon]

Has there ever been an issue on a UK train caused by these?

Historically, there were plenty of trains using gas for lighting (and cooking) which led to several railway accidents turning into fires. Quintinshill is one of the more prominent examples.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Historically, there were plenty of trains using gas for lighting (and cooking) which led to several railway accidents turning into fires. Quintinshill is one of the more prominent examples.

Indeed, but has a small portable cylinder intended for use on a camping stove ever caused an issue? It's a totally different game from large cylinders with piping around wooden-bodied rolling stock. They pose the same risk as an aerosol can which usually use butane as the propellant and contain a similar amount under a similar pressure. If a ban was to be enforced, a ban should be enforced on all aerosols including your hairspray in your shopping.

 

[krus_aragon]

Indeed, but has a small portable cylinder intended for use on a camping stove ever caused an issue? It's a totally different game from large cylinders with piping around wooden-bodied rolling stock. They pose the same risk as an aerosol can which usually use butane as the propellant and contain a similar amount under a similar pressure. If a ban was to be enforced, a ban should be enforced on all aerosols including your hairspray in your shopping.

I can't speak to that, but that's the nearest example I can think of (which also serves to explain why such a rule has existed).

 

[Ediswan]

While bit off topic, a colleague and myself visited an MOD site where explosives were stored. We arrived by car and wer told we couldn’t take torches or sandwiches with us to the stored railway vehicles. When I questioned whether it was ok to drive our car to the stored vehicles as it had petrol in it, we were told this was ok.

Curious. Some places where there is an explosion hazard used to (may still do) prohibit petrol vehicles as they, by design, include a high voltage spark generator.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

While bit off topic, a colleague and myself visited an MOD site where explosives were stored. We arrived by car and were told we couldn’t take torches or sandwiches with us to the stored railway vehicles. When I questioned whether it was ok to drive our car to the stored vehicles as it had petrol in it, we were told this was ok.

Why were the sandwiches a risk? I cannot think of any potential igniting sources in a sandwich?

 

[Requeststop]

Categorically incorrect, you mean. There are for example butane heaters which have the cylinder on the back still on sale and widespread use. Though if you are in Papua New Guinea as your profile says, the law may differ from the UK.

I think what you are saying is that the operating procedure derived from the risk assessment of your company prohibited this. Others may however disagree.

Since I started in the Industry 51/52 years ago on the 24th August 1970, and having worked in 14 different nations including PNG where I am now it has always been the rule that no container of gas is allowed in buildings except to those used for the sampling and testing of the gases. These building are specifically designed for the handling of the gases. It includes LPG amongst them. It is a world wide practice, standard throughout the world, including here in Papua New Guinea it's not just one oil company that prohibits gases in buildings but all.

 

[birchesgreen]

Why were the sandwiches a risk? I cannot think of any potential igniting sources in a sandwich?

Maybe consuming the sandwiches would mean you were near the explosives for longer than necessary?

 

[GC class B1]

Why were the sandwiches a risk? I cannot think of any potential igniting sources in a sandwich?

No, we couldn’t either. I suspect it was a personal risk from eating them with contamination on our hands or in the air. Or it could be as the post above.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Since I started in the Industry 51/52 years ago on the 24th August 1970, and having worked in 14 different nations including PNG where I am now it has always been the rule that no container of gas is allowed in buildings except to those used for the sampling and testing of the gases. These building are specifically designed for the handling of the gases. It includes LPG amongst them. It is a world wide practice, standard throughout the world, including here in Papua New Guinea it's not just one oil company that prohibits gases in buildings but all.

So these:

Portable Gas Heaters

Buy Portable Gas Heaters from The Calor Gas Centre. We offer an easy-to-find selection of Portable Gas Heaters. Fast UK Delivery - Buy Online!

thegascentre.co.uk

...don't exist, then?

 

[cornishjohn]

They pose the same risk as an aerosol can which usually use butane as the propellant and contain a similar amount under a similar pressure. If a ban was to be enforced, a ban should be enforced on all aerosols including your hairspray in your shopping.

Which is why some aerosols are moving to an inert propellant.

So these:

Portable Gas Heaters

Buy Portable Gas Heaters from The Calor Gas Centre. We offer an easy-to-find selection of Portable Gas Heaters. Fast UK Delivery - Buy Online!

thegascentre.co.uk

...don't exist, then?

I often see portable gas stoves on sale inside buildings in supermarkets too.

Since I started in the Industry 51/52 years ago on the 24th August 1970, and having worked in 14 different nations including PNG where I am now it has always been the rule that no container of gas is allowed in buildings except to those used for the sampling and testing of the gases. These building are specifically designed for the handling of the gases. It includes LPG amongst them. It is a world wide practice, standard throughout the world, including here in Papua New Guinea it's not just one oil company that prohibits gases in buildings but all.

I am inclined to believe this is an industry regulation rather than a universal regulation. I was once on a job where we couldn't transport and use nail varnish remover (acetone) as it was too "dangerous".

While bit off topic, a colleague and myself visited an MOD site where explosives were stored. We arrived by car and wer told we couldn’t take torches or sandwiches with us to the stored railway vehicles. When I questioned whether it was ok to drive our car to the stored vehicles as it had petrol in it, we were told this was ok.

Curious. Some places where there is an explosion hazard used to (may still do) prohibit petrol vehicles as they, by design, include a high voltage spark generator.

Although the actual cause of ignition was never proved, does anybody else remember Buncefield? My dad worked in the oil industry, and was of the opinion that petrol in general was more dangerous than gunpowder. But too convenient to use, to regulate stringently, because we all wanted to have it in our cars.