Passengers And Parcels

[RichmondCommu]

G'day,

A quick question for everyone. Were passengers ever permitted to travel on parcel and newspaper trains before the traffic was lost to the motorway / airlines.

Regards,

Richmond Commuter

 

[ainsworth74]

My understanding is that a lot of parcels/newspaper trains conveyed passenger accommodation before those services were withdrawn. This gave many places links to each other even in the dead of night.

 

[northwichcat]

The 156s and other passenger units have what was designed as a parcel area.

 

[jopsuk]

I wouldn't have thought passengers would have been carried in the vans; any services that also carried passengers would surely have had passenger coaches.

 

[Ediswan]

A quick question for everyone. Were passengers ever permitted to travel on parcel and newspaper trains before the traffic was lost to the motorway / airlines.

Yes. I used a newspaper train from London to Leicester a few times in the mid 1980s. Passengers were carried in a well heated corridor coach, very cosy.

 

[telstarbox]

When did the last newspaper and parcel trains run?

 

[OuterDistant]

I believe the last newspaper traffic was in 1988.

 

[Greenback]

My understanding is that a lot of parcels/newspaper trains conveyed passenger accommodation before those services were withdrawn. This gave many places links to each other even in the dead of night.

You are correct, I know quite a few people who found the overnight 'milk train' from London to South Wales invaluable n the days that such a train ran. It was also useful for BR, as anyone who was late arriving froma connecting service, did not have to put in a taxi or or hotel! There was always a passenger coach or two attached in the old days.

 

[Drsatan]

To the best of my knowledge parcels trains stopped operating after the Red Star brand was sold to Lynx (the parcels company )following the privatisation of BR. That was arguably a backwards step given that a parcel in the guard's van of a train would today, in the majority of cases get to its destination more quickly than if it went by road.

 

[Gavioliuk]

I remember travelling many times from London to Nottingham by the late night paper train in the 1950s and 1960s. Only one coach, the rest vans. Often talked about in this house.

You were usually given a newspaper as you walked up the platform. I remember asking "how much" once only to be told one of the bundles had split open mate. So you got to read the news several hours before the majority of the public.

 

[StoneRoad]

Thanks to a mishap, I once had the pleasure of pretending to be a mail sack between Bristol and Birmingham, arrived at my destination station to find a member of staff ready to act as a taxi driver - it was very late at night (or extremely early, depending on your point of view). Many years ago, now.......today that wouldn't happen.

 

[RichmondCommu]

You are correct, I know quite a few people who found the overnight 'milk train' from London to South Wales invaluable n the days that such a train ran. It was also useful for BR, as anyone who was late arriving froma connecting service, did not have to put in a taxi or or hotel! There was always a passenger coach or two attached in the old days.

Many thanks for your reply and indeed to everyone else who has found to the time to do so. Were such trains included in the public timetable or was it just for those in the 'know' so to speak? Also, was the passenger coach included in the ensemble specifically to carry passenger or because it was required for braking purposes? I wonder whether it was the latter and the public naturally took advantage.

Thanks again, Richmond Commuter!

 

[eMeS]

I'm not quite sure if this answers your query, but in the 1950s I can remember asking Pathe Ltd if they could return our repaired cine projector by passenger train to Cheadle, Cheshire from London, as my mother needed it that evening for a film show at her local church hall. Following a phone call in the morning, it was duly put on a suitable passenger train, and we collected it at Stockport or Manchester in the afternoon, and the film show went ahead. What I can't remember is how the charge compared with Royal Mail parcels, but it may have been too heavy. I do remember that the projector was transported in its normal case (i.e. no bubble-wrap) sitting somewhere on the floor in the Guards Van.

A few years later in 1962, I had my photographic darkroom kit moved from Cheadle to Cambridge again using Rail Passenger Parcels.

 

[Wath Yard]

If the train conveyed passengers then they were in the NRT. York - Shrewsbury was quite a famous one and there were many more.

It was also possible to travel on newspaper services out of Manchester Victoria which did not convey passenger carriages. When my dad took me and my brother to a football match we ended up missing our last train from Manchester and they shoved us in the rear cab of the loco to get us home and told us not to fiddle with anything. I believe that was quite a common solution for dealing with delays and missed connections.

 

[RichmondCommu]

If the train conveyed passengers then they were in the NRT. York - Shrewsbury was quite a famous one and there were many more.

Thanks for this, very much appreciated. I wonder if the legendary Manchester - Cleethorpes was included in this; always a dead cert for Class 40 haulage right up until the end.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It was also possible to travel on newspaper services out of Manchester Victoria which did not convey passenger carriages. When my dad took me and my brother to a football match we ended up missing our last train from Manchester and they shoved us in the rear cab of the loco to get us home and told us not to fiddle with anything. I believe that was quite a common solution for dealing with delays and missed connections.

How lucky were you three! Fantastic stuff! Just out of interest where were you heading? I've never been lucky enough to have a cab ride and at 46 it's never likely to happen!

 

[Wath Yard]

From Luton - Preston. I was only young and can't remember whether there were delays or my dad misread the timetable but they got us home anyway.

I just happen to have the 1972/72 ER timetable to hand and the 01:50 Man Picc - Cleethorpes is listed, as is the 03:35 Sheffield - Lincoln.

 

[RichmondCommu]

From Luton - Preston. I was only young and can't remember whether there were delays or my dad misread the timetable but they got us home anyway.

I just happen to have the 1972/72 ER timetable to hand and the 01:50 Man Picc - Cleethorpes is listed, as is the 03:35 Sheffield - Lincoln.

Good old BR! Wouldn't happen today, Euston to Preston is quite a stretch!

Many thanks for your timetable information, RIP Manchester Red Bank which is where the Cleethorpes empties ran to if I recall.

 

[Ediswan]

Many thanks for your reply and indeed to everyone else who has found to the time to do so. Were such trains included in the public timetable or was it just for those in the 'know' so to speak?

The London-Leicester train I used was in the public timetable. If I recall correctly, it departed around 02:00. First time, I was not aware it was a newspaper train until I arrived and found what initially appeared to be a goods/freight train at the platform.

 

[Bevan Price]

Never did them myself, but there used to be a few Class 73-worked trains out of London Victoria & Waterloo in the late evening / very early morning, with a couple of passenger coaches plus vans for newspapers.

 

[dk1]

If any DMU failed overnight at Great Yarmouth then the NPCCS was used. Frequently it ended up on the 06.42 or 07.05 to Norwich. As it only had 3 compartments most passengers stood or sat on the floor in the paper van.

 

[eastwestdivide]

Never did them myself, but there used to be a few Class 73-worked trains out of London Victoria & Waterloo in the late evening / very early morning, with a couple of passenger coaches plus vans for newspapers.

The Southern ones were around 0200-0300 out of London (in the 70s/80s), with slightly extended station stops along the line for unloading the papers.
Did one once for curiosity, picked it up at Rochester at 0345-ish, single Mk1 BSK in among the vans. Ended up at Ramsgate something before 0600, before taking normal service trains trundling all the way around the Southern Region's coast to Weymouth on a SR rover, but that's another story.
The move of most of the printing presses out of Fleet Street pretty much coincided with the end of newspaper traffic on rail

 

[jopsuk]

There's no presses in Fleet Street any more as far as I'm aware. Ones around London that i know of:
Guardian is near West Ham
Asscociated have a big plant at Canda Water- prints the Mail, Evening Standard, London edition of Metro and I think the Independent gets printed there too
News Group has a massive plant at Broxbourne- pretty sure all printing at Wapping stopped a few years ago.

There's also a lot of remote printing- in the hot-metal letterset days on Fleet Street there was no easy way to send the layout of the paper elsewhere; these days someone can click a button in a control room and a printing plate can come out of a machine several hundred miles away ready to be put on the press- this extends to the Sun and Mail having contracts with printers in Spain and other Med countries. But more relevantly the high-volume papers are printed at various locations around the country, reducing the need for long distance distribution. Even the Guardian, which has uniquely sized presses (in this country) for it's odd format has a press in Manchester and two in London (side by side, I've been in there)

 

[telstarbox]

Were mail hooks ever used in Great Britain to collect mail without the train having to stop? And was there any way of offloading mail from a moving train?

 

[jopsuk]

They were, though more mechanised. To unload used a similar system. I think one or two preserved lines have the equipment and suitable carriages, and run occasional demonstrations.
more detail and an equipped carriage here

 

[RichmondCommu]

If any DMU failed overnight at Great Yarmouth then the NPCCS was used. Frequently it ended up on the 06.42 or 07.05 to Norwich. As it only had 3 compartments most passengers stood or sat on the floor in the paper van.

Sorry for my ignorance but what is a NPCCS?

 

[6Gman]

Sorry for my ignorance but what is a NPCCS?

Non passenger-carrying coaching stock.

i.e. vehicles which were classified as coaching stock (rather than freight vehicles) but had no provision for passengers.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Non passenger-carrying coaching stock.

i.e. vehicles which were classified as coaching stock (rather than freight vehicles) but had no provision for passengers.

Thanks for this. I'm not so sure that I would sit on the floor of a dirty old newspaper van if I'd got my suit on but obviously it was better than nothing! It's sad to think of all the parcels vans that have been cut up over the last 20 years.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

They were, though more mechanised. To unload used a similar system. I think one or two preserved lines have the equipment and suitable carriages, and run occasional demonstrations.
more detail and an equipped carriage here

I think the Great Central has one of these. Also during the Autumn Steam Gala on the SVR there was a postal sorting van on display in the Highley museum.

 

[Holly]

I wouldn't have thought passengers would have been carried in the vans; any services that also carried passengers would surely have had passenger coaches.

Yes, typically two, sometimes only one, Mk 1 corridor coach coupled adjacent to the locomotive. Either you had a reasonable shot of half (or even a whole) corridor compartment to yourself. Unless there were sailors or soldiers going home on leave, then it would be packed and indeed some army boys might then kip up in a parcels vehicle.

So if you boarded at Euston (shortly after midnight I seem to recall) for the four hour trip to Crewe (with many stops along the way to load/unload papers and parcels) you would pretty much have to walk the length of the (seemed very long) train to reach the coaches.

There is still a case for long distance overnight trains (other than sleepers), stop everywhere and travel slowly so folks mostly don't arrive too too early. There is an unmet need for a theatre-goers special. A London to the NorthWest stopper leaving around midnight. Were those Olympics specials well patronised?

 

[DXMachina]

There is still a case for long distance overnight trains (other than sleepers), stop everywhere and travel slowly so folks mostly don't arrive too too early. There is an unmet need for a theatre-goers special. A London to the NorthWest stopper leaving around midnight.

potential job for 319s made redundant by 110mph GWML EMUs

 

[steamybrian]

The Southern ones were around 0200-0300 out of London (in the 70s/80s), with slightly extended station stops along the line for unloading the papers.
Did one once for curiosity, picked it up at Rochester at 0345-ish, single Mk1 BSK in among the vans. Ended up at Ramsgate something before 0600, before taking normal service trains trundling all the way around the Southern Region's coast to Weymouth on a SR rover, but that's another story.
The move of most of the printing presses out of Fleet Street pretty much coincided with the end of newspaper traffic on rail

I remember on the Southern Region trains such as 0145 Waterloo to Yeovil Junction, 0320 Victoria to Brighton and 0327 Victoria- Eastbourne, 0340 Victoria to Dover via Tonbridge plus various others which I cannot remember. All were in the timetable and all conveyed 1 or 2 mark 1 coaches amongst the rake of parcel vans conveying newspapers.
All the trains were normally well loaded with passengers and in those BR days guards allowed you to sit on top of a pile of newspapers if the passenger coach was really full.