Passengers abandon train at Lewisham with 3rd rails still live.

[nom de guerre]

An operations brief regarding the March incident(s) has been doing the rounds at my 'box this week.

All the expected reminders regarding Emergency Permissive Working, GSM-R General Broadcasts and communicating with Control, plus some discussion of timescales.

 

[backontrack]

This just backs up how all UK trains should have toilets does it not?

I believe that it does.

 

[Daz28]

Most SE trains are made up of multiple units so you can’t walk through the whole train. Even within a unit, the interconnecting doors are very temperemental, and you often can’t pass into the next carriage. Being electric doors, they are even less reliable when the power has been off for some time. Assuming they were doing a train to train evacuation using a ramp/bridge, getting all the passengers into the same carriage would have taken some arranging, even more so if any were disabled / infirm.

My understanding is that there were multiple issues at play with power switched off for a period, and a “problem with line side equipment”, whatever that euphemism means. There was also a separate signalling issue nearby.

 

[Daz28]

So in the first instance SE need to be made to solve their bog problem whatever it costs them, and in the second instance the trains they have without bogs need them fitting. And a train with them fitted starting its journey from any given station with no toilet facility in operation needs a financial penalty to the TOC of maybe £10 less than an outright cancellation.

At my local SouthEastern metro station, there is a new announcement, after each train is announced, using a different pre-recorded voice “We are sorry but there is no accessible toilet facility on this train.”

Which is pretty much every train at the moment.

 

[Bletchleyite]

At my local SouthEastern metro station, there is a new announcement, after each train is announced, using a different pre-recorded voice “We are sorry but there is no accessible toilet facility on this train.”

Which is pretty much every train at the moment.

Which is unacceptable.

They need to find a way to get the toilets back into use, however costly it is to them. I know they are allegedly looking at it, but they are not looking at it hard enough.

 

[ComUtoR]

I know they are allegedly looking at it, but they are not looking at it hard enough.

Are you fully aware of what the issue is and do you have evidence they are not trying hard enough to resolve it ? Do you know what actions they are currently taking ?

 

[Daz28]

Are you fully aware of what the issue is and do you have evidence they are not trying hard enough to resolve it ? Do you know what actions they are currently taking ?

The issue has been ongoing for months, SE has done very little communication to their paying customers about the issue, and their is no information in the public domain as to when it will be resolved. What else is one to assume other than they are not treating it as a high priority?

 

[ComUtoR]

What else is one to assume other than they are not treating it as a high priority?

Which is exactly what it is. An Assumption. Just because it hasn't been resolved, doesn't mean its not a priority. There is no magic wand to instantly solve a problem overnight.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Which is exactly what it is. An Assumption. Just because it hasn't been resolved, doesn't mean its not a priority. There is no magic wand to instantly solve a problem overnight.

Then they should communicate with passengers about the issue and what they have done so far to solve it, and what the plan is to go forward including key dates.

 

[ComUtoR]

Then they should communicate with passengers about the issue and what they have done so far to solve it, and what the plan is to go forward including key dates.

I agree.

I assure you its high priority and they are being penalized financially.

 

[farleigh]

Trains always used to have working toilets. I wonder why they keep going wrong

 

[edwin_m]

Trains always used to have working toilets. I wonder why they keep going wrong

Possibly because when there was just a flush and a dump onto the track there wasn't much that could go wrong. Even if the flush didn't work people could still use it as a matter of desperation.

However that is not now acceptable, rightly or wrongly, and there are various reasons why a simple retention tank won't work on most types of stock. So we need a much more high-tech system which won't work without power and which has numerous components that could fail and take the toilet out of service. If there is a power door, as required for accessible toilets, then any of these faults will lock it so it isn't available to anybody.

 

[Bromley boy]

Unfortunately events today, in exactly the same area, prompted a certain deja vu:

http://www.newsshopper.co.uk/news/1...n-southeastern-train-at-lewisham-for-3-hours/

Passengers were stuck on a train for more than three hours after it broke down outside Lewisham station.

The Southeastern train broke down shortly before 10am today (April 5) between New Cross and Lewisham, with passengers describing the situation as “beyond frustration”.

One passenger tweeted at Southeastern: “If the line is bust can’t you assist passengers off the train? Lewisham station is literally 100 meters away. This is beyond frustrating.”

Southeastern explained that would require turning off the power to every other line as well, something that the train company had to do when passengers fled trains during the Beast from the East snow storm last month.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I agree.

I assure you its high priority and they are being penalized financially.

Cheers.

 

[farleigh]

I wonder if that poster who said he would rather soil himself than leave a train is getting nervous?

Maybe he misunderstood the other passengers' suggestion that he evacuate.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I wonder if that poster who said he would rather soil himself than leave a train is getting nervous?

Maybe he misunderstood the other passengers' suggestion that he evacuate.

 

[Bensonby]

In these circumstances why don’t hey have a thunderbird diesel locomotive that can come down and rescue the unit? Surely that would be the obvious solution?

 

[hexagon789]

In these circumstances why don’t hey have a thunderbird diesel locomotive that can come down and rescue the unit? Surely that would be the obvious solution?

Some companies do, but not all have the relevant coupling adaptors and you generally can't go that fast with loco+multiple unit combinations as the braking systems are generally incompatible.

Using like traction is generally preferred.

 

[edwin_m]

Also you have to get all the other trains out of the way before you can start rescuing the stranded one. In a busy area it's highly likely that one of those other trains is compatible with the one to be rescued.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Some companies do, but not all have the relevant coupling adaptors and you generally can't go that fast with loco+multiple unit combinations as the braking systems are generally incompatible.

Using like traction is generally preferred.

Though does cause the not unusual problem whereby you whack a second unit on and that blows up too. The advantage of the simple loco haul is that the only connection you are making is physical (and possibly brake lines) so you aren't going to wreck the rescue loco due to an electrical fault.

 

[LAX54]

In these circumstances why don’t hey have a thunderbird diesel locomotive that can come down and rescue the unit? Surely that would be the obvious solution?

Easier said than done, the Tbird maybe miles away, plus if the failed unit is stuck between two others then there is another problem, then of course there is the coupling issue, Tbird can normally be last resort like for like unit is best option

 

[hexagon789]

Though does cause the not unusual problem whereby you whack a second unit on and that blows up too. The advantage of the simple loco haul is that the only connection you are making is physical (and possibly brake lines) so you aren't going to wreck the rescue loco due to an electrical fault.

True, though I didn't mean I would prefer the use of like traction for rescuing simply that it seems to be the done thing.

 

[sbt]

With regard to toilet facilities on stranded trains. In the past I have had reason to construct expedient Elsans using refuse bags (use two, inside each other, to reduce the chance of leaks). I also seem to remember temperary toilets that used a self assembly seat box constructed from multiple layers of thick cardboard. IIRC those used a bag of sawdust. Maybe trains without working toilets could be supplied with Emergancy Only toilets along the same lines? Sawdust would probably not be an option due to storage space but a suitable bag, disinfectant and scent tablet with a self-assembly style seat box might be practical as a means of making long strandings less fraught and reducing the chances of passengers leaving the train.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, this seems a very good idea.

 

[noddingdonkey]

Though does cause the not unusual problem whereby you whack a second unit on and that blows up too. The advantage of the simple loco haul is that the only connection you are making is physical (and possibly brake lines) so you aren't going to wreck the rescue loco due to an electrical fault.

Is it not still possible to pull the electrical connections on the coupler back so that only a mechanical connection is made to avoid that problem?

 

[Chrisgr31]

Southern had issues on Wednesday on the Oxted lines where they had a failed train. However they were able to split it and take one half back to Oxted, however even that meant it was several hours after it first became stranded the passengers were able to get off. I am not sure this whole target for getting people off a train has been thought through, so it all relies on having the right staff etc. Leaving aside the fact the natural first effort is to try and get the first train moving.

 

[KingJ]

One of the independent reports has come out today. Unfortunately i've been unable to find the original report, only the press (Kent Messenger, RAIL) reporting on it.

 

[Daz28]

The report can be found here https://cdn.prgloo.com/media/download/5cc04fabf4a84e81bc4e4e7c9008e7ba

 

[KingJ]

The report can be found here https://cdn.prgloo.com/media/download/5cc04fabf4a84e81bc4e4e7c9008e7ba

Thank you! Always good to read the original source where possible.

 

[theageofthetra]

Within that report towards the end note how having other competent rail staff on board (working or otherwise) made a significant difference to whether self evacuation took place.