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Passengers abandon train at Lewisham with 3rd rails still live.

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AlterEgo

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And since you weren't there either.................................

It doesn’t seem that unreasonable to suppose that the people who detrained were ordinary people like anyone else.

The conditions on that train sound appalling, with people having to p*** around each other and there being no heating.

I don’t condone walking on the track unsupervised but equally I’m not stupid enough to fail to sympathise with those who did.
 
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Taunton

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Rail management comment in the media continues to show they have just missed the point. They carry on wittering like a broken record about the dangers of being on the tracks, where if I am not mistaken nobody has ever come to any harm during a self-evacuation after a gross delay, and continue to fail to acknowledge that conditions on board were quite beyond acceptable, but were never realised or even thought about as such back at Control, or by those few management (as it was after 5pm) who were still in comfortable, well heated offices at the time.
 

corfield

Member
Joined
17 Feb 2012
Messages
478
All this talk about permissive working ignores a few facts which ruled that out as an option.

For the first half hour or so all trains were stuck with power on, with the possible exception of the one trying to exit Lewisham and head to Blackheath, which was stuck because it couldn’t draw power. Whether it had enough power for heating, lighting and PA is not clear.

NR arrived on scene and switched off the power for that line only to enable them to clear the ice from the conductor rail. At this point the train behind would not have been able to move forward to assist. The expectation was that within 20 minutes the ice would be clear and all trains would be on the move again.
Unfortunately before the hour was up, someone detained themselves. It is not clear which train this was, but once there was a passenger loose on the tracks, the power had to be cut to all lines through Lewisham.

This caused the delay to be extended, whilst the train in question was resecured and the passenger confirmed to be safe. It also meant the passengers remaining in that train were now getting very cold as the doors were open and heating off.

This extended delay led to more passengers detraining, further extending the delay.

SE Twitter were getting quite desperate, pleading with passengers to stay on trains. Each tine they were ready to resume power, someone else jumped off, resetting the situation. This spread to more trains in the queue, causing the area affected to extend, leaving more trains in the dark.

The total delay would probably have been up to an hour had it not been passengers detraining. Instead the trains at the back of the queue were heading towards a four hour delay by the time everything was moving again.

I imagine it was a really tricky situation to manage. They were probably 20minutes away from getting everyone moving for about three hours.


Assuming this is an accurate picture of what happened, then firstly I've a lot of sympathy for those trying to manage the situation, from the no doubt cold NR supervisor on the ground to those in the remote Ops room with facts flying, multiple situations, rule books being thumbed, people trying to make decisions and the delay, rumours and change plus the need to coordinate with all the various agencies, all no doubt with higher up/external organisations demanding information and so on. As a military person I've a fair bit of experience with difficult and complex situations which depart from planned normality, both on the ground and in HQs, and even with the best will in the world and lots of training, it is only ever going to be semi-organised chaos at best. The quality of decisions in that environment comes down to training (thinking clearly under stress), knowledge and experience (what the rules are, how you can bend and break them) and sheer luck. The more of each, the more likely you are to make good judgements and the situation work out ok rather than a catastrophe.

Having said that - reading the above I'm struck with the repetition of something that clearly wasn't working, and how we in the military world beast ourselves with "if the plan isn't working, change the plan". Now we don't necessarily have a great record of actually implementing it in the breach, but its underpinned every aspect of my training, and pretty much sums up what we do in situations. Have a plan, try and implement it, but crucially, keep evaluating it. If things aren't going right, then change the plan.

In this situation, the plan to clear the ice and get the trains moving was clearly a good plan at the outset, and would deliver the desired passenger (& operator) result (win-win). However, once it starts taking a bit longer than planned, and once you've had to widen your isolation area due to people getting off (which rightly or not, they did), then your plan is pretty much in tatters. Trying to keep to that plan, recovering the people, re-securing the trains to potentially re-apply power whilst de-icing, is an obviously losing battle. It would have been a major effort to coordinate working out what was going on and to respond to it in the way they did, and can only ever have taken time, measured in hours (which fits the timelines). In that time, people, having already seen an example of what they can do to "self help", will only ever do one thing: follow on sooner or later.

Criticise the people getting off if it makes you feel better, but its human factors coming up against a Rule Book. As a student of reality, human factors will win every time in terms of what happens. A rule book that doesn't account for human factors is a bad rule book. Or at least, if implementation of the rule book doesn't given scope for suitably experienced and qualified people to go "out of limits" then it is a bad system.

In this case, once they'd realised people had de-trained somewhere and the implication of an inability to regain the situation (especially after the first time round the loop trying to re-secure only to find others had detrained), I suspect a decision to abandon their attempts to recover train movement and focus entirely on a more controlled evacuation would have been the better option than trying to push the snowball back uphill.

Finally: a key part of our military process is communication. Keep communicating to people what you are doing, and more so, what you are trying to achieve. That way they are much, much less likely to strike off on things that they think will help them/everyone (but don't) and much more likely to have the patience to wait until you task them. This is a problem as we train people to use their initiative and that doing something is better than doing nothing. Except that often it isn't! hence keeping everyone informed of the what and the why helps avoid confusion and counter productive activities. Which given the situations are already extremely confusing and of course "the enemy has a voice too" makes life quite challenging. So as above - I've considerable sympathy for the operators here, but it does appear as if an earlier recognition that the situation was departing control (and a timeframe of 3-4 hours is a perfect example of how things can rapidly start to drag on as you have to wait for answers and coordinate with people who then need to physically move locations etc. and so start to lose your momentum and control of events) and a change was needed. Ultimately, the failure to recognise and adapt led to what I would say is an inevitable human factors outcome since people will always run out of patience and start to take control of their own destiny - their perception of risk at that point being very distorted by the natural drive to "take control" and the positive feelings that activity releases. Throwing criticism at them is unlikely to achieve anything, and rather masks a systemic failure to include the people aspect in the operator's planning. Which is reflected in the many comments that support the pax actions - ultimately this railway business is all about people, not things and rules. Forget its about people, forget they are essentially mental (we talk about making things "squaddie proof" for very good reasons borne of experience) and you are not going to have a happy outcome.

Err, sorry for waffling!
 

corfield

Member
Joined
17 Feb 2012
Messages
478
As said very well in Men In Black: "A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it."

Treat them like passive things that you can control with minimum communication and rules, and you are going to get smashed every single time.

The difficult bit of course is accurately accounting for people in your planning. Hence why only a system emphasising training, knowledge and experience and giving suitable persons the authority (and protection) to diverge from the rules in a semi-controlled way when the situation departs from normality; can work.
 

Robertj21a

On Moderation
Joined
22 Sep 2013
Messages
7,691
Assuming this is an accurate picture of what happened, then firstly I've a lot of sympathy for those trying to manage the situation, from the no doubt cold NR supervisor on the ground to those in the remote Ops room with facts flying, multiple situations, rule books being thumbed, people trying to make decisions and the delay, rumours and change plus the need to coordinate with all the various agencies, all no doubt with higher up/external organisations demanding information and so on. As a military person I've a fair bit of experience with difficult and complex situations which depart from planned normality, both on the ground and in HQs, and even with the best will in the world and lots of training, it is only ever going to be semi-organised chaos at best. The quality of decisions in that environment comes down to training (thinking clearly under stress), knowledge and experience (what the rules are, how you can bend and break them) and sheer luck. The more of each, the more likely you are to make good judgements and the situation work out ok rather than a catastrophe.

Having said that - reading the above I'm struck with the repetition of something that clearly wasn't working, and how we in the military world beast ourselves with "if the plan isn't working, change the plan". Now we don't necessarily have a great record of actually implementing it in the breach, but its underpinned every aspect of my training, and pretty much sums up what we do in situations. Have a plan, try and implement it, but crucially, keep evaluating it. If things aren't going right, then change the plan.

In this situation, the plan to clear the ice and get the trains moving was clearly a good plan at the outset, and would deliver the desired passenger (& operator) result (win-win). However, once it starts taking a bit longer than planned, and once you've had to widen your isolation area due to people getting off (which rightly or not, they did), then your plan is pretty much in tatters. Trying to keep to that plan, recovering the people, re-securing the trains to potentially re-apply power whilst de-icing, is an obviously losing battle. It would have been a major effort to coordinate working out what was going on and to respond to it in the way they did, and can only ever have taken time, measured in hours (which fits the timelines). In that time, people, having already seen an example of what they can do to "self help", will only ever do one thing: follow on sooner or later.

Criticise the people getting off if it makes you feel better, but its human factors coming up against a Rule Book. As a student of reality, human factors will win every time in terms of what happens. A rule book that doesn't account for human factors is a bad rule book. Or at least, if implementation of the rule book doesn't given scope for suitably experienced and qualified people to go "out of limits" then it is a bad system.

In this case, once they'd realised people had de-trained somewhere and the implication of an inability to regain the situation (especially after the first time round the loop trying to re-secure only to find others had detrained), I suspect a decision to abandon their attempts to recover train movement and focus entirely on a more controlled evacuation would have been the better option than trying to push the snowball back uphill.

Finally: a key part of our military process is communication. Keep communicating to people what you are doing, and more so, what you are trying to achieve. That way they are much, much less likely to strike off on things that they think will help them/everyone (but don't) and much more likely to have the patience to wait until you task them. This is a problem as we train people to use their initiative and that doing something is better than doing nothing. Except that often it isn't! hence keeping everyone informed of the what and the why helps avoid confusion and counter productive activities. Which given the situations are already extremely confusing and of course "the enemy has a voice too" makes life quite challenging. So as above - I've considerable sympathy for the operators here, but it does appear as if an earlier recognition that the situation was departing control (and a timeframe of 3-4 hours is a perfect example of how things can rapidly start to drag on as you have to wait for answers and coordinate with people who then need to physically move locations etc. and so start to lose your momentum and control of events) and a change was needed. Ultimately, the failure to recognise and adapt led to what I would say is an inevitable human factors outcome since people will always run out of patience and start to take control of their own destiny - their perception of risk at that point being very distorted by the natural drive to "take control" and the positive feelings that activity releases. Throwing criticism at them is unlikely to achieve anything, and rather masks a systemic failure to include the people aspect in the operator's planning. Which is reflected in the many comments that support the pax actions - ultimately this railway business is all about people, not things and rules. Forget its about people, forget they are essentially mental (we talk about making things "squaddie proof" for very good reasons borne of experience) and you are not going to have a happy outcome.

Err, sorry for waffling!


Well said, an excellent piece.

Just waiting for the first comment to say that it's all quite impossible - due to Rules etc.....

:)
 

sefton

Member
Joined
30 Oct 2017
Messages
590
Assuming this is an accurate picture of what happened, then firstly I've a lot of sympathy for those trying to manage the situation, from the no doubt cold NR supervisor on the ground to those in the remote Ops room with facts flying, multiple situations, rule books being thumbed, people trying to make decisions and the delay, rumours and change plus the need to coordinate with all the various agencies, all no doubt with higher up/external organisations demanding information and so on. As a military person I've a fair bit of experience with difficult and complex situations which depart from planned normality, both on the ground and in HQs, and even with the best will in the world and lots of training, it is only ever going to be semi-organised chaos at best. The quality of decisions in that environment comes down to training (thinking clearly under stress), knowledge and experience (what the rules are, how you can bend and break them) and sheer luck. The more of each, the more likely you are to make good judgements and the situation work out ok rather than a catastrophe.

Having said that - reading the above I'm struck with the repetition of something that clearly wasn't working, and how we in the military world beast ourselves with "if the plan isn't working, change the plan". Now we don't necessarily have a great record of actually implementing it in the breach, but its underpinned every aspect of my training, and pretty much sums up what we do in situations. Have a plan, try and implement it, but crucially, keep evaluating it. If things aren't going right, then change the plan.

In this situation, the plan to clear the ice and get the trains moving was clearly a good plan at the outset, and would deliver the desired passenger (& operator) result (win-win). However, once it starts taking a bit longer than planned, and once you've had to widen your isolation area due to people getting off (which rightly or not, they did), then your plan is pretty much in tatters. Trying to keep to that plan, recovering the people, re-securing the trains to potentially re-apply power whilst de-icing, is an obviously losing battle. It would have been a major effort to coordinate working out what was going on and to respond to it in the way they did, and can only ever have taken time, measured in hours (which fits the timelines). In that time, people, having already seen an example of what they can do to "self help", will only ever do one thing: follow on sooner or later.

Criticise the people getting off if it makes you feel better, but its human factors coming up against a Rule Book. As a student of reality, human factors will win every time in terms of what happens. A rule book that doesn't account for human factors is a bad rule book. Or at least, if implementation of the rule book doesn't given scope for suitably experienced and qualified people to go "out of limits" then it is a bad system.

In this case, once they'd realised people had de-trained somewhere and the implication of an inability to regain the situation (especially after the first time round the loop trying to re-secure only to find others had detrained), I suspect a decision to abandon their attempts to recover train movement and focus entirely on a more controlled evacuation would have been the better option than trying to push the snowball back uphill.

Finally: a key part of our military process is communication. Keep communicating to people what you are doing, and more so, what you are trying to achieve. That way they are much, much less likely to strike off on things that they think will help them/everyone (but don't) and much more likely to have the patience to wait until you task them. This is a problem as we train people to use their initiative and that doing something is better than doing nothing. Except that often it isn't! hence keeping everyone informed of the what and the why helps avoid confusion and counter productive activities. Which given the situations are already extremely confusing and of course "the enemy has a voice too" makes life quite challenging. So as above - I've considerable sympathy for the operators here, but it does appear as if an earlier recognition that the situation was departing control (and a timeframe of 3-4 hours is a perfect example of how things can rapidly start to drag on as you have to wait for answers and coordinate with people who then need to physically move locations etc. and so start to lose your momentum and control of events) and a change was needed. Ultimately, the failure to recognise and adapt led to what I would say is an inevitable human factors outcome since people will always run out of patience and start to take control of their own destiny - their perception of risk at that point being very distorted by the natural drive to "take control" and the positive feelings that activity releases. Throwing criticism at them is unlikely to achieve anything, and rather masks a systemic failure to include the people aspect in the operator's planning. Which is reflected in the many comments that support the pax actions - ultimately this railway business is all about people, not things and rules. Forget its about people, forget they are essentially mental (we talk about making things "squaddie proof" for very good reasons borne of experience) and you are not going to have a happy outcome.

Excellent post which exactly describes how the train companies got into the mess they did that night.

However I strongly doubt they will learn from it.
 

otomous

Member
Joined
5 Oct 2011
Messages
444
Assuming this is an accurate picture of what happened, then firstly I've a lot of sympathy for those trying to manage the situation, from the no doubt cold NR supervisor on the ground to those in the remote Ops room with facts flying, multiple situations, rule books being thumbed, people trying to make decisions and the delay, rumours and change plus the need to coordinate with all the various agencies, all no doubt with higher up/external organisations demanding information and so on. As a military person I've a fair bit of experience with difficult and complex situations which depart from planned normality, both on the ground and in HQs, and even with the best will in the world and lots of training, it is only ever going to be semi-organised chaos at best. The quality of decisions in that environment comes down to training (thinking clearly under stress), knowledge and experience (what the rules are, how you can bend and break them) and sheer luck. The more of each, the more likely you are to make good judgements and the situation work out ok rather than a catastrophe.

Having said that - reading the above I'm struck with the repetition of something that clearly wasn't working, and how we in the military world beast ourselves with "if the plan isn't working, change the plan". Now we don't necessarily have a great record of actually implementing it in the breach, but its underpinned every aspect of my training, and pretty much sums up what we do in situations. Have a plan, try and implement it, but crucially, keep evaluating it. If things aren't going right, then change the plan.

In this situation, the plan to clear the ice and get the trains moving was clearly a good plan at the outset, and would deliver the desired passenger (& operator) result (win-win). However, once it starts taking a bit longer than planned, and once you've had to widen your isolation area due to people getting off (which rightly or not, they did), then your plan is pretty much in tatters. Trying to keep to that plan, recovering the people, re-securing the trains to potentially re-apply power whilst de-icing, is an obviously losing battle. It would have been a major effort to coordinate working out what was going on and to respond to it in the way they did, and can only ever have taken time, measured in hours (which fits the timelines). In that time, people, having already seen an example of what they can do to "self help", will only ever do one thing: follow on sooner or later.

Criticise the people getting off if it makes you feel better, but its human factors coming up against a Rule Book. As a student of reality, human factors will win every time in terms of what happens. A rule book that doesn't account for human factors is a bad rule book. Or at least, if implementation of the rule book doesn't given scope for suitably experienced and qualified people to go "out of limits" then it is a bad system.

In this case, once they'd realised people had de-trained somewhere and the implication of an inability to regain the situation (especially after the first time round the loop trying to re-secure only to find others had detrained), I suspect a decision to abandon their attempts to recover train movement and focus entirely on a more controlled evacuation would have been the better option than trying to push the snowball back uphill.

Finally: a key part of our military process is communication. Keep communicating to people what you are doing, and more so, what you are trying to achieve. That way they are much, much less likely to strike off on things that they think will help them/everyone (but don't) and much more likely to have the patience to wait until you task them. This is a problem as we train people to use their initiative and that doing something is better than doing nothing. Except that often it isn't! hence keeping everyone informed of the what and the why helps avoid confusion and counter productive activities. Which given the situations are already extremely confusing and of course "the enemy has a voice too" makes life quite challenging. So as above - I've considerable sympathy for the operators here, but it does appear as if an earlier recognition that the situation was departing control (and a timeframe of 3-4 hours is a perfect example of how things can rapidly start to drag on as you have to wait for answers and coordinate with people who then need to physically move locations etc. and so start to lose your momentum and control of events) and a change was needed. Ultimately, the failure to recognise and adapt led to what I would say is an inevitable human factors outcome since people will always run out of patience and start to take control of their own destiny - their perception of risk at that point being very distorted by the natural drive to "take control" and the positive feelings that activity releases. Throwing criticism at them is unlikely to achieve anything, and rather masks a systemic failure to include the people aspect in the operator's planning. Which is reflected in the many comments that support the pax actions - ultimately this railway business is all about people, not things and rules. Forget its about people, forget they are essentially mental (we talk about making things "squaddie proof" for very good reasons borne of experience) and you are not going to have a happy outcome.

Err, sorry for waffling!

Great post. Having had a tiny brush with the forces before becoming a driver, I expected the response to be like a Marine unit in such circumstances, but instead it tends to be somewhat less than Dad’s Army’s. Part of the problem is that those on the front line have been deprived of any ability to make decisions or take control of a situation - even a minor fault that could be solved in minutes requires several calls to satisfy procedure which means it ends up taking much longer to fix with subsequent knock on on other trains - but that vacuum has not been filled with any clear chain of command and action elsewhere. The driver, guard etc faces disciplinary action for using initiative so dare not; but then are left to deal with the consequences of the failure of managers above them being unable or unwilling to make decisions. I have known drivers threatened with gross misconduct for insisting on waiting for late running replacement buses for example. There do not seem to any attempts to work towards a common end - the BTP, Network Rail and the TOCS all have their own agenda and certainly this prevents anyone coming up and a plan and deploying it before passengers take things into their own hands.
 

Raul_Duke

Member
Joined
29 Mar 2014
Messages
396
Great post. Having had a tiny brush with the forces before becoming a driver, I expected the response to be like a Marine unit in such circumstances, but instead it tends to be somewhat less than Dad’s Army’s. Part of the problem is that those on the front line have been deprived of any ability to make decisions or take control of a situation - even a minor fault that could be solved in minutes requires several calls to satisfy procedure which means it ends up taking much longer to fix with subsequent knock on on other trains - but that vacuum has not been filled with any clear chain of command and action elsewhere. The driver, guard etc faces disciplinary action for using initiative so dare not; but then are left to deal with the consequences of the failure of managers above them being unable or unwilling to make decisions. I have known drivers threatened with gross misconduct for insisting on waiting for late running replacement buses for example. There do not seem to any attempts to work towards a common end - the BTP, Network Rail and the TOCS all have their own agenda and certainly this prevents anyone coming up and a plan and deploying it before passengers take things into their own hands.

That’s a really good point about decision making and initiative. Even if you’ve come to a stand for something as simple as a breaker tripped out, you can’t just trip it back. You have to ring maintenance, because then the delay goes out of their budget. Even if this is going to take longer and ultimately cost more.
 

theageofthetra

Established Member
Joined
27 May 2012
Messages
3,565
Location
Beckenham
Great post. Having had a tiny brush with the forces before becoming a driver, I expected the response to be like a Marine unit in such circumstances, but instead it tends to be somewhat less than Dad’s Army’s. Part of the problem is that those on the front line have been deprived of any ability to make decisions or take control of a situation - even a minor fault that could be solved in minutes requires several calls to satisfy procedure which means it ends up taking much longer to fix with subsequent knock on on other trains - but that vacuum has not been filled with any clear chain of command and action elsewhere. The driver, guard etc faces disciplinary action for using initiative so dare not; but then are left to deal with the consequences of the failure of managers above them being unable or unwilling to make decisions. I have known drivers threatened with gross misconduct for insisting on waiting for late running replacement buses for example. There do not seem to any attempts to work towards a common end - the BTP, Network Rail and the TOCS all have their own agenda and certainly this prevents anyone coming up and a plan and deploying it before passengers take things into their own hands.
About as accurate a summary of how this industry operates as I've seen.
 

DynamicSpirit

Established Member
Joined
12 Apr 2012
Messages
9,218
Location
SE London
In this situation, the plan to clear the ice and get the trains moving was clearly a good plan at the outset, and would deliver the desired passenger (& operator) result (win-win). However, once it starts taking a bit longer than planned, and once you've had to widen your isolation area due to people getting off (which rightly or not, they did), then your plan is pretty much in tatters. Trying to keep to that plan, recovering the people, re-securing the trains to potentially re-apply power whilst de-icing, is an obviously losing battle. It would have been a major effort to coordinate working out what was going on and to respond to it in the way they did, and can only ever have taken time, measured in hours (which fits the timelines). In that time, people, having already seen an example of what they can do to "self help", will only ever do one thing: follow on sooner or later.

Criticise the people getting off if it makes you feel better, but its human factors coming up against a Rule Book. As a student of reality, human factors will win every time in terms of what happens. A rule book that doesn't account for human factors is a bad rule book. Or at least, if implementation of the rule book doesn't given scope for suitably experienced and qualified people to go "out of limits" then it is a bad system.

In this case, once they'd realised people had de-trained somewhere and the implication of an inability to regain the situation (especially after the first time round the loop trying to re-secure only to find others had detrained), I suspect a decision to abandon their attempts to recover train movement and focus entirely on a more controlled evacuation would have been the better option than trying to push the snowball back uphill.

That was pretty much my thought too. I doubt SouthEastern could have done anything differently up to the point at which the first passenger got off the train. But with hindsight (and I know things are always easy with hindsight) perhaps it would have been more sensible, once that passenger was off, the power was cut and multiple trains were therefore now stuck with no power or heating, for someone to realize that in this situation trains would become very dark and very cold, and it was inevitable that more passengers would start de-training (I hate that word) before too long,. Therefore the least bad thing to do would now be to just get everyone off all the stranded trains as soon as possible, so that they wouldn't then be continually delaying the eventual restoration of power.

A couple of other possible questions and lessons for the future that strike me:
  • Trains that you can't walk through the whole train potentially make evacuation very hard. Perhaps future guidelines should be that new EMUs and DMUs that are intended to be connected together should always be built with a through passageway through to the end of the unit (On this note: how would you evacuate a class 465 if it was stuck in a tunnel?)
  • There are already many reasons why having guards on all trains would be very desirable (personally I'd feel much more comfortable travelling on SouthEastern if a guard was regularly walking through the train to check tickets etc., not least in order to deter antisocial behaviour). But the events of Friday give another reason why an extra trained member of staff on the train would be very useful.
  • Over how wide an area did power have to be cut when the first person detrained? Was it only cut in the area that person was plausibly likely to be in, or did the limitations of the equipment force power to be cut over a much wider area? If so, is that a possible area for improvements to the power supply equipment?
  • As other people have pointed out, not having station staff trained to go on the track and to assist in evacuating trains seems a pretty big oversight. I know there's some cost to doing so, but surely, compared to the total cost of running the railway, it would be tiny? Presumably you'd be talking about having staff away on training for a week or two per year. Something like a 2%-4% increase in the number of station staff needed so you cover that, plus the cost of a couple of instructors. Seems worthwhile to me.
 

bramling

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5 Mar 2012
Messages
20,457
Location
Hertfordshire / Teesdale
Over how wide an area did power have to be cut when the first person detrained? Was it only cut in the area that person was plausibly likely to be in, or did the limitations of the equipment force power to be cut over a much wider area? If so, is that a possible area for improvements to the power supply equipment?

There is a substation immediately adjacent to the location where one of the trains was stuck. I'm not familiar with the exact current rail layout, however it's an extremely complicated area with adjacent substations being at South Bermondsey, Hither Green, Nunhead, Catford and Blackheath, plus TP huts at New Cross and Ladywell. Whilst in the right circumstances this may offer options, it also means that a wider area is always going to be affected if the trains are in the wrong place -- and remember that with people self-evacuating those making the decisions will rightly have assumed the worst-case scenario.

  • As other people have pointed out, not having station staff trained to go on the track and to assist in evacuating trains seems a pretty big oversight. I know there's some cost to doing so, but surely, compared to the total cost of running the railway, it would be tiny? Presumably you'd be talking about having staff away on training for a week or two per year. Something like a 2%-4% increase in the number of station staff needed so you cover that, plus the cost of a couple of instructors. Seems worthwhile to me.

I'd say the bigger issue is that you are now having to take on a certain standard of staff - in other words people who are competent to handle a potentially highly safety-critical situation. So more stringent selection (both aptitude and medically) plus ongoing management and assurance of both these factors. Not to mention the fact you probably need to now pay more to reflect the extra level of responsibility.

As I posted elsewhere, there's no right or wrong answer to this - it's a case of whether one individually feels it's a price worth paying. Personally I'd say as things are right now it's probably not worth the expense, although I'd probably still try and make a case for it by trying to get the maximum value out of the investment -- well trained operationally expert staff do have their uses, not least they're often better at providing good information and service to passengers during disruptions.
 

rebmcr

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Joined
15 Nov 2011
Messages
4,005
Location
St Neots
Trains that you can't walk through the whole train potentially make evacuation very hard. Perhaps future guidelines should be that new EMUs and DMUs that are intended to be connected together should always be built with a through passageway through to the end of the unit (On this note: how would you evacuate a class 465 if it was stuck in a tunnel?)

465s don't operate through long single-bore tunnels, so normally a unit could be brought alongside.

There is a reasonable case for having emergency access on the front of all units, even if full gangways are inappropriate. Such a facility would not even need to be centred, it could go on the secondman's side, so as not to affect driver comfort unnecessarily.
 

amcluesent

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I have a suspicion the comms that night between London Fire Brigade and Southeastern 'Gold' command would make a sailor blush
 

Signal Head

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The answer is blindly obvious. I soil myself. Did you think I would egress ?

Fair enough. You have answered honestly, thank you. I suspect you are in a minority. I've never found myself in the particular situation. I was stuck for a couple of hours on the WCML some months back by one of the depressingly regular Milton-area suicides, but stuck on a Pendo with full facilities is a world away from what happened to these unfortunate passengers.

If you had answered my original question in that manner you'd have saved both of us some time
 

Elecman

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Rail management comment in the media continues to show they have just missed the point. They carry on wittering like a broken record about the dangers of being on the tracks, where if I am not mistaken nobody has ever come to any harm during a self-evacuation after a gross dela.

A good reason for the no harm happening being that an Emergency Switch off of the Live 3Rd Rail is actioned immediately the Self evacuation is reported by the driver. However I’m sure there have been plenty of trespassers come to harm on the Live 3rd Rail. 750 volts dc does not take prisoners
 

Antman

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A good reason for the no harm happening being that an Emergency Switch off of the Live 3Rd Rail is actioned immediately the Self evacuation is reported by the driver. However I’m sure there have been plenty of trespassers come to harm on the Live 3rd Rail. 750 volts dc does not take prisoners

I suspect passengers would have the sense to get off on the opposite side to the live rail?
 

tsr

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I suspect passengers would have the sense to get off on the opposite side to the live rail?

The position of the third rail changes regularly, and is almost impossible to see from directly above (without deliberately looking quite closely) - ie. the position you'd be in if you were on the door ledge of a door which has just had its egress handles pulled.

Even if you could see where it is, the opposite side is likely to have other hazards. It might be an adjacent track which also has a third rail, or it might be a bridge parapet, or loose cables - you name it!

Few passengers nowadays seem to understand just exactly how lethal the third rail is, anyway.
 

6Gman

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That was pretty much my thought too. I doubt SouthEastern could have done anything differently up to the point at which the first passenger got off the train. But with hindsight (and I know things are always easy with hindsight) perhaps it would have been more sensible, once that passenger was off, the power was cut and multiple trains were therefore now stuck with no power or heating, for someone to realize that in this situation trains would become very dark and very cold, and it was inevitable that more passengers would start de-training (I hate that word) before too long,. Therefore the least bad thing to do would now be to just get everyone off all the stranded trains as soon as possible, so that they wouldn't then be continually delaying the eventual restoration of power.

The eye witness quoted earlier in the thread makes the point that detraining was difficult and required the assistance of fire service staff. He also comments that the journey to the platform was longer and more difficult than he'd anticipated. (He also describes himself as a healthy 38 year old)

Now consider trying to evacuate maybe six or eight stranded trains, some of them significantly further away from access points.

Then factor in all those people unable to evacuate.

There are no easy answers, but I suspect self-evacuation is very, very rarely a sensible option.
 

Antman

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It's dark, it's snowing and you're three feet above the track. Are you sure that you'd be able to tell?

I wasn't there, no point in speculating, but nobody came to any harm.
 

4-SUB 4732

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7 Jan 2018
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BBC News reporting that customers on the trains where they egressed out can claim £100 in compensation.

Can't frigging believe they would have a £100 'bonus' that crooks who egressed out can claim but maybe it's just me!
 

Leo1961

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13 Sep 2013
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BBC News reporting that customers on the trains where they egressed out can claim £100 in compensation.

Can't frigging believe they would have a £100 'bonus' that crooks who egressed out can claim but maybe it's just me!

<CYNIC MODE>
By claiming the £100 compensation you are going to have to provide information that may enable the authorities to identify the first person to egress...
</CYNIC MODE>
 

Antman

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No, I just have experience in walking on the track in third-rail areas in the dark and in the snow. And in the driving rain. And in the fog.

Shows how bad their predicament must have been for so many (presumably?) sensible and level headed people to have taken that course of action.
 

LAX54

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The eye witness quoted earlier in the thread makes the point that detraining was difficult and required the assistance of fire service staff. He also comments that the journey to the platform was longer and more difficult than he'd anticipated. (He also describes himself as a healthy 38 year old)

Now consider trying to evacuate maybe six or eight stranded trains, some of them significantly further away from access points.

Then factor in all those people unable to evacuate.

There are no easy answers, but I suspect self-evacuation is very, very rarely a sensible option.

That is what many cannot seem to grasp, its not a 5 minute job, it does take time, once that one person had left after just 30 mins, it was always going to be a long job, and even if the tarin could have moved, which it may well have done shortly after, that was shot down at that point
 
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