Passenger Obligation To Buy A Ticket

[radamfi]

But you wouldn't be able to get to the ticket office because you would be inside the barriers while the ticket office was outside.

If you are prevented from exiting the station because of barriers then you will have someone selling tickets at the barrier, or be told to go to the ticket office outside the barriers.
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although the ruling says reasonable intent, queueing for 2 hrs shows reasonable intent?

Certainly, for boarding a train there is no maximum waiting time for tickets, according to SWT at least. Their barriers won't let you onto the station without a ticket. By the sounds of it, there is no distinction between queueing before or after the trip.

 

[richw]

Certainly, for boarding a train there is no maximum waiting time for tickets, according to SWT at least. Their barriers won't let you onto the station without a ticket. By the sounds of it, there is no distinction between queueing before or after the trip.

Although from reading on here at some point in tehe past i'm sure i've read a maximum acceptable queue time, published by a governing body or someone. May of even been the NRCoC

 

[district]

Fare evaders absolutley disgust me. It is common sense that you pay for the service that you will use. I don't think there can be any other interpretation of that. It's just stealing.

 

[radamfi]

Although from reading on here at some point in tehe past i'm sure i've read a maximum acceptable queue time, published by a governing body or someone. May of even been the NRCoC

There may be a 'target' or 'recommended' maximum waiting time but that still does not mean you are allowed to jump the barrier because the queue was too long.

 

[bb21]

This situation has never happened to me personally, but before I joined the forum, I would have never expected to have to buy a ticket at the ticket office of my destination station if I had no opportunity to do so beforehand, for fear of prosecution. I would never intentionally fare evade, but I bet if a survey of rail travellers was done, a relatively large percentage wouldn't know of this requirement.

I totally agree. We can argue all day long however it does not change the fact that it is poorly published the fact that one has to pay at the destination if there had been no opportunity to pay beforehand.

Ask any random 100 railway users and I'm sure you'll be surprised at the result.

Similar situation with Birmingham New Street - there seems to be no ticket office inside the gateline in the plan, but there is a 'Rail Information' point next to the barriers and on the inside. I don't know if it sells tickets though.

Anyway, what should one do if one reached either Shrewsbury or Birmingham New Street without a ticket?

Nothing but direct (even escort) you to the ticket office as the information point inside the barrier does not sell tickets and nor do gateline staff.

 

[b0b]

There should be signs at destination stations with open ticket offices to remind people. This is grossly unfair.

A simple

"Have you paid your fare yet?"
"if not, you must pay for your journey at the ticket window before leaving the station"

would go a long way to separate the unintentional forgetfulness vs the chancer.

 

[richw]

There may be a 'target' or 'recommended' maximum waiting time but that still does not mean you are allowed to jump the barrier because the queue was too long.

Why should someone be late for work or an appointment because they miss trains because the ticket queue takes unreasonable lengths of time. This will only force people off the rail travel. If they're at a station for more than a reasonable time before there service to buy a ticket, if they arrive late then its there fault, but if they arrive 30 mins early?

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Why should someone be late for work or an appointment because they miss trains because the ticket queue takes unreasonable lengths of time.

The offence of travelling "without having previously paid his fare, and with intent to avoid payment thereof" is claimed against passengers who don't pay when there is an opportunity even if they offer to pay later when challenged. Its the "intent to avoid" that applies to people who leave the train then make for the exit. It could not be applied to someone who stands in a queue for 5 or 10 minutes, even if they then give up and abandon queue.

There should be signs at destination stations with open ticket offices to remind people. This is grossly unfair.

A simple

"Have you paid your fare yet?"
"if not, you must pay for your journey at the ticket window before leaving the station"

would go a long way to separate the unintentional forgetfulness vs the chancer.

I strongly agree.

 

[Olympian]

Is it not possible for staff to identify people walking from the platform straight to the exit and stopping them to ask if they have a ticket?

I'll be honest, it sounds rather inefficient to me, but not impossible to catch people out.

I believe that's sort of how they do it, but possibly based on appearing to avoid G4S/barriers where this is possible.

I've not experienced it at Piccadilly, where you could easily exit from any platform except 13/14 and miss G4S altogether by using the steps up to the overbridge at the south end, but did once get followed at Manchester Victoria as on arrival by train into platform 4 or 5 I used the steps up from the main overbridge to use the cash machine opposite McDonalds and then down the second set of stairs that avoid G4S altogether. Was just about to leave the premises through one of the exits after the ticket office and was stopped by plain clothes inspector and asked to produce a ticket. I had a valid ticket of course, but my route between platform and station exit was apparently suspicious enough for him to want to follow me...

Interestingly I've also deliberately approached, and been let through, the G4S barrier at Victoria without a ticket and genuinely without having arrived by train by going to the cash machine outside McDonalds on arrival by foot at the station and then going down the steps onto the overbridge and merely following the "Way Out" signs. I could quite easily have come from the car park instead and still not have travelled. It's a bizarre layout.

 

[CHESHIRECAT]

This point about having to find the conductor; especially on quiet evening trains ; is valid... Conductors know (or should know) what stations dont have ticket offices that are open if indeed they exist so maybe make an announcemnet to the effect that 'I am in the back of the train for your ticket to purchased' if they don't (undertsandably) have time to come through the train at all times

 

[richw]

perhaps a service like Ringgo in the car parks, where each station has a code, If booking office is busy, You can phone up the number, enter your start location code, your end location code, and then options for different ticket types. They then sms you a ticket. a convenience fee would be payable.
so an example of how this could work say i'm travelling from Bristol to London paddington
A board on each station detail station codes (a station code is 4 digits).
Bristol t-m code for this example is 1234
Paddington is 5678

Ring the dedicated number
Enter origin code (1234)
Enter destination code (5678)
select option number for single/ return etc.
Enter payment card details
Service sms details of journey and last 4 digits of payment card. both to be presented when requested by ticket inspector.

If it is cost effective for car parks to do this for £1-£2 tickets then surely a similar suitable alternative can be created for rail travel with much bigger ticket prices.

 

[rmt-driver]

This point about having to find the conductor; especially on quiet evening trains ; is valid... Conductors know (or should know) what stations dont have ticket offices that are open if indeed they exist so maybe make an announcemnet to the effect that 'I am in the back of the train for your ticket to purchased' if they don't (undertsandably) have time to come through the train at all times

Well now I've heard it all. "passenger announcement , I am very sorry that northern rail doesnt provide basic facilities like ticket machines at it's stations (or even departure screens on many, but that's another thread), and realise you have had no chance to buy a ticket, through no fault of your own. It is very late at night but you are required to walk through the train to find me at the back sat down. If you actually make it here without being bounced throu the window as we go over a set of points on our pacer, I will sell you a ticket. We wish you a pleasant journey on this Northern train"

 

[CHESHIRECAT]

If they are sat down they have time to come through the train!!.. (assuming they have finished the Times Crossword )

 

[WestCoast]

Well now I've heard it all. "passenger announcement , I am very sorry that northern rail doesnt provide basic facilities like ticket machines at it's stations (or even departure screens on many, but that's another thread), and realise you have had no chance to buy a ticket, through no fault of your own. It is very late at night but you are required to walk through the train to find me at the back sat down. If you actually make it here without being bounced throu the window as we go over a set of points on our pacer, I will sell you a ticket. We wish you a pleasant journey on this Northern train"

Yes, the "Northern experience" can be a little, how should I put it, basic. Pacer commuters are told to put up and shut up, because the DfT says "there is nothing else" and London Midland needs to replace their terrible 150s first blah blah blah. That's for another thread and I am glad another member of staff from a different TOC has noted this. Basically, some stations should have a TVM (at least), but they just don't. We could go on naming stations such as this all day long.

Seriously, on my local line if the (fictional) requirement to find the guard was enforced, there would be a conga line forming to the back cab with a very frustrated member of staff! Not sensible in the slightest.

If you want to see Northern's ticketing inadequacies in full take a trip on the Hadfield Line, and I will reiterate to be clear, it's not the fault of the staff at all! They do a very good job.

The whole "walking past the ticket office" at Piccadilly is farcical. Yes, I know why they do it, but that doesn't mean I agree with it. It's not an obvious course of action for 99% of "normals" to make a detour to the "travel centre" and then queue up for 15 minutes. It's not like an excess fare window, and it doesn't promote itself in this way at all to arriving passengers.

 

[nedchester]

Are you suggesting Northern (and other companies) are encouraging people to walk past an open ticket office so they can catch them failing to pay for a ticket?

Yes I am.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There is no reason why an Inspector cannot seek to interview a passenger beyond the platform - or even beyond the station perimiter. However, they do not have the authority to compell the person to answer any questions nor to detain them. An interview conducted under PACE should include the explanation that the person is not obliged to answer any questions and in fact, that remark does permit the person to simply walk away; of course many people will think (rightly perhaps) that their refusal will be interpreted as indicating guilt whether they have anything to feel guilty about or not!

In such circumstances the passenger is free to walk away, and if they have not even reached the point of indentifying themselves then there can be little chance of any consequences. A well trained Inspector may stand in such a manner to give the impression of physically blocking the person's departure but it should only be an impression.

Any Inspector or other Officer attempting to detain a passenger by way of an Any Person Arrest (f.k.a. a Citizens' Arrest) or any other physical restraint would be taking quite a risk.

Most interesting and suspect those wise to this would just 'do a runner'?

 

[globetrotter]

The underlying reason (in the end, threatening passengers with the possibility of a court case leading to a criminal record) is profit. The ideal situation for TOCs would be to eliminate all ticket purchasing facilities except at major stations or online, threatening passengers that if they don't buy a ticket and get caught leaving their destination without a ticket they will face a court case. At a stroke the TOCs reduce costs and instill fear.

What would be possible is where ticket machines at the arrival station exist, to program them to accept ticket purchases from incoming passengers so that they could buy the ticket of their choice as they would have been able to do had there been a ticket machine at the departure station. Then there would be no argument as to whether one had an opportunity to pay or not. If they don't want to do that, every station could have a ticket machine that accepts cash or credit cards but ... that might cost them too much.

At the end of the day, it's all about profit isn't it? Does anyone really think that the TOCs really care about getting cars off the road? They are driven by one thing, for that is the purpose of any private company - to maximise returns for their shareholders. Any CEO who fails to do that will soon be gone.

 

[mailbyrail]

This thread confirms to me why I avoid paying the rail fare at every possible opportunity - I go by car.
In the cases where I do resort to the train, I buy a ticket.
The assumption everyone is a criminal, the impossible minefield of ticket restrictions, the frequent failure of rail companies to provide the most basic of services to allow passengers to purchase tickets not to mention the actual cost of a walk on ticket all make the idea of a painful car journey seem more attractive than what at first seemed like a pleasant train ride.

 

[snail]

Fare evaders absolutley disgust me. It is common sense that you pay for the service that you will use. I don't think there can be any other interpretation of that. It's just stealing.

That seems to be the consensus here (which is not surprising), but some stations don't make it easy to pay on arrival, or make it clear that you should pay on arrival if that is possible.

That last point is important as most TOC posters say you shouldn't travel without a ticket. Many people will perceive their journey ending when they step off the train or platform. If they physically can't get that ticket before or during the point of 'arrival' then I suspect most would simply not bother.

 

[WestCoast]

Fare evaders absolutley disgust me. It is common sense that you pay for the service that you will use. I don't think there can be any other interpretation of that. It's just stealing.

What if you can't pay before you use the service (or even during)? Northern-land isn't like the commuter TOCs of SE England, there are often no offices or TVMs, even at busier stations. PERTIS doesn't exist.

It's not always clear-cut. Guards can't always cope with collection of fares, they do try their best, but a rammed commuter train isn't the easiest to get through!

Plus the infamous G4S (sub-contracted on-station RPIs in NW England) are often clueless, no checks if G4S aren't there.

Is it common sense to make a detour to an office (out of the way) upon arrival? No auto-barriers at Piccadilly.

At least it is relatively easy to buy tickets at the TVMs on most FCC stations. Northern think it is OK to delay honest passengers for a long time at the end of the journey because they don't have TVMs.

They most certainly do, something which some people don't seem to be grasping here. If you haven't experienced problems buying a ticket because you have a TOC where virtually every station has some form of ticket facilities, think yourself somewhat lucky in some ways.

 

[Old Timer]

There is no reason why an Inspector cannot seek to interview a passenger beyond the platform - or even beyond the station perimiter. However, they do not have the authority to compell the person to answer any questions nor to detain them. An interview conducted under PACE should include the explanation that the person is not obliged to answer any questions and in fact, that remark does permit the person to simply walk away; of course many people will think (rightly perhaps) that their refusal will be interpreted as indicating guilt whether they have anything to feel guilty about or not!

In such circumstances the passenger is free to walk away, and if they have not even reached the point of indentifying themselves then there can be little chance of any consequences. A well trained Inspector may stand in such a manner to give the impression of physically blocking the person's departure but it should only be an impression.

Any Inspector or other Officer attempting to detain a passenger by way of an Any Person Arrest (f.k.a. a Citizens' Arrest) or any other physical restraint would be taking quite a risk.

Dave.

With respect I really do wish you would not continue to act as some sort of surrogate legal adviser, as on a number of occasoions in the past your "advice" has been wrong.

What you have stated is quite incorrect.

The power still exists under section 5 of the 1889 Regulation of Railways Act to detain a person suspected of fare evasion. This is reinforced by PACE by virtue of a power of arrest.


Just one further point.

The legal system of the UK is based upon every person acquainting themselves with an understanding of the relevant Legislation. There is no defence in UK law that a person was not aware of the applicable Law.

In the case of railway travel, the passenger is assumed under this general convention to have made themselves fully aware of the relevant Legislation as well as any specific requirements of the Railway, such as the Railway Byelaws, National Conditions of Carriage.

Reference to these quite clearly requires the passenger to hold a valid ticket before commencing their journey or to pay the correct fare for the journey undertaken.

Talk of "entrapment", "trapping" and all these other silly and emotional arguments represent personal views and opinions which are not supported by Law.

Until and unless the Law is changed, it will always be the case that a person is required to make themselves aware of the elements of Law that apply to anything they are engaged upon. No end of opinion or disagreement will alter that.


MODS
I have previously asked that we have a "sticky" which addresses the sorts of issues that are being debated here (yet again) at great length. It seems silly to me that we hear the same old personal viewpoints propounded as fact, and end up with the same arguments and disputes. There is nothing NEW here, simply the continuing replay of the same old argument a bit like a record playing over and over.

 

[WestCoast]

Are G4S allowed to enforce PACE???

I know this thread spawned out of the Manchester discussion, hence why I ask.

 

[northwichcat]

If you haven't experienced problems buying a ticket because you have a TOC where virtually every station has some form of ticket facilities, think yourself somewhat lucky in some ways.

In fairness there aren't many unstaffed Northern managed stations in Merseyside. Just a shame most of the stations they manage outside of Merseyside are either unstaffed or under staffed.

 

[GB]

Originally Posted by hairyhandedfool

Are you suggesting Northern (and other companies) are encouraging people to walk past an open ticket office so they can catch them failing to pay for a ticket?

Yes I am.

Edit: how are NR "encouraging" fare evasion?

Its no different to the retail sector where security staff (or police) wait outside the shop for suspected shoplifters to exit to ensure a concrete case for prosecution (if needed)

 

[DaveNewcastle]

What you have stated is quite incorrect.

The power still exists under section 5 of the 1889 Regulation of Railways Act to detain a person suspected of fare evasion. This is reinforced by PACE by virtue of a power of arrest.

Thank you. I am, of course, aware of that provision.
On the face of it, the Act specifically appears to lead to dentention of a passenger without a ticket. I also understand this has happened on several instances. However, experience has led to grave doubts about the application of Powers of Arrest by Security Guards and others following counter claims ; I will stand by my brief summary that anyone doing so "would be taking quite a risk".
Whilst not a point of law, I understand that some, perhaps all, TOCs advise Officers NOT to detain passengers but to leave that responsibility to BTP.
The upshot is that Station staff and their Security Guards will not detain a passenger in anything other than exceptional circumstances.

on a number of occasoions in the past your "advice" has been wrong.

I regret that if it has been the case - I will always be pleased to be corrected!

 

[WestCoast]

In fairness there aren't many unstaffed Northern managed stations in Merseyside. Just a shame most of the stations they manage outside of Merseyside are either unstaffed or under staffed.

That is down to Merseytravel's robust policy on providing ticket offices.

 

[northwichcat]

Edit: how are NR "encouraging" fare evasion?

Its no different to the retail sector where security staff (or police) wait outside the shop for suspected shoplifters to exit to ensure a concrete case for prosecution (if needed)

I don't agree. It's more like you buy a pint of milk from the milkman every day - one day he leaves you two by mistake but you don't return the extra one or pay for it.

The people we're talking about are not the ones that walk past an open ticket office at the start of their journey and do everything they can to avoid the conductor on board. We're talking about people who aren't given an opportunity to buy a ticket until they reach their destination and even then it's not 100% clear to the average passenger that they can go to the ticket office/travel centre and pay there.

 

[radamfi]

Edit: how are NR "encouraging" fare evasion?

Its no different to the retail sector where security staff (or police) wait outside the shop for suspected shoplifters to exit to ensure a concrete case for prosecution (if needed)

It is different because you can leave the goods in the shop if the queue is too long whereas you have already taken the train when you arrive so you are effectively imprisoned at the ticket office window if you want to avoid the nightmare situation that the OP in the original thread now faces.

Arguably it is worse than a long queue before a journey as at least you can abort the trip at that point without fear of prosecution. I'm going to think twice now about travelling from an unstaffed station to a staffed station in future. Luckily nearly all my trips are to and from staffed stations with TVMs.

 

[route:oxford]

" If you have not been able to purchase a ticket at your departure station or on the train, you may (must?) purchase one at your destination where possible"

Exactly.

Destination, perhaps being my office?

Sit down, log onto a suitable website and buy the return ticket (which will probably cost 10p more than a single) and collect at the station for the return journey. Discarding the outbound ticket.

Out of interest...

Would the revenue protection staff be permitted to physically stop you from buying a suitable ticket on your web-enabled mobile or 'pad whilst talking to you?

 

[Flamingo]

Asking people to queue for 10 minutes after travel is very likely to make some people think twice about taking the train next time, which is what we are all trying to avoid.

If they are not paying for their journey, can you please explain why they should be encouraged to take the train? They are just contributing to overcrowding, and using up oxygen that someone else has paid for.

Reading this thread, I think that a majority of posters are missing the point.

Firstly, how many people don't know they have to pay for a train ticket when travelling by train? Damn few, if any.

Secondly, in no other area of retail is "the queues were too long" accepted as an excuse for not paying. Not shops, not cinemas, not theatres. Why do so many posters seem to think that it should be acceptable on the railways?

I'm not talking about broken ticket machines, or unmanned stations here, but the large number of people who travel from main stations with facilities available. And if arriving into a station with facilities for buying a ticket, well then there is both a moral and legal obligation to purchase a ticket (see my first question). Saying "I didn't know where to buy it from" is just an excuse, nothing more.

 

[Old Timer]

...On the face of it, the Act specifically appears to lead to dentention of a passenger without a ticket. I also understand this has happened on several instances.....

Yes the Act DOES lead to the ability to detain. The Law considers the actions of a reasonable person. These are taken to be that a reasonable person will either produce a valid ticket for the journey being undertaken or pay the correct fare for the journey being undertaken. The Law allows for the person concerned to provide their name and address so as to allow the Railway to recover the fare involved.

It is considered unreeasonable for a person NOT to act in the above manner, or to attempt to abscond, hence the ability of the RPI to detain.

The power to detain was widened to include any offence under Labour's many tinkerings with the Law so as to criminalise most of the population. ANYONE may now detain a person who has committed an offence, or whom the have reasonable grounds to suspect is or has committed an offence. The force used for detention must be reasonable given all the facts and you can expect this to be watered down in due following a number of frankly ridiculous Prosecutions for people attempting to do their public duty.

...However, experience has led to grave doubts about the application of Powers of Arrest by Security Guards and others following counter claims ; I will stand by my brief summary that anyone doing so "would be taking quite a risk".

Security guards make arrests hundreds, maybe thousands, of times a week. Very very few cases have occurred where the Security Guards has been Prosecuted. Were that to be the case then the whole system of justice would start to collapse around us. You can see cases where security guards have "piled in" on the various Police fly on the wall series. None broadcast have ever suggested any Prosecution of the security guards concerned.

...Whilst not a point of law, I understand that some, perhaps all, TOCs advise Officers NOT to detain passengers but to leave that responsibility to BTP.
I regret that if it has been the case - I will always be pleased to be corrected!

I am unable to comment on idividual TOC policy. The arrangements set out in S5 of the 1889 Act are quite clear and confer the power, as does PACE. Remember that the simply act of stopping someone constitutes a "detention" in Law, as there is a common law right of passage on the Queens Highway, and a common law freedom for any person to pass unhindered unless legally detained - The reason the power exists in the 1889 Act.

Prior to recent reforms, arrest could only be undertaken with a Warrant unless arrest without a Warrant was specifically authorised in the Legislation applicable to the offence.