Passenger Obligation To Buy A Ticket

[yorkie]

My complaint isn't about Northern's staff, on the whole you're a great professional team IMHO and I've always been impressed, its about the management's policies on ticketing, which IMO aren't up to a good standard.

I would agree with this. I can't think of many occasions where I have encountered Northern staff I am unhappy with.

Personally I wish they would take revenue protection inhouse as G4 can do a terrible job alot of the time and are poorly trained and the policies that the Higher bosses implement can be a nightmare for us lot, thats why our local management tend to let us use our common sense

Again, I would agree with this. I have concerns about G4S too.

I suspect - though we do not know - the OP encountered G4S staff.

We were always told in training that "technically" it is up to the passenger to find the guard however I cannot find it in the Conditions of Carriage so it may have been one of those many railway myths that seem to get passed down to us Traincrew, so if I am wrong I apologise however I have heard it from a few bosses as well.

No problem ; not your fault as that's what you have been told, and you should be able to rely on instructions being correct and not myths.

There are, however certain circumstances when I would recommend seeking traincrew, but I don't want to complicate this topic.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Isn't that open to interpretation though?

Say, the train was due to arrive at 11:30 but arrives at 11:45 and you need to be somewhere 15 minutes walk from the station at 12:00. You could claim it isn't practical to queue for 5-10 minutes at Piccadilly when you are already late....

Maybe.

....If you did Mobberley-Delamere (both unstaffed) and weren't given the opportunity to buy on board where are you supposed to send your fare to? Northern don't publicise an address to put uncollected fares to, or have a secure online payment system for collecting such fares.

But they do have an online system for buying tickets.

Sorry but why are Northern (and other companies) deliberately putting RPIs after the ticket office rather than before? It seems to me they WANT to trap people? It's just as easy to have them gripping before the ticket office instead of after.

Are you suggesting Northern (and other companies) are encouraging people to walk past an open ticket office so they can catch them failing to pay for a ticket?

If people actually bought tickets at the first reasonable opportunity (or even before that), Northern wouldn't be "trapping" anyone, would they?

Are you one of the people that think speed cameras are only there to make money from "law abiding citizens"?

 

[Deerfold]

Maybe.



But they do have an online system for buying tickets.

You weren't asking me but I'll answer anyway.

They do, but very few places you can collect from.

Are you suggesting Northern (and other companies) are encouraging people to walk past an open ticket office so they can catch them failing to pay for a ticket?

I'd say yes. Making them, no. Encouraging them to, yes (At the destination station where there wasn't one at the departure station).


I'd guess a lot of people whould just say "well, I'll boy one on the way back, it's only 10p difference anyway".

If people actually bought tickets at the first reasonable opportunity (or even before that), Northern wouldn't be "trapping" anyone, would they?

Are you one of the people that think speed cameras are only there to make money from "law abiding citizens"?

I don't think that - I think most are fair. Motorists must be daft as well as breaking the law to get caught by most of them. There's a minority in areas where the speed limit is not obvious (speed signs half hidden by hedges, no reminders) - those are not fair.

 

[rmt-driver]

We were always told in training that "technically" it is up to the passenger to find the guard however I cannot find it in the Conditions of Carriage so it may have been one of those many railway myths that seem to get passed down to us Traincrew, so if I am wrong I apologise however I have heard it from a few bosses as well.

I think this is completely unworkable and basically crazy to expect passengers to find the guard to purchase a ticket, when unable to do so at the station (through of course no fault of the passenger.)

As already has been mentioned what if the guard is in the back cab, or guards booth thing/ trainoffice and refuses to leave? Bang on the door until he comes out? Pull the alarm?

Also most passengers will not know if they are on a DOO train.. They will spend a LONG time looking for a guard there...

Or what if the train is formed of 2 or 3 units, without connecting gangways? When they get to a station are the expected to quickly run from one unit along the platform and get in the next, in order to continue their search for the guard ?

 

[mallard]

But they do have an online system for buying tickets.

So you're saying that everybody who intends to travel from an unstaffed station to another unstaffed station should plan their travel several days in advance so that the tickets can be posted to them, in case the conductor doesn't collect the fare en-route? I don't think that's at all reasonable.

Are you suggesting Northern (and other companies) are encouraging people to walk past an open ticket office so they can catch them failing to pay for a ticket?

I don't think anybody's saying that. I think what's being said is that the facilities for buying tickets are terrible, but because people are legally obliged to use them, there is no incentive to improve. So people are stuck with the choice between queuing for an unreasonable amount of time or risk prosecution.

If people actually bought tickets at the first reasonable opportunity (or even before that), Northern wouldn't be "trapping" anyone, would they?

It's not reasonable to expect anyone to buy tickets in advance. I don't think it's reasonable to expect people to queue for upwards of 20 minutes either.

Are you one of the people that think speed cameras are only there to make money from "law abiding citizens"?

That's an awful analogy. If you make it difficult for people to obey the law, then, surprise, surprise, people won't. That doesn't make them right, but it does mean that they should not be held to the same degree of responsibility as someone who deliberately flouts the law.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

I think this is completely unworkable and basically crazy to expect passengers to find the guard to purchase a ticket, when unable to do so at the station (through of course no fault of the passenger.)

As already has been mentioned what if the guard is in the back cab, or guards booth thing/ trainoffice and refuses to leave? Bang on the door until he comes out? Pull the alarm?

Also most passengers will not know if they are on a DOO train.. They will spend a LONG time looking for a guard there...

Or what if the train is formed of 2 or 3 units, without connecting gangways? When they get to a station are the expected to quickly run from one unit along the platform and get in the next, in order to continue their search for the guard ?

Even new guards are still taught this from what I can gather on a previous post I did mention tho that it had never been enforced (and the less said about DOO the better) lol

 

[WelshBluebird]

I think this is completely unworkable and basically crazy to expect passengers to find the guard to purchase a ticket, when unable to do so at the station (through of course no fault of the passenger.)

As already has been mentioned what if the guard is in the back cab, or guards booth thing/ trainoffice and refuses to leave? Bang on the door until he comes out? Pull the alarm?

Also most passengers will not know if they are on a DOO train.. They will spend a LONG time looking for a guard there...

Or what if the train is formed of 2 or 3 units, without connecting gangways? When they get to a station are the expected to quickly run from one unit along the platform and get in the next, in order to continue their search for the guard ?

Or even simpler, what about lines where nearly all the stations are unstaffed? Take the valley lines, if every passenger tried to find the guard it would be total chaos as nearly all the stations do not have any ticket buying facilities.

 

[WelshBluebird]

But they do have an online system for buying tickets.

And what if you don't plan your journey in advance?

 

[CarterUSM]

I find that many passengers , especially up my way, tend to seek me out for tickets, information, complaints or whatever they require if I am not in their immediate vicinity. I wouldn't consider it their obligation to do so as such, but it can certainly make things easier for them with regards to various matters.

 

[radamfi]

And what if you don't plan your journey in advance?

Perhaps you are supposed to buy a ticket online for a journey you have already undertaken.

 

[snail]

Are you suggesting Northern (and other companies) are encouraging people to walk past an open ticket office so they can catch them failing to pay for a ticket?

If people actually bought tickets at the first reasonable opportunity (or even before that), Northern wouldn't be "trapping" anyone, would they?

I would say in the case of Manchester Piccadilly, putting RPIs on the station exit can only be to catch people that walk past the ticket office. I would also say that the travel centre at Piccadilly is not a reasonable opportunity to buy a ticket on arrival, that should be provided at the platform exit doors.

 

[northwichcat]

In such circumstances. if you bought a ticket and then submitted a compensation claim for delays to your journey, I wonder what the response would be?!

You need to be delayed for an hour or more on Northern before you get compensation.

But they do have an online system for buying tickets.

Which doesn't sell tickets for some journeys which could be undertaken with Northern, as mentioned in the thread on this. The online system also doesn't allow you to buy tickets for journeys in the past for obvious reasons and for journeys in the future it needs to be at least one week in advance of the travel date, unless you can collect from a machine.

If people actually bought tickets at the first reasonable opportunity (or even before that), Northern wouldn't be "trapping" anyone, would they?

This thread originated from another thread where a passenger travelling from Gatley couldn't buy a ticket in the afternoon because Northern close the ticket office at lunchtime!

 

[ANorthernGuard]

I do not believe in the slightest that they have people at the exit doors at piccadilly for quite a few reasons, one of them is its has plenty of shops that people use without using the trains

There are multiple exits

People use the metrolink as well as the trains

barriers are only ever at the end of the platforms or the overbridge or at the entrance/exit to p13/14

Network Rail would not allow that on the concourse

It just makes no sense whatsoever

I have worked there for a decade and have never seen it and to be honest if it was happening im pretty sure I would have seen it

 

[Greenback]

I think that it's far cheaper for the TOC not to have ticket buying facilities on most stations and rely on the guard getting round the train. Where this doesn't happen for whatever reason, it's then cheaper to put RPI's at the exits and prosecute travellers who have been unable to locate the ticket office, or who do not have the time to join the queue there.

That said, I have never seen any at Manchester Piccadilly exits, only at the platforms and the bridge. I wouldn;t be surprised if it was done occasionally though, although it does raise questions about those who might enter the station without travelling.

 

[Roylang]

If the RPIs are not at the exits, how can they be certain that you are trying to leave without paying? You could still be wandering about trying to find somewhere to buy a ticket, especially at a station you are not familiar with.

To me it is no different to shoplifting where, as far as I am aware, you cannot be prosecuted until you leave the shop, therefore, demonstrating that you do not have an intention to pay. Until then you can put goods in your pockets, under your hat etc. you have not committed an offence by doing so as long as you then pay for them.

Roy

 

[ANorthernGuard]

If the RPIs are not at the exits, how can they be certain that you are trying to leave without paying? You could still be wandering about trying to find somewhere to buy a ticket, especially at a station you are not familiar with.

To me it is no different to shoplifting where, as far as I am aware, you cannot be prosecuted until you leave the shop, therefore, demonstrating that you do not have an intention to pay. Until then you can put goods in your pockets, under your hat etc. you have not committed an offence by doing so as long as you then pay for them.

Roy

but what about all the people eho use piccadilly to shop eat and drink (there are alot)

G4 work exits from platforms only NOT exits from the station itself

 

[Darandio]

G4 work exits from platforms only NOT exits from the station itself

Surely not true? There have been threads on here that say otherwise. Not sure anyone can remember a one from a while back (wasn't it Manchester as well?) where someone was actually stopped outside the station, questioning the legality of whether they could actually be stopped somewhere that potentially was not property of the railway.

 

[Roylang]

but what about all the people eho use piccadilly to shop eat and drink (there are alot)

G4 work exits from platforms only NOT exits from the station itself

But does that not mean there must be a location at which you can buy a ticket on every platform / set of platforms? Other threads have suggested that there is only one.

Please note - I do not know the station in question at all and have only looked at the map http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/stations/sjp/MAN/plan.html?rtnloc=MAN

Roy

 

[hairyhandedfool]

So you're saying that everybody who intends to travel from an unstaffed station to another unstaffed station should plan their travel several days in advance so that the tickets can be posted to them, in case the conductor doesn't collect the fare en-route? I don't think that's at all reasonable....

Not at all, just making a point that if a passenger has to buy a ticket, there is a facility to do so. If you read the quoted text I'm sure my point would make sense in that respect.

....I don't think anybody's saying that. I think what's being said is that the facilities for buying tickets are terrible, but because people are legally obliged to use them, there is no incentive to improve. So people are stuck with the choice between queuing for an unreasonable amount of time or risk prosecution....

I think some people are saying that to fair, although you specifically might not think it. I know Piccadilly can be a pain to buy tickets from, but if you went there were in he queue for a not unreasonable amount of time hen left without paying, I think you'd be on a much better footing to avoid criminal proceedings or added admin fees.

....It's not reasonable to expect anyone to buy tickets in advance. I don't think it's reasonable to expect people to queue for upwards of 20 minutes either....

no-one is expecting people to buy in advance, and maybe excessive queuing is an issue, but then walking past an open ticket office without stopping for a ticket is also unreasonable.

....That's an awful analogy. If you make it difficult for people to obey the law, then, surprise, surprise, people won't. That doesn't make them right, but it does mean that they should not be held to the same degree of responsibility as someone who deliberately flouts the law.

It wasn't meant to be an analogy, but in any case, it is hardly awful.

Is it really so difficult to queue up for a ticket, even if you give up after, say, 10 minutes? (that would atleast show they were willing to buy ticket even if they didn't actually do so)

The fact is that it has become second nature for most people to be opportunistic, to avoid paying because no-one asked for payment. There are people who come to me at work to buy a ticket after travelling, even though they could just walk on by and no-one would know they hadn't got one. On days where there is a block that number increases atleast ten fold.

Lets be fair, no-one is going to be prosecuted for failing to buy a ticket if, between the time they enter railway property and the time they leave it, they were not given an opportunity to purchase a ticket for the journey they made, but walking straight past an open ticket office, regardless of queue length, is as good as doing 150mph on the road.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

. . . . . someone was actually stopped outside the station, questioning the legality of whether they could actually be stopped somewhere that potentially was not property of the railway.

There is no reason why an Inspector cannot seek to interview a passenger beyond the platform - or even beyond the station perimiter. However, they do not have the authority to compell the person to answer any questions nor to detain them. An interview conducted under PACE should include the explanation that the person is not obliged to answer any questions and in fact, that remark does permit the person to simply walk away; of course many people will think (rightly perhaps) that their refusal will be interpreted as indicating guilt whether they have anything to feel guilty about or not!

In such circumstances the passenger is free to walk away, and if they have not even reached the point of indentifying themselves then there can be little chance of any consequences. A well trained Inspector may stand in such a manner to give the impression of physically blocking the person's departure but it should only be an impression.

Any Inspector or other Officer attempting to detain a passenger by way of an Any Person Arrest (f.k.a. a Citizens' Arrest) or any other physical restraint would be taking quite a risk.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

but what about all the people eho use piccadilly to shop eat and drink (there are alot)

G4 work exits from platforms only NOT exits from the station itself

Is it not possible for staff to identify people walking from the platform straight to the exit and stopping them to ask if they have a ticket?

I'll be honest, it sounds rather inefficient to me, but not impossible to catch people out.

 

[radamfi]

Is it really so difficult to queue up for a ticket, even if you give up after, say, 10 minutes? (that would atleast show they were willing to buy ticket even if they didn't actually do so)

Asking people to queue for 10 minutes after travel is very likely to make some people think twice about taking the train next time, which is what we are all trying to avoid.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

Isn't that open to interpretation though?

If you did Mobberley-Delamere (both unstaffed) and weren't given the opportunity to buy on board where are you supposed to send your fare to? Northern don't publicise an address to put uncollected fares to, or have a secure online payment system for collecting such fares.

FCC's Thameslink route is like a free ride to many after 7pm - no staff at start or destination station and DOO trains. The attitude appears to be it isn't worth putting revenue staff on trains as it wouldn't pay their wages - just budget costs based on our captive season ticket holders.

 

[radamfi]

FCC's Thameslink route is like a free ride to many after 7pm - no staff at start or destination station and DOO trains. The attitude appears to be it isn't worth putting revenue staff on trains as it wouldn't pay their wages - just budget costs based on our captive season ticket holders.

At least it is relatively easy to buy tickets at the TVMs on most FCC stations. Northern think it is OK to delay honest passengers for a long time at the end of the journey because they don't have TVMs.

 

[JoeGJ1984]

I must admit, I wouldn't know what to do if I arrived at Shrewsbury station without a ticket by having started from an unstaffed station (there are several unstaffed stations in the area) and the barriers were closed. There's no ticket office inside the barriers. Looking at the plan, there is a Customer Assistance Point (which is on the platform and not the subway as the map seems to imply) - I've seen it in real life, but never used it. I don't know if they sell tickets though.

Similar situation with Birmingham New Street - there seems to be no ticket office inside the gateline in the plan, but there is a 'Rail Information' point next to the barriers and on the inside. I don't know if it sells tickets though.

Anyway, what should one do if one reached either Shrewsbury or Birmingham New Street without a ticket?

 

[radamfi]

Anyway, what should one do if one reached either
Shrewsbury or Birmingham New Street without a ticket?

Apparently, queue at the ticket office indefinitely.

 

[richw]

What is deemed a reasonable or acceptable queuing time at a ticket office?
E.g I arrive at station ticket office queue at 1540, Train at 1605, the queue is slow moving and by 1600 i leave the queue to catch my train. I then Get on Train where no opportunity is made to buy a ticket. I reach my destination at 1640, I have to be at an important appointment 10 mins away at 1700. If i queue for 10 minutes, I have made reasonable effort to buy a ticket, however the TOC has not made a reasonable effort to sell me a ticket, due to inefficient ticket offices. Who's fault is it? I'd made 20 mins allowance at start station, and then 10 mins further at destination, plus a 35 minute journey. That would surely be a reasonable attempt to buy a ticket. What would happen if i was stopped leaving the station by an RPI, I'm assuming prosecution, but i'd made intent to buy tickets however i was unable to due to unreasonable queueng time, as the offence wording generally says about intent

 

[JoeGJ1984]

Apparently, queue at the ticket office indefinitely.

But you wouldn't be able to get to the ticket office because you would be inside the barriers while the ticket office was outside.

 

[radamfi]

What is deemed a reasonable or acceptable queuing time at a ticket office?

The railway's attitude is 'tough'. We will still prosecute you for fare evasion if you have queued for 2 hours at your destination and gave up.

 

[richw]

The railway's attitude is 'tough'. We will still prosecute you for fare evasion if you have queued for 2 hours at your destination and gave up.

although the ruling says reasonable intent, queueing for 2 hrs shows reasonable intent?