Paddington derailment 16/06/16

[Siemens Staines]

Now. On Thursday the LTV fleet was stretched quite thin, and this was exasperated somewhat by HSS borrowing a 3 car for the 1736 Paddington - Oxford. The 1836 was also looking like it was likely to be a 3 car, so a plan was hatched. 1H52 would have no attachment and run 3 vice 5. 3H52 would be held back until after 1H52 had departed, then slip in to platform 1 and the 3 car off the Oak on 3D61 (3 vice 6 due to fleet shortages) could be slipped in on top to make a 5 car vice 6. Yes it probably upsets the Henley punters, and the regulars would have to put up with a platform change, but it puts more seats on the Oxford, which given the previous semi an hour earlier was 3 vice 8 isn't the worst call in the grand scheme of things.

The only flaw in the otherwise brilliant plan was 3H52 made its way into Paddington much earlier than anyone in control or TVSC intended!

So if 3H52 was not going to form part of 1H52, then given the derailment happened very close to the departure time of 1H52 (based upon the time the stranded emus stopped having timing updates) this appears to have been close to a far more serious collision because the 3 car on 1H52 would surely have hit the partially demolished OLE gantry had 1H52 departed?

 

[ScouserGirl]

And there was me thinking 3H52 was the 1625 Reading Depot to Paddington!

i thought it was from reading depot to paddington too!

 

[Phil.]

There have been instances of SPARS in sidings - Harrow and Wealdstone turnback - where drivers have observed points move , notched up , and found the signal at red....no great harm done....but .....

Let us please leave speculation out of this , until a full , unbiased report is done by professionals...

SPARS - another acronym that I'm unfamiliar with.

 

[pdeaves]

SPAR = signal passed at red.

There is a technical difference to SPAD (signal passed at danger) depending on the reason it happened.

 

[Phil.]

Points will often set before the signal clears. You are at risk of a SPAD if you are watching the points. I can relay an incident where the Driver was watching the points go over and took power. Suffice to say he went through the signal.

What is important is that you should be watching the signal and the indication it gives you. Watching points is the last thing on my mind. Yes I may have a glance at them but my focus must be on the signal and the indication.

What was mentioned about is where you can read across or read through. That often happens because your focus in on other things rather than correctly target fixing your signal. I've seen points clear for my movement and then switch back again.

If I'm looking at the signal then I'm doing my job. I'm target fixing and I'm putting my trust in the Signaller. I shouldn't be second guessing.

I'm not saying we don't look as that's human nature but our job is to target fix and watch the signals.

Well I do admit to being an old fogey but when I were nobbut a lad when coming out of a siding checking the shunt signal was off would be followed by a quick glimpse at the points just in case - which is how a Cambridge driver dropped a 31 on the floor coming out of Foxton circa 1973 as the interlocking at Foxton 'box was a bit iffy. You seem to be suggesting that I'm suggesting that it's correct to assume that the signal is cleared when the points are laid in the correct position closing the traps. Thereby lies madness.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

SPAR = signal passed at red.

There is a technical difference to SPAD (signal passed at danger) depending on the reason it happened.

I'm obviously getting old. I was always taught red for danger, end of.

 

[Taunton]

Still disappointing that more than three days from Thursday afternoon after a straightforward derailment and striking just one overhead mast, way over on one side of a wide formation, there's still notable disruption to services, particularly to Heathrow, by the Sunday evening, even with reduced weekend movement levels.

How is it that nowadays it takes so long to deal with a straightforward derailment. Time was when such an event was picked up in hours, not days. Now I know the RAIB should be retitled NSRPB, or the "Normal Service Resumption Prevention Branch", while they trundle to and from Derby and stop everyone else achieving anything meanwhile, but even so the time taken to fix such events becomes ever more ludicrous.

Now you might think from my name here that I have some knowledge of the huge disaster just west of Taunton in 1940, 27 killed, when a down express also went through the trap points, but at high speed, and was totally wrecked. Too young to have known it, but I knew several old railwaymen (plus our family doctor) who could still speak in detail about that night, and indeed what they did there. The Newton Abbot big crane was there within four hours. All running lines completely cleared and open in 36 hours. This done by the older staff, most of the younger and fitter ones being off in the army. They would just laugh at the time taken to deal with simple issues nowadays. Has nobody ever seen and handled an electrification mast knocked down before?

In passing can someone from the DfT have a word with Heathrow Express (they may not be a franchised TOC but there's nothing to stop any "having a word", or stronger) to prevent them, at the slightest sign of disruption, cancelling the Connect altogether (which HEx actually run) while still running their beloved non-stop Express. The Connect, the only service into Heathrow from the intermediate points, should be the LAST service to Heathrow to be cancelled in disruption, not the first. Why as a minimum could it not run all stations between Heathrow and Ealing Broadway?

 

[zaax]

Still disappointing that more than three days from Thursday afternoon after a straightforward derailment and striking just one overhead mast, way over on one side of a wide formation, there's still notable disruption to services, particularly to Heathrow, by the Sunday evening, even with reduced weekend movement levels.

The cement had to set for the gantry pole before it was restrung

 

[carriageline]

For my benefit and I hope accepted as a genuine question, what are the rules for a driver if he's in an engineering train during a possession ? The signalling could be disconnected so does he check the points ahead of him as he approaches as well as getting confirmation that they're set correctly ?

The ES (engineering supervisor) is in charge of the worksite. Therefore, he knows what's going on. Under him, he will have point operators who can manually "wind" (operate) points to their required position, and if required secure them with a clip and scotch. So the ES will know (generally it's him that wants to move the train) the train needs to be moved, so in this situation will call his point operators and tell them what points in what position.

If there is no disconnection, the same can apply but the ES/PICOP will often contact the signaller too, to ask ask to set the route manually.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

In an engineering possession, if points aren't physically being moved at a given time will they be manually locked in place?

Same as above really. From a signallers side, once a possession has been taken, all points within it will be maintained in their current position (i normally normalise everything to save confusion)

Then if the points are required to be moved, then the ES/points operator will either call to allow the points to be taken "on the handle" (basically under local control), or call and ask for a route to be set.

Please note, what happens on the ground may be different, but this is what I've seen and heard as a signaller!

 

[Taunton]

The cement had to set for the gantry pole before it was restrung

Any civils engineer should understand Rapid Hardening Cement, where they can get it from, and be familiar with the manual "How to replace an overhead mast in double-quick time".

 

[DarloRich]

Still disappointing that more than three days from Thursday afternoon after a straightforward derailment and striking just one overhead mast, way over on one side of a wide formation, there's still notable disruption to services, particularly to Heathrow, by the Sunday evening, even with reduced weekend movement levels.

How is it that nowadays it takes so long to deal with a straightforward derailment. Time was when such an event was picked up in hours, not days. Now I know the RAIB should be retitled NSRPB, or the "Normal Service Resumption Prevention Branch", while they trundle to and from Derby and stop everyone else achieving anything meanwhile, but even so the time taken to fix such events becomes ever more ludicrous.

Now you might think from my name here that I have some knowledge of the huge disaster just west of Taunton in 1940, 27 killed, when a down express also went through the trap points, but at high speed, and was totally wrecked. Too young to have known it, but I knew several old railwaymen (plus our family doctor) who could still speak in detail about that night, and indeed what they did there. The Newton Abbot big crane was there within four hours. All running lines completely cleared and open in 36 hours. This done by the older staff, most of the younger and fitter ones being off in the army. They would just laugh at the time taken to deal with simple issues nowadays. Has nobody ever seen and handled an electrification mast knocked down before?

In passing can someone from the DfT have a word with Heathrow Express (they may not be a franchised TOC but there's nothing to stop any "having a word", or stronger) to prevent them, at the slightest sign of disruption, cancelling the Connect altogether (which HEx actually run) while still running their beloved non-stop Express. The Connect, the only service into Heathrow from the intermediate points, should be the LAST service to Heathrow to be cancelled in disruption, not the first. Why as a minimum could it not run all stations between Heathrow and Ealing Broadway?

is it worth making the normal points that are required after a post of this nature or shall i keep it at this one:

it isn't 1957 anymore and the world has changed.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Any civils engineer should understand Rapid Hardening Cement, where they can get it from, and be familiar with the manual "How to replace an overhead mast in double-quick time".

you assume that such a wonderful product is passed for use in such a circumstance. However don't let inconvenient facts from getting in the way of your usual rant about how things were better in the past. :roll:

For instance, there are less breakdown cranes than ever before ( 4?) and it doesn't look like one would have been suitable here due to all the OHLE. The train was re railed using jacks ( a video appeared on twitter last night). Also NR must arrange with haulier to pick up and deliver the crane to site, ensure the haulier has enough drivers and men to move the crane, keep the train manned throughout the works, move the train as required and move the crane out of the way later.

There aren't lots of spare drivers just sitting around waiting for the call to action. There may have been in the past but there aren't now and nor is traction knowledge as wide as it was under BR with general purpose depots. You cant just throw a 47 on the front and pick any freight or passenger man with knowledge like you could in the old days. When you get to site you cant just set up and lift. You have to have sign offs, lift plans, competent staff etc etc. and comply with any number of statutory requirements that didn't exist in 195X.

 

[Harbornite]

Still disappointing that more than three days from Thursday afternoon after a straightforward derailment and striking just one overhead mast, way over on one side of a wide formation, there's still notable disruption to services, particularly to Heathrow, by the Sunday evening, even with reduced weekend movement levels.

How is it that nowadays it takes so long to deal with a straightforward derailment. Time was when such an event was picked up in hours, not days. Now I know the RAIB should be retitled NSRPB, or the "Normal Service Resumption Prevention Branch", while they trundle to and from Derby and stop everyone else achieving anything meanwhile, but even so the time taken to fix such events becomes ever more ludicrous.

Now you might think from my name here that I have some knowledge of the huge disaster just west of Taunton in 1940, 27 killed, when a down express also went through the trap points, but at high speed, and was totally wrecked. Too young to have known it, but I knew several old railwaymen (plus our family doctor) who could still speak in detail about that night, and indeed what they did there. The Newton Abbot big crane was there within four hours. All running lines completely cleared and open in 36 hours. This done by the older staff, most of the younger and fitter ones being off in the army. They would just laugh at the time taken to deal with simple issues nowadays. Has nobody ever seen and handled an electrification mast knocked down before?

Perhaps because the modern railway has a great reliance on health and safety (for good reasons) and modern timetables are more intensive. Anyway that's like comparing apples and pears because Paddington is considerably busier than Taunton.

 

[ainsworth74]

There also isn't, you know, a World War on at the moment so keeping vital arteries clear at the expense of serious investigation and total adherence to safety procedure isn't something that's quite as important as perhaps it was in 1940...

 

[D1009]

He was going from Royal Oak Sidings via the Link Line to platform 1.

And there was me thinking 3H52 was the 1625 Reading Depot to Paddington!

i thought it was from reading depot to paddington too!

You are all correct, as I understand it. 3H52 was diverted into Royal Oak Sidings that day as it passed Ladbroke Grove early.

 

[Taunton]

you assume that such a wonderful product is passed for use in such a circumstance.

How else do you think you do concrete repairs to motorways that can be run over by heavy traffic a few hours later? These are modern sophisticated materials. I suppose I could say "it isn't 1957 anymore and the world has changed."

 

[DarloRich]

How else do you think you do concrete repairs to motorways that can be run over by heavy traffic a few hours later? These are modern sophisticated materials. I suppose I could say "it isn't 1957 anymore and the world has changed."

you miss the point: If it isn't passed for use on the railway it ain't getting used, quick drying or otherwise, to fix the railway infrastructure. It doesn't matter what they use to fix motorways, run ways, children playgrounds or my path. No certification: no use.

 

[ComUtoR]

You seem to be suggesting that I'm suggesting that it's correct to assume that the signal is cleared when the points are laid in the correct position closing the traps. Thereby lies madness.

Crikey no. Please don't assume that. My post was in reply to a rather ill considered post about checking points and how awesome someone's train driving skills were.

Someone jumped on my post, someone jumped on that, things went on a tangent and just like a forum, it all got in a bit of a mess.

 

[Clip]

How else do you think you do concrete repairs to motorways that can be run over by heavy traffic a few hours later? These are modern sophisticated materials. I suppose I could say "it isn't 1957 anymore and the world has changed."

Of which you missed the salient point Mr Darlo of the Midlands made made which was abotu re-railing the train and then also reqwiring and also relaying the track too. But nah just shove some quick drying cement down, it works on a motorway so should do here eh?

 

[pdeaves]

How else do you think you do concrete repairs to motorways that can be run over by heavy traffic a few hours later?

In addition to what DarloRich says, the way the pertinent forces apply are very different. More-or-less perpendicular, I would expect.

 

[Scott M]

Still disappointing that more than three days from Thursday afternoon after a straightforward derailment and striking just one overhead mast, way over on one side of a wide formation, there's still notable disruption to services, particularly to Heathrow, by the Sunday evening, even with reduced weekend movement levels.

How is it that nowadays it takes so long to deal with a straightforward derailment. Time was when such an event was picked up in hours, not days. Now I know the RAIB should be retitled NSRPB, or the "Normal Service Resumption Prevention Branch", while they trundle to and from Derby and stop everyone else achieving anything meanwhile, but even so the time taken to fix such events becomes ever more ludicrous.

Now you might think from my name here that I have some knowledge of the huge disaster just west of Taunton in 1940, 27 killed, when a down express also went through the trap points, but at high speed, and was totally wrecked. Too young to have known it, but I knew several old railwaymen (plus our family doctor) who could still speak in detail about that night, and indeed what they did there. The Newton Abbot big crane was there within four hours. All running lines completely cleared and open in 36 hours. This done by the older staff, most of the younger and fitter ones being off in the army. They would just laugh at the time taken to deal with simple issues nowadays. Has nobody ever seen and handled an electrification mast knocked down before?

In passing can someone from the DfT have a word with Heathrow Express (they may not be a franchised TOC but there's nothing to stop any "having a word", or stronger) to prevent them, at the slightest sign of disruption, cancelling the Connect altogether (which HEx actually run) while still running their beloved non-stop Express. The Connect, the only service into Heathrow from the intermediate points, should be the LAST service to Heathrow to be cancelled in disruption, not the first. Why as a minimum could it not run all stations between Heathrow and Ealing Broadway?

Problems are less frequent so people become deskilled in solving them.

I prefer this situation; like they say in healthcare, prevention is better than cure!

 

[Taunton]

I've never seen such a litany of ludicrously wimpish excuses for inaction in my life.

Well, I have actually. At the last incident where I had the temerity to comment on incompetence by the know-nothings who draw large salaries nowadays to be "in charge".

 

[455driver]

I've never seen such a litany of ludicrously wimpish excuses for inaction in my life.

Well, I have actually. At the last incident where I had the temerity to comment on incompetence by the know-nothings who draw large salaries nowadays to be "in charge".

Can you list exactly what damage was caused at Paddington, how it was repaired, the safe systems of work etc please.
Then list what you think should have happened.

Thanks.

 

[GadgetMan]

Can you list exactly what damage was caused at Paddington, how it was repaired, the safe systems of work etc please.
Then list what you think should have happened.

Thanks.

Thats easy.

Damage;

Damage to train,
Gantry,
OHL,
Possibly rails and points.

Fix;

Get Driver to change ends, Drive the train back in opposite direction and steer it back on to the rails.
Get a couple of plumbers with pipe benders to straighten the bent structure back to vertical.
Stick the wires back up with chewing gum, use a soldering iron to repair any breaks in the wires.

Sit back, enjoy a cup of tea and watch the trains resume. With a couple of tea breaks It shouldn't take more than 90 mins.

 

[Mag_seven]

a straightforward derailment

I just love the wibble you sometimes read on here.

 

[Flamingo]

I've never seen such a litany of ludicrously wimpish excuses for inaction in my life.

Well, I have actually. At the last incident where I had the temerity to comment on incompetence by the know-nothings who draw large salaries nowadays to be "in charge".

As opposed to the amateurs who know everything and give their knowledge for free

 

[DarloRich]

I've never seen such a litany of ludicrously wimpish excuses for inaction in my life.

Well, I have actually. At the last incident where I had the temerity to comment on incompetence by the know-nothings who draw large salaries nowadays to be "in charge".

so, oh great expert to be revered, please set out below how you think this matter could have been dealt with much more quickly.

Please try to illustrate your answer with examples from the 21st century, not something that happened when Adam was a lad. In particular try to focus on the regulatory and legislative framework in place today along with the fractured nature of the modern railway . Extra credit will be given for showing your workings out.

Or not and just sit back pointing out how everything was better when I were a lad

 

[cjmillsnun]

How else do you think you do concrete repairs to motorways that can be run over by heavy traffic a few hours later? These are modern sophisticated materials. I suppose I could say "it isn't 1957 anymore and the world has changed."

Hmm those self same repairs that are potholes again in less than 6 months when used purely in compression (concrete's ideal situation)? Yeah really suitable for a railway that will have tension forces applied to the mast base as well as compression.

Also have you considered damage to track. Damage to insulators and OHLE cables from stretching meaning tensions are incorrect. Damage to S&T? Not checking all the OHLE in that section could lead to dewirement and far greater delay. Damage to S&T could lead to a wrong side failure on a signal and another potential accident like Clapham Junction, causing loss of life, serious injuries and further delays.

In 1940 there was no OHLE on the GWML, the repairs were very much patch up to press it back in service (which contributed to the lousy state of the infrastructure after the war), whereas nowadays the job is done properly and safely to minimise going back later in to fix up a bodge done to get trains running quickly.

 

[Railops]

One thing is certain if the Japanese were in charge of repairs it wouldn't have taken anywhere near the time it has, they are the experts in this type of thing.

 

[SWT_USER]

According to GWR overhead line problems between Paddington and Greenford mean the service is only running Greenford to West Ealing. Seems very strange that it only affects the Greenford train.. anyone know what's going on?

 

[bolli]

According to GWR overhead line problems between Paddington and Greenford mean the service is only running Greenford to West Ealing. Seems very strange that it only affects the Greenford train.. anyone know what's going on?

Platform usage? The Greenfords are an easy cut to free up some space...

 

[matt_world2004]

Thats easy.

Damage;

Damage to train,
Gantry,
OHL,
Possibly rails and points.

Fix;

Get Driver to change ends, Drive the train back in opposite direction and steer it back on to the rails.
Get a couple of plumbers with pipe benders to straighten the bent structure back to vertical.
Stick the wires back up with chewing gum, use a soldering iron to repair any breaks in the wires.

Sit back, enjoy a cup of tea and watch the trains resume. With a couple of tea breaks It shouldn't take more than 90 mins.

Generally drivers can't drive after a spad unless it is to get passengers to the next station for detraining