Paddington derailment 16/06/16

[edwin_m]

Equally, given the damage the cab corner looks to have taken hitting the catenary post, if it needs specialist bodyshell repairs it may be better to get that done elsewhere, rather than risking the scheduling of the main refurbishment programme at Wolverton, which won't allow time for that kind of heavy repair on top of the refurb work.

Yes, any significant damage to the welded aluminium bodyshell could be tricky to fix. Is the driving car bodyshell still around from the unit whose other driving car was destroyed at Ladbroke Grove?

 

[455driver]

Is the driving car bodyshell still around from the unit whose other driving car was destroyed at Ladbroke Grove?

No, that has long since been scrapped.

 

[theageofthetra]

In this type of unit are both cars driven or is it essentially a push/pull?

 

[MarlowDonkey]

In this type of unit are both cars driven or is it essentially a push/pull?

In the 16x series, all units are powered, even the centre cars. I suppose this helps with timetabling since performance is independent of how long a train they run.

 

[gsnedders]

Given the damage to the wheels, do we expect it to be taken far by rail?

 

[BestWestern]

Given the damage to the wheels, do we expect it to be taken far by rail?

I presume an inspection at Old Oak will determine that

 

[dzug2]

What's the problem with the Connect and HEX today? Platforms 1-4 seem to be back in use so it shouldn't be line capacity.

 

[Dr_Paul]

Trap points not catch points

What's the difference between them?

 

[74A]

What's the problem with the Connect and HEX today? Platforms 1-4 seem to be back in use so it shouldn't be line capacity.

Not back in use yet

 

[edwin_m]

What's the difference between them?

Trap points are used to derail a train that tries to exit a siding or some loops and freight-only tracks onto a passenger running line, except when the signal is clear for it to do so.

Catch points were used to derail a portion of a train if it broke away on a gradient and was running away in the wrong direction. They are now obsolete with all trains having continuous brakes. They looked the same but catch points were almost always spring-loaded and trap points are remotely worked by the signalling.

 

[Dr_Paul]

Trap points are used to derail a train that tries to exit a siding or some loops and freight-only tracks onto a passenger running line, except when the signal is clear for it to do so. Catch points were used to derail a portion of a train if it broke away on a gradient and was running away in the wrong direction. They are now obsolete with all trains having continuous brakes. They looked the same but catch points were almost always spring-loaded and trap points are remotely worked by the signalling.

Thanks for that; I thought that they were catch points. I'll call them by their right name in future.

 

[Phil.]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHa

You win post of the week. As has already been eloquently highlighted. There is so much more to a SPAD than watching points and linespeeds. BTW if your watching the points then your doing it wrong.

So when taking a train out of a siding you wouldn't have a look at the lay of the points just in case?

 

[ComUtoR]

So when taking a train out of a siding you wouldn't have a look at the lay of the points just in case?

Points will often set before the signal clears. You are at risk of a SPAD if you are watching the points. I can relay an incident where the Driver was watching the points go over and took power. Suffice to say he went through the signal.

What is important is that you should be watching the signal and the indication it gives you. Watching points is the last thing on my mind. Yes I may have a glance at them but my focus must be on the signal and the indication.

What was mentioned about is where you can read across or read through. That often happens because your focus in on other things rather than correctly target fixing your signal. I've seen points clear for my movement and then switch back again.

If I'm looking at the signal then I'm doing my job. I'm target fixing and I'm putting my trust in the Signaller. I shouldn't be second guessing.

I'm not saying we don't look as that's human nature but our job is to target fix and watch the signals.

 

[Scott M]

Thanks. A lot of good replies to my queries.

I've noticed a lot of drivers seem to be rallying around the driver in question, in a sense that it mightn't be his fault that he had a SPAD. So I am just wondering, if it is proven to be a driver error SPAD, but there are mitigating circumstances such as distractions or poor railhead conditions, what sort of action would be taken - retraining to avoid distractions?

 

[Nippy]

It will all depend on any previous history etc and the circumstances. Note, what I'm saying next is entirely, hypothetical!

If the the driver was having a sneezing fit approaching the signal I would think they would be treated differently to someone who was playing around with their phone.

Please note, I'm not for one minute suggesting this is the case, just showing how things could be treated differently.

 

[D1009]

25mph and the driver would have been med screened (test for drink and drugs) before he went home.

Isn't there a lower speed applicable to sidings?

 

[ComUtoR]

Isn't there a lower speed applicable to sidings?

Which sidings ?

 

[Sacro]

Isn't there a lower speed applicable to sidings?

Can be, however in this case they're 25mph.

The Western Region Sectional Appendix is publically available and contains this information (and more)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Points will often set before the signal clears.

Not often, (99.99% or more) always.

The whole design of the signalling system is that it checks there are no conflicting routes, it checks all the relevant tracks are unoccupied, it changes the points, locks them and checks they are correct, then if everything is satisfactory, it clears the signal.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

What angers almost everyone who knows anything about the railway is the use of the phrase "running a red light" (by the BBC) as posted earlier.

This is what happened, how else would you word it?

 

[talltim]

Technically yes, a red light was run. However the phrase carries connotations of doing it on purpose

 

[ComUtoR]

Not often, (99.99% or more) always.

Kinda obvious but.

You also have points that set away from your movement. A good example is St Albans Centre sidings where the points flip either side. When your sitting there it can be disconcerting.

For your signal to clear they must be set for your movement. (or whatever the indication is given)

The point is that watching points will not confirm the signal will clear. Even if your points over it may be some time before the signal clears.

Not all points are visible from the signal either so by the time you see them it may be too late to put the brake in and if your looking out the window searching for your set of points then again you really shouldn't be. Keep focused on the road ahead (GTR catchphrase...)

The guys and gals in the ivory towers know what they are doing.

 

[Hellzapoppin]

For my benefit and I hope accepted as a genuine question, what are the rules for a driver if he's in an engineering train during a possession ? The signalling could be disconnected so does he check the points ahead of him as he approaches as well as getting confirmation that they're set correctly ?

 

[ChiefPlanner]

There have been instances of SPARS in sidings - Harrow and Wealdstone turnback - where drivers have observed points move , notched up , and found the signal at red....no great harm done....but .....

Let us please leave speculation out of this , until a full , unbiased report is done by professionals...

 

[455driver]

Isn't there a lower speed applicable to sidings?

The train wasnt in a siding so what is the relevance?

 

[Sacro]

The train wasnt in a siding so what is the relevance?

He was going from Royal Oak Sidings via the Link Line to platform 1.

 

[Melancholia]

According to this tweet, we should be expecting normal service to resume tomorrow morning.

 

[455driver]

He was going from Royal Oak Sidings via the Link Line to platform 1.

And there was me thinking 3H52 was the 1625 Reading Depot to Paddington!

 

[LAX54]

For my benefit and I hope accepted as a genuine question, what are the rules for a driver if he's in an engineering train during a possession ? The signalling could be disconnected so does he check the points ahead of him as he approaches as well as getting confirmation that they're set correctly ?

Travel at speed so that you can stop in the distance that you can see, also there 'should' be a points operator to ensure route set correctly, but the route should be set before he moves off.

 

[Hellzapoppin]

Many thanks os.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

In an engineering possession, if points aren't physically being moved at a given time will they be manually locked in place?

 

[JN114]

He was going from Royal Oak Sidings via the Link Line to platform 1.

And there was me thinking 3H52 was the 1625 Reading Depot to Paddington!

You are both correct.

1K69 (3 car) arrives from Bedwyn at 1655, and shunts into Royal Oak at 1718. At 1745 it shunts back onto the blocks of P1 at Paddington - this out and back is simply to clear a platform during the peak. Meanwhile, 3H52 (2 car) meanders its merry way up to London from the TCD via every goods loop and milepost, and eventually at 1754 attaches to the set on the blocks of 1 for the 1812 Paddington - Henley.

Now. On Thursday the LTV fleet was stretched quite thin, and this was exasperated somewhat by HSS borrowing a 3 car for the 1736 Paddington - Oxford. The 1836 was also looking like it was likely to be a 3 car, so a plan was hatched. 1H52 would have no attachment and run 3 vice 5. 3H52 would be held back until after 1H52 had departed, then slip in to platform 1 and the 3 car off the Oak on 3D61 (3 vice 6 due to fleet shortages) could be slipped in on top to make a 5 car vice 6. Yes it probably upsets the Henley punters, and the regulars would have to put up with a platform change, but it puts more seats on the Oxford, which given the previous semi an hour earlier was 3 vice 8 isn't the worst call in the grand scheme of things.

The only flaw in the otherwise brilliant plan was 3H52 made its way into Paddington much earlier than anyone in control or TVSC intended!