Pacers running on preserved railways - your thoughts?

[InkyScrolls]

I can only conclude that 42.9% of respondents to this poll never had to commute by Pacer.

I commuted by Pacer for years (on jointed track I might add, at up to 65 mph!), and I'm definitely 'pro Pacer'.

 

[PacerTrain142]

I know they’re not comfortable, but they are cheap to operate. Especially with the cost to live in going up. It’s almost essential for small heritage railways and even the big ones. To use them.

Yes I agree. The pacers saved some branch lines from closing and may well now save some heritage lines from closing!

 

[Pacerboy1000]

It's only worth doing if there's enough people buying tickets to ride them. The railways will also need to weigh up the cost of repeat business not returning: there may be some who turn up, find its a Pacer and say "never again

You’re right, there needs to be enough people buying tickets. But with the cost of living at the moment. there is no guarantee, that people can afford to go behind a steam loco or the railway can reasonably justify putting a steam loco on. I think for the time being their approach is the best option. To secure their finances and most importantly to survive.

 

[stuu]

But the point is if you don’t preserve modern stuff it won’t be there to be heritage in the future…the science museum in Manchester has computers of similar vintage to the Pacers on display, some people may think it’s not worthy but unless museums save that stuff not it’ll all be in a skip and nothing for us to look back on in our dotage…

Yes, clearly a conundrum, the difference is that a 1985 computer would have been replaced by 1990, while the pacers have only just stopped. I can't imagine many people being keen to pay money to travel on one, as I said they aren't very different to a contemporary train

 

[dakta]

what is uptake on lines running them currently like? I went to wensleydale towards the end of the pandemic and attendance whilst not bursting wasn't bad considering. Wonder if it's settled down?

Even if they aren't popular now, efforts should be there to preserve and use them because their commercial use will disappear from living memory and that's when the sentiment will come from.

 

[yorksrob]

There’s other unit classes which I’d like - or more to the point prefer - to see fulfilling a similar function, not least the class 205 and 207 units, who did well in preservation when first withdrawn but their usage seems to have declined considerably over time.

Agree with this. Splendid trains.

 

[cakefiend]

They've definitely got a place - for some of these wee railways it's the only serviceable train they have!

 

[geordieblue]

Yes I agree. The pacers saved some branch lines from closing and may well now save some heritage lines from closing!

Which branch lines did the Pacers save?

 

[Neptune]

I can see the need to preserve examples from an industrial heritage point of view, but would never pay to go on one. Maybe in 25 years or something... but the whole point, for me, is a different experience to what you get on the main line. A pacer isn't that

But in that case preservation would never have happened. There were plenty of locos preserved when other examples were on the mainline, indeed most people love a class 37 on a heritage line yet they’re still a mainline loco and until a few years ago still hauling regular passenger trains such as around Norwich and the Cumbrian Coast. Should none be preserved until 25 years after the last one is withdrawn?

Also mk 1 coaches are the backbone of most preserved lines. They came off frontline service around the turn of the century. Should they only just start to be preserved now?

There’s so much snobbery amongst rail enthusiasts. Why can’t people accept that others have different interests?

 

[driverd]

I'm not sure why it's remotely controversial. There were DMMUs in preservation before the last 101s were withdrawn - yet that isn't ever seen as an issue at all. Atleast for the enthusiast cohort, a lot of people are now too young to remember steam, so to an extent, the nostalgia value is lost - its purely a novelty.

There is, however, a lot of nostalgia, for example, for the regional railways livery - the 143 at Wensleydale actively making me want to go back (more so than steam or a 1st gen DMU would).

As with everything, balance, I think is important - but if running a pacer allows a railway to continue to operate profitably, I have no objection to it.

 

[stuu]

There’s so much snobbery amongst rail enthusiasts. Why can’t people accept that others have different interests?

I said I wouldn't pay to travel on one, not that none should be preserved or no one should be allowed to be interested in them. Big difference

 

[Neptune]

I said I wouldn't pay to travel on one, not that none should be preserved or no one should be allowed to be interested in them. Big difference

Sorry if you misunderstood but I was commenting on this part of what you said:-

Maybe in 25 years or something... but the whole point, for me, is a different experience to what you get on the main line. A pacer isn't that

So does this apply to everything or just things you don’t like?

 

[PacerTrain142]

Yes, clearly a conundrum, the difference is that a 1985 computer would have been replaced by 1990, while the pacers have only just stopped. I can't imagine many people being keen to pay money to travel on one, as I said they aren't very different to a contemporary train

The pacers are very different to modern trains today. The experience on a 142 is very, very different compared to a 195 or a 333 for example. They feel very old fashioned compared to even a 158 despite the 158 only being built a few years later. Quite amazing really.

 

[dangerousdids2]

Absolutely. Not a great fan myself but the more variety on our heritage railways the better! It's a shame so many trains have been wiped of the face of the planet over the years never to be ridden again!

 

[stuu]

Sorry if you misunderstood but I was commenting on this part of what you said:-

So does this apply to everything or just things you don’t like?

It's called an opinion, on what "I" personally would be prepared to hand over "my" money for. What anyone else chooses to do is entirely, entirely their business

 

[xotGD]

They feel very old fashioned compared to even a 158 despite the 158 only being built a few years later.

Shows just how bad the Pacers are. Being stuck on a 142 when a 158 is on the adjacent platform was always a bit of a "Here's what you could have won" moment.

 

[Neptune]

It's called an opinion, on what "I" personally would be prepared to hand over "my" money for. What anyone else chooses to do is entirely, entirely their business

Sorry I must be missing something here. You said ‘Maybe in 25 years or something... but the whole point, for me, is a different experience to what you get on the main line. A pacer isn't that’.

Today you can only travel on an HST on a preserved line despite the fact they’re still in frontline service and I assume that’s ok so it’s the same experience as you can get on the mainline whereas the pacers finished on the mainline nearly 3 years ago and that’s not ok. Sorry I just don’t get your logic.

I get you don’t like pacers but your logic as quoted 3 times by me makes no sense unless you apply it to everything otherwise it just comes across as enthusiast snobbery ie ‘I don’t like it so it shouldn’t happen’.

 

[dakta]

so with over 100 voters it seems 80%+ are in the 'not bothered through total support' camp, so only 1 in 5 are actively wouldn't want to see them or think they should be reduced visibility because of what they are

They're not that controversial then, even as a supporter I thought it'd be a bit more than that

 

[stuu]

Sorry I must be missing something here. You said ‘Maybe in 25 years or something... but the whole point, for me, is a different experience to what you get on the main line. A pacer isn't that’.

Today you can only travel on an HST on a preserved line despite the fact they’re still in frontline service and I assume that’s ok so it’s the same experience as you can get on the mainline whereas the pacers finished on the mainline nearly 3 years ago and that’s not ok. Sorry I just don’t get your logic.

I get you don’t like pacers but your logic as quoted 3 times by me makes no sense unless you apply it to everything otherwise it just comes across as enthusiast snobbery ie ‘I don’t like it so it shouldn’t happen’.

Some huge leaps there. I haven't said anything negative about pacers, simply that they aren't the thing I would be looking for if I were planning to go on a heritage railway. At no point have I said it shouldn't happen, or even implied that.

I wouldn't pay to go on a heritage HST either

 

[Neptune]

But that still doesn’t answer the question. As you’ve said you think that preservation should only be something you can’t have on the mainline stating ‘maybe 25 years’ which assumes that you believe trains should be held in storage for 25 years until they are eligible to work on one.

Working on what you have stated then the preservation movement would never have got off the ground. I was travelling on mk 1 coaches in the 1970’s on preserved lines yet could get one on the mainline for another 20 years. How is this different to now travelling on a pacer that was withdrawn from the network nearly 3 years ago?

I know you’ll skirt around the question again but I’ll press the point as I don’t know what the difference is. What’s good enough for the goose etc….

 

[stuu]

But that still doesn’t answer the question. As you’ve said you think that preservation should only be something you can’t have on the mainline stating ‘maybe 25 years’ which assumes that you believe trains should be held in storage for 25 years until they are eligible to work on one.

No, I said I wouldn't pay to go on one now, but maybe I would in the future. I made no other comment about the validity of them being preserved, or anyone else's right to do whatever they please

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Shows just how bad the Pacers are. Being stuck on a 142 when a 158 is on the adjacent platform was always a bit of a "Here's what you could have won" moment.

It used to amuse me far more than it should have when (Serco+NS) Northern did a set-swap on the Leeds to Huddersfield line, replacing the usual 3-car 144 with a 2-car 155 or 158. There'd be a note on the platform screens apologising for the "short form" despite the swap gaining a metre of total length!

 

[PacerTrain142]

The Telford Steam Railway is having a dmu weekend where they are running class 142 and 144 pacers as well as a 108. They are calling it the “multiple mayhem” event. Very fitting name.

 

[Neptune]

No, I said I wouldn't pay to go on one now, but maybe I would in the future. I made no other comment about the validity of them being preserved, or anyone else's right to do whatever they please

Yes I get that but I don’t think you understand what I’m getting at.

You stated:-
Maybe in 25 years or something... but the whole point, for me, is a different experience to what you get on the main line. A pacer isn't that

My response is:-
Working on what you have stated then the preservation movement would never have got off the ground. I was travelling on mk 1 coaches in the 1970’s on preserved lines yet could get one on the mainline for another 20 years. How is this different to now travelling on a pacer that was withdrawn from the network nearly 3 years ago?

Can you not see how this looks if you don’t think this applies across the board and only to things you personally don’t agree with?

I guess you won’t answer this again though so I’ll leave it there.

 

[m79900]

The Telford Steam Railway is having a dmu weekend where they are running class 142 and 144 pacers as well as a 108. They are calling it the “multiple mayhem” event. Very fitting name.

That 108s at Peak Rail now.

 

[xotGD]

The Telford Steam Railway is having a dmu weekend where they are running class 142 and 144 pacers as well as a 108. They are calling it the “multiple mayhem” event. Very fitting name.

Perhaps "Pacer Purgatory" would be a more fitting description?

 

[stuu]

Yes I get that but I don’t think you understand what I’m getting at.

You stated:-
Maybe in 25 years or something... but the whole point, for me, is a different experience to what you get on the main line. A pacer isn't that

My response is:-
Working on what you have stated then the preservation movement would never have got off the ground. I was travelling on mk 1 coaches in the 1970’s on preserved lines yet could get one on the mainline for another 20 years. How is this different to now travelling on a pacer that was withdrawn from the network nearly 3 years ago?

Can you not see how this looks if you don’t think this applies across the board and only to things you personally don’t agree with?

I guess you won’t answer this again though so I’ll leave it there.

But the context is totally different. It's not the early years of the preservation movement, there are any number of choices available for our money. I have said also that pacers are part of our rail heritage, and should be preserved, but I wouldn't be interested in travelling on one any time soon.

Its my opinion, I don't know why you are so personally offended by it

 

[fairlie]

I'd agree some Pacers should be preserved but I have no interest in ever riding on one again! If people turn up to a heritage railway and a Pacer is what shows up, I can understand why they'd feel a bit short-changed.

 

[gingerheid]

In terms of business, they hold only very specialist interest. Most potential revenue sources are going to want something older / more exciting / more pretty.

The things most recently in service that I'd feel satisfied seeing at a heritage railway would probably be a 121.

 

[urpert]

The NVR has one, which I think fits rather well with their unusual (for a heritage line) collection of stock, including CIWL coaches and a Swedish rail car. I’d much rather that sort of variety than wall-to-wall Mk1s (which admittedly they do have too).