Pacers running on preserved railways - your thoughts?

[PacerTrain142]

So the preservation of the pacer units (class 141, 142, 143 and 144) (as well as 2nd generation DMU’s in general) is quite controversial. Supporters say that preservation must move on, that pacers are a part of railway history and so deserve to be preserved. They are also cheap to run, which in this age of austerity and massive inflation is important. But critics argue that they are still too modern for heritage lines and that the trains are unpopular and might discourage people from going to a preserved railway if they go and find there are pacers running.

This has been the case for the Wensleydale Railway, which used to run steam trains a few years ago. But due to increased running costs they now mostly just run pacers, and have received quite a few negative reviews on TripAdvisor (See pics below). However, some people said they did enjoy riding the pacer units, so it’s not all bad.

WENSLEYDALE RAILWAY: All You Need to Know BEFORE You Go (with Photos)

www.tripadvisor.co.uk

But there actually quite a lot of pacer fans out there, and I’ve watched videos on YouTube of pacers running on preserved lines and plenty of people riding on them, and appearing to enjoy the ride too. Some people do enjoy the bouncy ride and loud engines. I (as some of you know) personally love them, especially the 142’s, but I can see why a lot of people don’t like them. They are like the marmite of trains.

Pacers (and other trains from the 70’s/80’s) kind of fall into a no man’s land. A bit too old to still run on the national rail network, but still a bit too modern to be running on heritage lines alongside 1st gen DMU’s and steam trains. Maybe in 10-20 years time they will feel a bit more “vintage”. Painting them in old liveries (which many heritage railways have done) and restoring the original interior (bus bench seating) would increase the heritage feel.

So what’s your thoughts on heritage railways running pacers? - do you like it, do you think they should only run on special days (eg DMU galas) or do you think they have no place on any railways at all and they all should just be sent to the scrapyard?

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Doesn't one heritage railway that opened recently somewhere in Cornwall only have pacers?
They should 100% have them there because without there'd be nothing

Pacers are no longer in proper service, so therefore preserved railways (and LSL) are the only places where they'll continue operations.

 

[Jan Mayen]

I voted for the first answer. But not all railways. In the case of my local line (The Bluebell), having them form the first train of the day from East Grinstead would be nice, although that role will be filled by the Class 207 in due course.

 

[Gwr12345]

I think it's fine at off peak times or if you're running different traction as well, but solely operating them like the Wensleydale does during peak season with reasonably high prices is slightly taking the proverbial. Also if you are operating pacers, operate them in an old livery, not a debranded northern pacer, which just seems a bit lazy.
I am aware that the Wensleydale does not solely operate pacers but it is their primary mode of traction at all times of the year, not their 33, 37 or class 14

 

[Titfield]

The fundamental question for all heritage railways will be if they cease operating steam (or reduce it to a token presence) will visitor numbers continue at their current levels, grow or decline.

My gut feel is that the majority of visitors go for the steam experience and once that ceases so will their patronage. There simply wont be enough visitors prepared to pay to ride on a diesel heritage railway to keep that heritage railway in existence.

 

[dakta]

The arguments been done to death, all i can really say is they deserve no less attention than anything else (and they've put in their years of service) and if you really don't want to see them on your line then put some money there, join the committee, be part of it and make your voice heard - pitch in and keep steam viable.

These are testing times and I think, even knowing the realistic issues (i.e its not steam etc), they will play their part.

 

[Kite159]

They are the modern day version of older 1st Gen DMUs, fine to run on days of low demand where running a loco hauled train or steam train will cost more than the revenue it brings in.

And probably unlike a 121/122 spare parts are cheaper & more readily available for when things break.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

They are the modern day version of older 1st Gen DMUs, fine to run on days of low demand where running a loco hauled train or steam train will cost more than the revenue it brings in.

And probably unlike a 121/122 spare parts are cheaper & more readily available for when things break.

This is an important point. There will of course be some visitors who want to see and ride behind a steam train and will see anything else as a waste of time and money. It's been a while since I've been to a heritage line, but in the past some lines had a cut-price "early bird" ticket which meant taking the first outbound service of the day, which was diesel hauled. The Ffestiniog used to do this (we're talking 30 years ago now) and if they hadn't had that offer, my parents wouldn't have been able to take our family of five on the line at all. We still got plenty of kettle haulage on the return from Blaenau for my dad to get his nostalgia fix.
Running DMUs, whether Pacers or 1950s first gen units, is easier on the fuel bills, the volunteers and on the track itself- so it makes sense to use them for the first and last runs of the day.

 

[mjc]

This has been the case for the Wensleydale Railway, …have received quite a few negative reviews on TripAdvisor (See pics below). However, some people said they did enjoy riding the pacer units, so it’s not all bad.

WENSLEYDALE RAILWAY: All You Need to Know BEFORE You Go (with Photos)

www.tripadvisor.co.uk

I especially love the person who says these trains have no place being preserved for at least 20-25 years; now how do they think that works?

I’ll probably always prefer steam, even though as a child of the 80s my nostalgia is fake, or at least nostalgia of childhood holidays which included occasional trip on Paignton-Dartmouth preserved line, but as part of attraction can see Pacers working, but needs to be done properly.
The Pacer Rail Group are doing a great job cleaning up their unit at Foxfield, although mindless vandalism has slowed them down, and I think some kind of heritage livery is needed as well as some add ons to the experience, use it as a (cheaper) Santa Shuttle to a grotto at the station at the other end of the line and open up opportunities to people who can’t afford the £50+ Polar Express tickets for example…

 

[yorksrob]

There's definitely a place for them. The 144 on the ELR was popular at their DMU day.

 

[Ashley Hill]

Whilst most tourists will expect Steam of whatever type there is no reason why a Pacer could not be run as advertised on occasions. As others have said they are part of the railway’s heritage just the same as Terriers and Westerns. There will be the same discussion about Sprinters in the next few years.

 

[PacerTrain142]

There's definitely a place for them. The 144 on the ELR was popular at their DMU day.

True, seen videos of that and Im also hoping to ride on it on thier diesel gala this Friday and Saturday!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Sep 2023 ==

Whilst most tourists will expect Steam of whatever type there is no reason why a Pacer could not be run as advertised on occasions. As others have said they are part of the railway’s heritage just the same as Terriers and Westerns. There will be the same discussion about Sprinters in the next few years.

I’d like to see 153’s on preserved lines one day. I just love the novelty of it being a single carriage.

 

[twpsaesneg]

So the preservation of the pacer units (class 141, 142, 143 and 144) (as well as 2nd generation DMU’s in general) is quite controversial. Supporters say that preservation must move on, that pacers are a part of railway history and so deserve to be preserved. They are also cheap to run, which in this age of austerity and massive inflation is important. But critics argue that they are still too modern for heritage lines and that the trains are unpopular and might discourage people from going to a preserved railway if they go and find there are pacers running.

This has been the case for the Wensleydale Railway, which used to run steam trains a few years ago. But due to increased running costs they now mostly just run pacers, and have received quite a few negative reviews on TripAdvisor (See pics below). However, some people said they did enjoy riding the pacer units, so it’s not all bad.

WENSLEYDALE RAILWAY: All You Need to Know BEFORE You Go (with Photos)

www.tripadvisor.co.uk

But there actually quite a lot of pacer fans out there, and I’ve watched videos on YouTube of pacers running on preserved lines and plenty of people riding on them, and appearing to enjoy the ride too. Some people do enjoy the bouncy ride and loud engines. I (as some of you know) personally love them, especially the 142’s, but I can see why a lot of people don’t like them. They are like the marmite of trains.

Pacers (and other trains from the 70’s/80’s) kind of fall into a no man’s land. A bit too old to still run on the national rail network, but still a bit too modern to be running on heritage lines alongside 1st gen DMU’s and steam trains. Maybe in 10-20 years time they will feel a bit more “vintage”. Painting them in old liveries (which many heritage railways have done) and restoring the original interior (bus bench seating) would increase the heritage feel.

So what’s your thoughts on heritage railways running pacers? - do you like it, do you think they should only run on special days (eg DMU galas) or do you think they have no place on any railways at all and they all should just be sent to the scrapyard?

Very good poll on a good subject - thank you for putting it up.

What I found interesting on reading the reviews you posted, was that many of them were not solely about the provision of the pacer, but also about other things that had "gone wrong" on the day. I wonder if had the whole experience been better then the provision of "less heritage" rolling stock been less of a bugbear?

I do think that if they are used in service, an effort should be made to turn them out well - leaking / worn stock isn't particularly attractive whether it was built in 1884 or 1984.

I would be fairly unimpressed if I went for an expensive day out at a heritage railway if half the attractions were closed, I got rained on inside and the seats were worn out even if I was on a set of Churchward stock pulled by City of Truro!

 

[xotGD]

Maybe run a Pacer on a commuter service, with appropriate fares.

But charging the same as for a run behind a steam loco in a comfy Mark 1 or even older carriage is taking the proverbial.

 

[yorksrob]

True, seen videos of that and Im also hoping to ride on it on thier diesel gala this Friday and Saturday!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Sep 2023 ==


I’d like to see 153’s on preserved lines one day. I just love the novelty of it being a single carriage.

Oh, I forgot about their railcar day !

 

[m79900]

I’d like to see 153’s on preserved lines one day. I just love the novelty of it being a single carriage.

Well there’s plenty available, so maybe in the near future.

 

[Iskra]

I personally avoid them on heritage lines, but I’m a Northerner that’s being travelling on them for 30 years and they generally weren’t a great experience. I accept they give a decent view and are cheap to operate with abundant spare parts and people alive that know how to maintain them, but; they aren’t comfortable when busy, there isn’t enough room to spread out should there be noisy kids around, they don’t have a bar and I can’t lean out of the window.

I think they’re okay for fledgling railways, perhaps for a first service of they day on a more mainstream line, or as a second train to improve the frequency on a line, but as a sole attraction I have no interest in them whatsoever.

 

[xotGD]

I can only conclude that 42.9% of respondents to this poll never had to commute by Pacer.

 

[Trainguy34]

I can only conclude that 42.9% of respondents to this poll never had to commute by Pacer.

What's the other 1%?

 

[YorkshireBear]

I can only conclude that 42.9% of respondents to this poll never had to commute by Pacer.

Quite the contrary! I hated them, but nostalgia does that to you

 

[stuu]

I can see the need to preserve examples from an industrial heritage point of view, but would never pay to go on one. Maybe in 25 years or something... but the whole point, for me, is a different experience to what you get on the main line. A pacer isn't that

 

[PacerTrain142]

I can see the need to preserve examples from an industrial heritage point of view, but would never pay to go on one. Maybe in 25 years or something... but the whole point, for me, is a different experience to what you get on the main line. A pacer isn't that

The experience on a pacer is completely different to what you’d get on the mainline nowadays though. There is no other train like the pacer. The closest you’d get now is a 150.

 

[43096]

There is no other train like the pacer.

Thankfully…

 

[mjc]

I can see the need to preserve examples from an industrial heritage point of view, but would never pay to go on one. Maybe in 25 years or something... but the whole point, for me, is a different experience to what you get on the main line. A pacer isn't that

But where do you expect them to go for the next 25 years? To sit in a scrap yard slowly seizing up and rusting away so they’re a mammoth task to get running again?

 

[bramling]

So the preservation of the pacer units (class 141, 142, 143 and 144) (as well as 2nd generation DMU’s in general) is quite controversial. Supporters say that preservation must move on, that pacers are a part of railway history and so deserve to be preserved. They are also cheap to run, which in this age of austerity and massive inflation is important. But critics argue that they are still too modern for heritage lines and that the trains are unpopular and might discourage people from going to a preserved railway if they go and find there are pacers running.

This has been the case for the Wensleydale Railway, which used to run steam trains a few years ago. But due to increased running costs they now mostly just run pacers, and have received quite a few negative reviews on TripAdvisor (See pics below). However, some people said they did enjoy riding the pacer units, so it’s not all bad.

WENSLEYDALE RAILWAY: All You Need to Know BEFORE You Go (with Photos)

www.tripadvisor.co.uk

But there actually quite a lot of pacer fans out there, and I’ve watched videos on YouTube of pacers running on preserved lines and plenty of people riding on them, and appearing to enjoy the ride too. Some people do enjoy the bouncy ride and loud engines. I (as some of you know) personally love them, especially the 142’s, but I can see why a lot of people don’t like them. They are like the marmite of trains.

Pacers (and other trains from the 70’s/80’s) kind of fall into a no man’s land. A bit too old to still run on the national rail network, but still a bit too modern to be running on heritage lines alongside 1st gen DMU’s and steam trains. Maybe in 10-20 years time they will feel a bit more “vintage”. Painting them in old liveries (which many heritage railways have done) and restoring the original interior (bus bench seating) would increase the heritage feel.

So what’s your thoughts on heritage railways running pacers? - do you like it, do you think they should only run on special days (eg DMU galas) or do you think they have no place on any railways at all and they all should just be sent to the scrapyard?

Definitely yes they should run, however there does need to be an element of care in when and where they are operated. They need to be very much styled as preserving a piece of history, and not just run because they happen to be cheap and cheerful.

There’s other unit classes which I’d like - or more to the point prefer - to see fulfilling a similar function, not least the class 205 and 207 units, who did well in preservation when first withdrawn but their usage seems to have declined considerably over time.

 

[stuu]

But where do you expect them to go for the next 25 years? To sit in a scrap yard slowly seizing up and rusting away so they’re a mammoth task to get running again?

A fair point!

However, the point of a heritage railway is the heritage, a broadly contemporary experience is not the point, IMHO

 

[43096]

A fair point!

However, the point of a heritage railway is the heritage, a broadly contemporary experience is not the point, IMHO

So how are you defining heritage? Because different people have different ideas.

 

[mjc]

A fair point!

However, the point of a heritage railway is the heritage, a broadly contemporary experience is not the point, IMHO

But the point is if you don’t preserve modern stuff it won’t be there to be heritage in the future…the science museum in Manchester has computers of similar vintage to the Pacers on display, some people may think it’s not worthy but unless museums save that stuff not it’ll all be in a skip and nothing for us to look back on in our dotage…

 

[Pacerboy1000]

I know they’re not comfortable, but they are cheap to operate. Especially with the cost to live in going up. It’s almost essential for small heritage railways and even the big ones. To use them.

 

[43096]

I know they’re not comfortable, but they are cheap to operate. Especially with the cost to live in going up. It’s almost essential for small heritage railways and even the big ones. To use them.

It's only worth doing if there's enough people buying tickets to ride them. The railways will also need to weigh up the cost of repeat business not returning: there may be some who turn up, find its a Pacer and say "never again".