Pacers have a future.

[yorksrob]

That's it - would a Pacer be more use to people of Ramsbottom than a heritage line. For some, yes. For others, no.

On a growing railway, we don't currently have sufficient slack to allow over a hundred DMUs to be withdrawn. We also lack the engines and security to invest in a new fleet of DMUs. Yes, we are electrifying some lines (mainly Intercity ones where Pacers are few and far between) which will help with cascades, but we might as well get used to Pacers running around in the 2020s.

Well, that's true. I think the current ideas are for something more integrated with the heritage railway rather than outright takeover, which I think would be easier for the ELR as it's relatively self contained, rather than being re-opened as part of a through route.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

That's it - would a Pacer be more use to people of Ramsbottom than a heritage line. For some, yes. For others, no.

On a growing railway, we don't currently have sufficient slack to allow over a hundred DMUs to be withdrawn. We also lack the engines and security to invest in a new fleet of DMUs. Yes, we are electrifying some lines (mainly Intercity ones where Pacers are few and far between) which will help with cascades, but we might as well get used to Pacers running around in the 2020s.

I notice the settlement of Ramsbottom on the East Lancashire Railway was used as an example, which of course does not have a regular direct bus service to Manchester (but an excellent set of bus services to Bury). However, let us look at the northern terminal railway station of the East Lancashire Railway...that of Rawtenstall. This is even further removed from Manchester, but what it does possess is the X43 "Lancashire Witch" double-deck bus service (Nelson-Burnley-Rawtenstall-Manchester) which uses the motorway from Rawtenstall non-stop until it reaches the Prestwich area. This runs to a 15-minute timetable sequence, with the first service from Rawtenstall to Manchester leaving at 0527. During peak periods, the journey takes just over an hour and the terminus is just outside Chorlton Street coach station in the inner-core of the city centre of Manchester.

NOW...let us compare the modes of travel. Transdev provide modern double-deck buses with high-backed coach-style seating with good quality upholstery. What can Newton Heath offer from their fleet of Class 142 Pacers (remembering that Pacers are the subject of this thread) that can remotely offer the same amount of passenger comfort over a journey of this length.

I would be pleased to see someone come up with a pricing structure of a East Lancashire Railway "Pacer" commuter service from Rawtenstall to Manchester that would persuade the regular "Lancashire Witch" travelling clientèle to return in droves to the Pacer-run rail service, once they have had the opportunity to see the season ticket prices that are charged by the operators of the X43 "Lancashire Witch" bus service.....

 

[yorksrob]

I would be pleased to see someone come up with a pricing structure of a East Lancashire Railway "Pacer" commuter service from Rawtenstall to Manchester that would persuade the regular "Lancashire Witch" travelling clientèle to return in droves to the Pacer-run rail service, once they have had the opportunity to see the season ticket prices that are charged by the operators of the X43 "Lancashire Witch" bus service.....

Well, if Modern Railways is anything to go by, they could shortly be transformed into the pride of the fleet

 

[Surreyman]

Well, if Modern Railways is anything to go by, they could shortly be transformed into the pride of the fleet

You pays yer Money, You takes yer Choice!

 

[tbtc]

What can Newton Heath offer from their fleet of Class 142 Pacers (remembering that Pacers are the subject of this thread) that can remotely offer the same amount of passenger comfort over a journey of this length

Look at the pictures at the start of this thread - the images look a little more upmarket than today's offering.

 

[northwichcat]

That's it - would a Pacer be more use to people of Ramsbottom than a heritage line. For some, yes. For others, no.

NOW...let us compare the modes of travel. Transdev provide modern double-deck buses with high-backed coach-style seating with good quality upholstery. What can Newton Heath offer from their fleet of Class 142 Pacers (remembering that Pacers are the subject of this thread) that can remotely offer the same amount of passenger comfort over a journey of this length.

Note here without building new lines or turning the Bury Metrolink line back to heavy rail there will not be any Rawtenstall-Manchester Pacer service (or any other type of standard DMU service.) It would either be a Rawtenstall-Manchester tram-train or a Rawtenstall-Bury train with a Metrolink connection for Manchester.

 

[Buttsy]

Note here without building new lines or turning the Bury Metrolink line back to heavy rail there will not be any Rawtenstall-Manchester Pacer service (or any other type of standard DMU service.) It would either be a Rawtenstall-Manchester tram-train or a Rawtenstall-Bury train with a Metrolink connection for Manchester.

I don't see that as there is a clear (albeit longer) route into Manchester. Rawtenstall - Bury Bolton Street - Heywood - Castleton south curve - Middleton - Moston - Manchester Victoria and it's in situ at present.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

... And still cleared for passenger use, several railtours use it a year and many locos use it to get access to the ELR for gala gatherings etc. It's certainly available for use..

 

[tbtc]

I don't see that as there is a clear (albeit longer) route into Manchester. Rawtenstall - Bury Bolton Street - Heywood - Castleton south curve - Middleton - Moston - Manchester Victoria and it's in situ at present.

... And still cleared for passenger use, several railtours use it a year and many locos use it to get access to the ELR for gala gatherings etc. It's certainly available for use..

...and presumably plenty paths into the eastern end of Manchester Victoria (only four trains an hour at the moment - a lot fewer than the number that use the western end, so scope for some to be extended through Victoria to Ramsbottom etc and not taking up platform space at Victoria)?

 

[rebmcr]

...and presumably plenty paths into the eastern end of Manchester Victoria (only four trains an hour at the moment - a lot fewer than the number that use the western end, so scope for some to be extended through Victoria to Ramsbottom etc and not taking up platform space at Victoria)?

By the time it would manage to get established, Victoria will be a LOT busier at both ends.

 

[Greybeard33]

Note here without building new lines or turning the Bury Metrolink line back to heavy rail there will not be any Rawtenstall-Manchester Pacer service (or any other type of standard DMU service.) It would either be a Rawtenstall-Manchester tram-train or a Rawtenstall-Bury train with a Metrolink connection for Manchester.

I don't see that as there is a clear (albeit longer) route into Manchester. Rawtenstall - Bury Bolton Street - Heywood - Castleton south curve - Middleton - Moston - Manchester Victoria and it's in situ at present.

... And still cleared for passenger use, several railtours use it a year and many locos use it to get access to the ELR for gala gatherings etc. It's certainly available for use..

...and presumably plenty paths into the eastern end of Manchester Victoria (only four trains an hour at the moment - a lot fewer than the number that use the western end, so scope for some to be extended through Victoria to Ramsbottom etc and not taking up platform space at Victoria)?

By the time it would manage to get established, Victoria will be a LOT busier at both ends.

Options 1-3 considered in the TfGM study were for a TOC to operate a service from Rawtenstall to Victoria via Castleton, using "modern" DMUs (in this context I presume "modern" includes Pacers). Option 4, which had a marginally less bad BCR (0.25), was for the ELR itself to operate a shuttle between Rawtenstall and Castleton using heritage rolling stock. In the latter case, Manchester passengers would either have to walk between Bury Bolton Street and Bury Interchange, or change to Caldervale services at Castleton.

I understand the ORR normally imposes a 25mph speed limit on heritage lines. Anyone know what would be involved in getting it raised for commuter operations?

 

[northwichcat]

I understand the ORR normally imposes a 25mph speed limit on heritage lines. Anyone know what would be involved in getting it raised for commuter operations?

There's a 20mph speed limit on the Leftwich viaduct. Network Rail said it can be raised to 50mph with no additional work for all passenger trains except Pacers - that option wasn't taken up as the operator doesn't want to make the route Pacer free.

Isn't 25mph just the standard speed limit implemented where the train used doesn't have all the paperwork completed for full clearance?

 

[WatcherZero]

Options 1-3 considered in the TfGM study were for a TOC to operate a service from Rawtenstall to Victoria via Castleton, using "modern" DMUs (in this context I presume "modern" includes Pacers). Option 4, which had a marginally less bad BCR (0.25), was for the ELR itself to operate a shuttle between Rawtenstall and Castleton using heritage rolling stock. In the latter case, Manchester passengers would either have to walk between Bury Bolton Street and Bury Interchange, or change to Caldervale services at Castleton.

I understand the ORR normally imposes a 25mph speed limit on heritage lines. Anyone know what would be involved in getting it raised for commuter operations?

An upgrade of the signalling, Staff (volunteer) qualifications and formal track inspection and maintenence procedures and record keeping were mentioned.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

There's a 20mph speed limit on the Leftwich viaduct. Network Rail said it can be raised to 50mph with no additional work for all passenger trains except Pacers - that option wasn't taken up as the operator doesn't want to make the route Pacer free.

For a moment, I had "mind-boggling" visions of a Rawtenstall to Manchester Victoria service being considered for onward route extension with your mention of Leftwich viaduct and wondered where this extended service would proceed to...

 

[northwichcat]

For a moment, I had "mind-boggling" visions of a Rawtenstall to Manchester Victoria service being considered for onward route extension with your mention of Leftwich viaduct and wondered where this extended service would proceed to...

I was trying to make the point that there may be no physical track work required to raise the speed limit for certain types of rolling stock by giving an example of one place where I know that is the case.

Although with paths at a premium between Stockport and Piccadilly it looks likely that if the proposed extra Greenbank-Stockport goes ahead and the proposed Stockport-Denton-Victoria service also goes then the two would be joined up. So join on a service that has no firm proposal of Victoria-Rawtenstall and you'd have a through service with one end very close to the end of the Leftwich viaduct.

 

[swissrailpassion]

Roger's article showed a compliant pacer with seating for just 75 people. This makes them uneconomic as they reduce capacity. 4 car sets would have to be run to provide an improvement for overcrowded lines. (Most lines in fact)

 

[317666]

Would it be possible to remove the toilets completely and use them on suburban or shuttle services which don't really need on-train toilets? That way the capacity loss wouldn't be nearly as bad.

 

[northwichcat]

Would it be possible to remove the toilets completely and use them on suburban or shuttle services which don't really need on-train toilets? That way the capacity loss wouldn't be nearly as bad.

Like has been said before and will be said again that would require Pacers to be introduced to additional franchises. London Overground and London Midland would be the best options to find such suitable routes for them.

 

[Wolfie]

Like has been said before and will be said again that would require Pacers to be introduced to additional franchises. London Overground and London Midland would be the best options to find such suitable routes for them.

my bold

They will be turned into razor blades long before they are let anywhere near Boris' trainset!

Anyway, given that London Overground is a TfL rather than a DafT franchise I assume the latter have zero say over the rolling stock....

 

[northwichcat]

my bold

They will be turned into razor blades long before they are let anywhere near Boris' trainset!

Anyway, given that London Overground is a TfL rather than a DafT franchise I assume the latter have zero say over the rolling stock....

I know it's very unlikely but if people keep saying Pacers can just have their toilets removed and go to Metro services they're going to have to come up with alternative Metro routes they can be used on if new DMUs and London Overground are both not options on the table. Most of the unelectrified Metro style services are in the West Midlands and London areas.

 

[Wolfie]

I know it's very unlikely but if people keep saying Pacers can just have their toilets removed and go to Metro services they're going to have to come up with alternative Metro routes they can be used on if new DMUs and London Overground are both not options on the table. Most of the unelectrified Metro style services are in the West Midlands and London areas.

In principle you are right. However, given that the GOBLIN line user group are still demanding major improvements (see link below) I think that they would burn Boris at the stake were he daft enough to agree to your suggestion.

http://www.barking-gospeloak.org.uk/
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Oh, and I seriously doubt that London Chiltern commuters would be any more accepting.....

 

[northwichcat]

http://www.barking-gospeloak.org.uk/

Oh I'm sure Pacers can be used to meet their wish for additional carriages. How about the 10 x 3 car 144s to replace the 8 x 2 car 172s?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Oh I'm sure Pacers can be used to meet their wish for additional carriages. How about the 10 x 3 car 144s to replace the 8 x 2 car 172s?

Hey there, stop pandering to the wishes of those "Southern" forum members, by offering the "Sunday-Best" class 144 Pacers.

Let then have all the ex-Merseyrail Class 142 Pacers...

Remember the humerous book "Fifty ways to kill a slug"....a pity that no-one came up with one called "Fifty ways to scrap a Pacer.".....:roll:

 

[185]

Remember the humerous book "Fifty ways to kill a slug"....a pity that no-one came up with one called "Fifty ways to scrap a Pacer.".....:roll:

Coming soon.
It's dark.
It's dirty.
It's


fifty shades of Pacer :cry:

 

[northwichcat]

Hey there, stop pandering to the wishes of those "Southern" forum members, by offering the "Sunday-Best" class 144 Pacers.

Let then have all the ex-Merseyrail Class 142 Pacers...

Oh they can have them for other routes. How about as a Bubble car replacement on the short Princes Risborough to Aylesbury line for one use? Anyone complaining about the current train being old will soon think again!

The 3 car 144s seemed to tick every box with LO though:
* More capacity than 2 car 172s.
* Replaces toilet-less trains so the toilet can go without being missed.
* More of a metro style service than many Northern routes.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Oh they can have them for other routes. How about as a Bubble car replacement on the short Princes Risborough to Aylesbury line for one use? Anyone complaining about the current train being old will soon think again!

The 3 car 144s seemed to tick every box with LO though:
* More capacity than 2 car 172s.
* Replaces toilet-less trains so the toilet can go without being missed.
* More of a metro style service than many Northern routes.

Im not sure they do have more capacity you know...

 

[tbtc]

Im not sure they do have more capacity you know...

Even if they do have more capacity (?) you'd have to take out a few seats to fit a "universal" toilet (since the whole point of this thread is about post-2019 operation)

 

[jopsuk]

Im not sure they do have more capacity you know...

As far as I can find, the LO 172s are quoted as seating 120 passengers, 144s as 195?

 

[Surreyman]

Roger's article showed a compliant pacer with seating for just 75 people. This makes them uneconomic as they reduce capacity. 4 car sets would have to be run to provide an improvement for overcrowded lines. (Most lines in fact)

I am assuming that post 2020, the 30 Pacers in South Wales + the 8 with FGW would(having been modified)be transferred to what is currently Northern, where they would mainly be operated in service as 4 car units with existing Pacers, thereby providing extra capacity (@ 300 seats)
Ditto some 150s, 156s and 170s from various sources plus a few displaced by Northern Electrification.
Roger Ford makes the point that the low leasing costs of Pacers would in fact make it uneconomic to replace them with new build.

 

[Haydn1971]

Roger Ford makes the point that the low leasing costs of Pacers would in fact make it uneconomic to replace them with new build.

I'm sure an open carriage would be cheaper than new build - that doesn't make it acceptable to use open carriages, nor does it make it acceptable to keep these truly awful Pacer units - even if they were refurbished