Pacers have a future.

[Manchester77]

As TfGM hates trains so much I am surprised they haven't coverted every line possible to either Metrolink or Tram Trains, I am not a Tram lover (obviously) and they have a place but to destroy the Railway network and lose peoples jobs is hardly something I would promote.

Is that why they are considering bidding for the northern franchise?

Just because they have converted three railway lines to metrolink control doesn't mean they hate heavy rail.
Before metrolink the altrincham line operated 1957 built 304s. Post metrolink the line sees a 6 minute frequency, modern trams and better connectivity to both of manchester major railway stations as well as city centre amenities and suburban manchester. same with the bury line and the Oldham and Rochdale line has been transformed by metrolink. Insiders on SCC have said that from what they could tell if the line had stayed heavy rail it would have been closed. now it offers a modern convinient way to travel and once TMS becomes active a 6 minute frequency will operate to Shaw and a 12 minute frequency will operate to Rochdale.

 

[northwichcat]

Before metrolink the altrincham line operated 1957 built 304s.

There were also some (at the time) very modern class 150s originating from Chester and running express services between Altrincham and Manchester.

The EMUs on the Altrincham line would almost certainly have been replaced around 1993-1994 when all the other 1st gen EMUs in the Manchester area were.

The EMUs at the time might have been old but doubled up on cricket/football match days they provided a lot of capacity to quickly get fans home. None of the ridiculous single T68s turning up in the Altrincham direction after a match on a Saturday evening with only room for about another 20 standees to board.

Insiders on SCC have said that from what they could tell if the line had stayed heavy rail it would have been closed. now it offers a modern convinient way to travel and once TMS becomes active a 6 minute frequency will operate to Shaw and a 12 minute frequency will operate to Rochdale.

In the same way that the Penistone and Settle-Carlisle lines were 'about to be closed'?

As we know shutting down a train service involves an expensive long legal process making it much cheaper to run a token service than to formally close down a National Rail line as was done with Stockport-Stalybridge or Helsby-Ellesmere Port.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I don't see how you're supposed to diagram mainline trains when you have trams arriving at unpredictable times. I could see it working if the tram part had it's own dedicated track (basically a branch without signalling) but that's not the case with central Manchester.

In theory the trams run to a timetable. In practice the drivers are allowed to run up to 2 minutes early or late.

What I imagine for tram-trains we'll see is a long stop timetabled at the switch over point. So using a potential example for the Mid-Cheshire line.

Manchester Victoria d: 14:00
Navigation Road a: 14:30
Navigation Road d: 14:34
Northwich a: 15:00

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Is that why they are considering bidding for the northern franchise?

Just because they have converted three railway lines to metrolink control doesn't mean they hate heavy rail.
Before metrolink the altrincham line operated 1957 built 304s. Post metrolink the line sees a 6 minute frequency, modern trams and better connectivity to both of manchester major railway stations as well as city centre amenities and suburban manchester. same with the bury line and the Oldham and Rochdale line has been transformed by metrolink. Insiders on SCC have said that from what they could tell if the line had stayed heavy rail it would have been closed. now it offers a modern convinient way to travel and once TMS becomes active a 6 minute frequency will operate to Shaw and a 12 minute frequency will operate to Rochdale.

from what some friends who live on the old Oldham Loop route via Hollinwood they never wanted it in the first place and the many years I lived there not many people did, the tram maybe more frequent however it is also smaller, more expensive and people who used to be able to take their Bicycle onto the train can no longer do so. Trams are good in some areas but NOT all.

 

[Greybeard33]

I don't see how you're supposed to diagram mainline trains when you have trams arriving at unpredictable times. I could see it working if the tram part had it's own dedicated track (basically a branch without signalling) but that's not the case with central Manchester.

I presume NR would allocate the tram-trains a lower priority class than the mainline trains. If a tram-train misses its path on to the main line, or a preceding express is running late, the tram-train will just have to wait at the junction until it can be slotted in without delaying heavy rail services.

Whilst page 2 of the TfGM response to the main document states...."Tram-train offers the prospect of creating a similar transformation of several more suburban rail lines in Greater Manchester"...., it does not name any of these stated rail lines, in that letter from TfGM to Network Rail dated 30th April 2012.

Nearly a year now has elapsed since the TfGM submission was sent in that letter. Is there anything new to report in this interim period, not just regarding TfGM but from the other large neighbouring public authority transport bodies, other what is known to be the case in South Yorkshire and the pre-existing eventual tram-train trials ?

I doubt if we will hear much more about tram-train proposals, in Greater Manchester or elsewhere, before 2017, by which time the S Yorkshire pilot should have been up and running for two years and proved the feasibility, or otherwise, of the concept for the UK network.

Unless, of course, the detailed design or implementation of the pilot throws up any technical or commercial show-stoppers before then.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

This is just a general query, when on heavy rail metals, do tram-trains require power from OHLE or do they also convey diesel engines which can be used away from electric supply?

... Insiders on SCC have said that from what they could tell if the line had stayed heavy rail it would have been closed. now it offers a modern convinient way to travel and once TMS becomes active a 6 minute frequency will operate to Shaw and a 12 minute frequency will operate to Rochdale.

The Oldham loop would have been closed? On what basis? There were always really good passenger numbers on the line and I doubt there would have been any easy or justifiable way to close a well-patronised railway line through a town of over 100,000 people.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

This is just a general query, when on heavy rail metals, do tram-trains require power from OHLE or do they also convey diesel engines which can be used away from electric supply?



The Oldham loop would have been closed? On what basis? There were always really good passenger numbers on the line and I doubt there would have been any easy or justifiable way to close a well-patronised railway line through a town of over 100,000 people.

From what some of the old CTM's at my depot said the only lines that got taken over were the ones that actually had high passenger numbers from what the older hands were telling me Altrincham was always busy and I know the Oldham loop was well used seems to me that TfGM like to cherry pick away from the railway (but that wouldn't surprise me) more coppers for the councillors/advisors/Managing directors to pocket (not that I am at all cynical) lol

 

[Greybeard33]

This is just a general query, when on heavy rail metals, do tram-trains require power from OHLE or do they also convey diesel engines which can be used away from electric supply?

The Sheffield-Rotherham pilot includes installation of 600V DC OHLE on the NR line. Some tram-trains in service in other countries are dual voltage, using 600V DC on the tram lines and high voltage AC on the heavy rail lines. There are also bi-mode types with roof-mounted diesel engines, although these do not comply with current EU emissions requirements and so were rejected for the UK pilot (see my previous post #106).

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Thanks. I was just wondering in that case how the likes of jcollins's suggestions of tram-trains to Rawtenstall would work, as I cannot imagine OHLE-ing the ELR would return a half-decent C:BR, and I don't think the ELRPS would be super-keen for electrification either. Of course a commuter service to Manchester would be great, but I don't think the ruination of the atmosphere etc they have spent decades creating would be a worthy sacrifice, especially if work would limit the use of the engines they've spent millions of ponds and thousands of man-hours restoring.

 

[yorksrob]

From what some of the old CTM's at my depot said the only lines that got taken over were the ones that actually had high passenger numbers from what the older hands were telling me Altrincham was always busy and I know the Oldham loop was well used seems to me that TfGM like to cherry pick away from the railway (but that wouldn't surprise me) more coppers for the councillors/advisors/Managing directors to pocket (not that I am at all cynical) lol

Not cynical at all. This is always a danger whenever you move away from a unified National passenger railway network.

 

[WatcherZero]

Thanks. I was just wondering in that case how the likes of jcollins's suggestions of tram-trains to Rawtenstall would work, as I cannot imagine OHLE-ing the ELR would return a half-decent C:BR, and I don't think the ELRPS would be super-keen for electrification either. Of course a commuter service to Manchester would be great, but I don't think the ruination of the atmosphere etc they have spent decades creating would be a worthy sacrifice, especially if work would limit the use of the engines they've spent millions of ponds and thousands of man-hours restoring.

Just been a lengthy feasability study done, marginal business case for diesel services either from normal or heritage stock (though local councils will probably continue to push for it), nevermind enough potential riders to actually recoup the cost of electrification.

 

[Greybeard33]

Just been a lengthy feasability study done, marginal business case for diesel services either from normal or heritage stock (though local councils will probably continue to push for it), nevermind enough potential riders to actually recoup the cost of electrification.

See http://www.transportforgreatermanchestercommittee.gov.uk/downloads/file/4389/item_13_east_lancs_and_west_rochdale_area_study. None of the ELR options were considered financially viable, with BCRs of only 0.12 - 0.25 and a requirement for an on-going operating subsidy of £1.82m - £3.66m p.a. Tram-trains and electrification were not even considered. The study recommended instead bus priority measures and improved Metrolink P&R facilities.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

There are heritage railways of long standing that are tourist attractions in their own right and bring visitors into the towns where they are situated. Yet we are starting to see threads on this forum with postings that recommend the use of these heritage railways as normal public transport routes and all the steam and diesel locomotive stocks, museum facilities and railway workshops associated with the heritage railway would no longer have the same raison d'etre that is the case with a functional heritage railway.

We already have the case of the East Lancashire Railway being cited upon this thread and the case of the North York Moors Railway as part of a reinstated line from Malton to Whitby upon another thread very recently. Is Britain in such a parlous state that anything concerned with historical connection and preservation is now not worthy of consideration ? Shall we see demands for the withdrawal of all narrow-boats from the canal systems of Britain and their replacements with fast modern fly-shuttle motorised boats?

Yet amongst all this hue and cry, we still see the occasional strong posting representations that arcane modes of travel such as Class 142 Pacers being given upgrade face lifts that will see them running long after I am placed in the mausoleum that will be erected in the graveyard of the parish church in Prestbury..hock:

Should the Keighley and Worth Valley Railway, the Severn Valley Railway and the Bluebell Line start to feel worried that they will be next on this "hit-list" of ideas floated on RailUK forums ?.....

 

[The Ham]

There are heritage railways of long standing that are tourist attractions in their own right and bring visitors into the towns where they are situated. Yet we are starting to see threads on this forum with postings that recommend the use of these heritage railways as normal public transport routes and all the steam and diesel locomotive stocks, museum facilities and railway workshops associated with the heritage railway would no longer have the same raison d'etre that is the case with a functional heritage railway.

We already have the case of the East Lancashire Railway being cited upon this thread and the case of the North York Moors Railway as part of a reinstated line from Malton to Whitby upon another thread very recently. Is Britain in such a parlous state that anything concerned with historical connection and preservation is now not worthy of consideration ? Shall we see demands for the withdrawal of all longboats from the canal systems of Britain and their replacements with fast modern fly-shuttle motorised boats?

Yet amongst all this hue and cry, we still see the occasional strong posting representations that arcane modes of travel such as Class 142 Pacers being given upgrade face lifts that will see them running long after I am placed in the mausoleum that will be erected in the graveyard of the parish church in Prestbury..hock:

Should the Keighley and Worth Valley Railway, the Severn Valley Railway and the Bluebell Line start to feel worried that they will be next on this "hit-list" of ideas floated on RailUK forums ?.....

I agree that we need to retain our heritage although I also think that we need to allow for progress. There are heritage lines which, whilst still maintaining their heritage stock are wanting to ALSO run commercial services to act as public transport for the area that they serve. Given these tend to be more rural areas there is plenty of capacity on their tracks to do so.

This often doesn't go against the founders of the heritage lines, as they wanted to retain the line and it was more a case of the easiest stock that they could get was steam which they also realised would also attract more people to the line.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I agree that we need to retain our heritage although I also think that we need to allow for progress. There are heritage lines which, whilst still maintaining their heritage stock are wanting to ALSO run commercial services to act as public transport for the area that they serve. Given these tend to be more rural areas there is plenty of capacity on their tracks to do so.

Granted, but some of the emphasis on forums different to RailUK Forums has been placed on outright external takeover of service patters of these heritage railways....not just the heritage railways extending their pre-existing service provision. Perhaps in rural situations, one might view matters rather differently to those that are within the all-reaching embraces of large PTE.

Perhaps the more gentlemanly and considered-thinking of those making this debate do in fact frequent RailUK Forums rather than those forums where much "hot air" and "whiffle and piffle" seem to be the order of the day....:roll:

 

[tbtc]

Is Britain in such a parlous state that anything concerned with historical connection and preservation is now not worthy of consideration ?

I'm sure that there are some people in Ramsbottom content to have a tourist attraction in their town.

But maybe there are also some people who'd prefer a direct rail service into Manchester? It wouldn't be so quaint but it may improve their chance of accessing employment.

 

[YorkshireBear]

If a heritage line has a good case for reopening for its original purpose then it should be. Surely this was the hope of the founders of the preservation of that route? If someone showed me that reopening the KWVR to commuter services would be a good idea and useful i would support it. Should this move stop me from volunteering there i would be upset don't get me wrong, but i would offer my services elsewhere and accept that my part in the railway helped it return to its original purpose. To serve the community.

 

[tom1649]

The EMUs on the Altrincham line would almost certainly have been replaced around 1993-1994 when all the other 1st gen EMUs in the Manchester area were.

Just a small correction, the last 1st gen EMUs in the Manchester area were retired in 1999-2000 when the last 305s and 309s went. 304s were indeed gone by around 1995 though.

 

[Oswyntail]

... Shall we see demands for the withdrawal of all longboats from the canal systems of Britain ...

In the interests of accuracy, I would suggest you actually mean "narrow boats". Longboats are generally rowed by up to eight men and used as transport from larger ships. Of course, you could have meant "longships", but I would be in favour of banning marauding Scandinavians from using the canal system to aid their rape and pillage.

 

[Sun Chariot]

...you could have meant "longships", but I would be in favour of banning marauding Scandinavians from using the canal system to aid their rape and pillage.

Brilliant! And, of course, archeological digs have proven that those Norse longships were fitted out with the world's first flat-pack furniture. Funny how the Viking warcry "I kill ya!" (in a dodgy Swedish accent) has corrupted over the centuries to become "Ikea"...

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

If a heritage line has a good case for reopening for its original purpose then it should be. Surely this was the hope of the founders of the preservation of that route? If someone showed me that reopening the KWVR to commuter services would be a good idea and useful i would support it. Should this move stop me from volunteering there i would be upset don't get me wrong, but I would offer my services elsewhere and accept that my part in the railway helped it return to its original purpose. To serve the community.

Spoken from the heart as only a true heritage volunteer stalwart ...and Sheffield Wednesday supporter...could commit to writing.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

In the interests of accuracy, I would suggest you actually mean "narrow boats". Longboats are generally rowed by up to eight men and used as transport from larger ships. Of course, you could have meant "longships", but I would be in favour of banning marauding Scandinavians from using the canal system to aid their rape and pillage.

One at times does have to enter such "poetic licence" into postings to see if the viewing audience are reading postings in full ... or are still "half-asleep"...

Of course, I would have expected the keener-eyed forum members to have seen this "entry" for what it was....and you did not let me down in that respect. I am pleased to have introduced "mind-boggling" onto this thread on a quiet Sunday afternoon. Yes indeed, the Viking hordes were the first heritage transport enthusiasts who were not afraid of "hard graft" when times demanded this to be the case.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'm sure that there are some people in Ramsbottom content to have a tourist attraction in their town.

But maybe there are also some people who'd prefer a direct rail service into Manchester? It wouldn't be so quaint but it may improve their chance of accessing employment.

I am sure that some of the more insular-minded of Ramsbottom folk think that Bury is where the world ends and is where the staple diet of "proper" Bury black puddings can be purchased from the renowned Bury market and are also more concerned to be going in the opposite direction to Rawtenstall for their daily dosage of herbal beverages at Mr Fitzpatrick's world renowned establishment.

Incidentally, how much do you envisage weekly rail return tickets from Ramsbottom to Manchester would cost. Is Bury now so devoid of employment opportunities that Manchester is seen as the nearest large employment market ? There are many job seekers in Manchester itself without a job, without hordes of the "tripe and black-pudding brigade" from Ramsbottom descending upon Manchester to compete against them in the job market.

Most unlike you to miss out on the obvious chance to refer to a "Ramsbottom to Manchester Airport" rail service...

 

[tbtc]

how much do you envisage weekly rail return tickets from Ramsbottom to Manchester would cost. Is Bury now so devoid of employment opportunities that Manchester is seen as the nearest large employment market ? There are many job seekers in Manchester itself without a job, without hordes of the "tripe and black-pudding brigade" from Ramsbottom descending upon Manchester to compete against them in the job market

I've no idea Paul, I'm just aware that some people probably want their town to have more than just a heritage line (see also the threads on here where people have suggested that the Cornish branches are turned over to steam operation - as if Cornwall is nothing but a theme park for their pleasure).

I'm cynical about most reopenings (like the fanciful SELRAP), and I'm not convinced about this one either, but reopenings should be considered on their own merits (and not just because the preserved railway is a nice place for outsiders to come and visit).

Anyhow, none of this has anything to do with Pacers, which I know is one of your favourite topics.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Spoken from the heart as only a true heritage volunteer stalwart ...and Sheffield Wednesday supporter...could commit to writing.

Thank you paul, not sure how SWFC supporting comes into but i take the compliment!!!!

 

[MidnightFlyer]

... (see also the threads on here where people have suggested that the Cornish branches are turned over to steam operation - as if Cornwall is nothing but a theme park for their pleasure).

Any links to them? Some things never cease to amaze me...

 

[tbtc]

Any links to them? Some things never cease to amaze me...

I remember it on one of the IEP threads - RAGNARØKR seemed to want to turn Cornwall into some kind of theme park

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Anyhow, none of this has anything to do with Pacers, which I know is one of your favourite topics.

I would agree with the need to bring this thread back on line. So who fancies a regular daily commuting trip from Ramsbottom to Manchester Victoria which entails being taken there and back by the Class 142 Pacers that are felt to be Newton Heath's finest offerings and are in line with the spirit of the actual title of this thread.

 

[D365]

Any links to them? Some things never cease to amaze me...

I remember it on one of the IEP threads - RAGNARØKR seemed to want to turn Cornwall into some kind of theme park

Speak of the devil, where's he gone :P

 

[MattRobinson]

There are heritage railways of long standing that are tourist attractions in their own right and bring visitors into the towns where they are situated. Yet we are starting to see threads on this forum with postings that recommend the use of these heritage railways as normal public transport routes and all the steam and diesel locomotive stocks, museum facilities and railway workshops associated with the heritage railway would no longer have the same raison d'etre that is the case with a functional heritage railway.

We already have the case of the East Lancashire Railway being cited upon this thread and the case of the North York Moors Railway as part of a reinstated line from Malton to Whitby upon another thread very recently. Is Britain in such a parlous state that anything concerned with historical connection and preservation is now not worthy of consideration ? Shall we see demands for the withdrawal of all narrow-boats from the canal systems of Britain and their replacements with fast modern fly-shuttle motorised boats?

Yet amongst all this hue and cry, we still see the occasional strong posting representations that arcane modes of travel such as Class 142 Pacers being given upgrade face lifts that will see them running long after I am placed in the mausoleum that will be erected in the graveyard of the parish church in Prestbury..hock:

Should the Keighley and Worth Valley Railway, the Severn Valley Railway and the Bluebell Line start to feel worried that they will be next on this "hit-list" of ideas floated on RailUK forums ?.....

Hear hear. BTW, there have been feasibility studies of introducing a commuter service on the KWVR, now you come to mention it.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2

 

[tbtc]

Speak of the devil, where's he gone :P

I dunno but I miss his rants about obesity as an excuse for retaining Mk3s

 

[yorksrob]

I would agree with the need to bring this thread back on line. So who fancies a regular daily commuting trip from Ramsbottom to Manchester Victoria which entails being taken there and back by the Class 142 Pacers that are felt to be Newton Heath's finest offerings and are in line with the spirit of the actual title of this thread.

If I lived in Ramsbottom and needed to commute to Manchester (or even Bury) then I would quite happily travel on one of Newton Heath's finest if it avoided me having to run a car or spend hours on a bus.

 

[tbtc]

If I lived in Ramsbottom and needed to commute to Manchester (or even Bury) then I would quite happily travel on one of Newton Heath's finest if it avoided me having to run a car or spend hours on a bus.

That's it - would a Pacer be more use to people of Ramsbottom than a heritage line. For some, yes. For others, no.

On a growing railway, we don't currently have sufficient slack to allow over a hundred DMUs to be withdrawn. We also lack the engines and security to invest in a new fleet of DMUs. Yes, we are electrifying some lines (mainly Intercity ones where Pacers are few and far between) which will help with cascades, but we might as well get used to Pacers running around in the 2020s.