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Pacer replacement

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po8crg

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From the Autumn Statement:

2.203 Northern and TransPennine Express rail franchises – The government will publish the Invitations to Tender for the Northern and TransPennine rail franchises in early 2015, and will specify a substantial package of upgrades including new services and modern trains in order to phase out the outdated Pacer trains.
 
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samuelmorris

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I thought we were generally of the consensus that new rolling stock would be introduced 'higher up' than this - allowing cascades to replace Pacers?
 

Bletchleyite

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Always an off-chance of Siemens.

Neil
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I thought we were generally of the consensus that new rolling stock would be introduced 'higher up' than this - allowing cascades to replace Pacers?

Electrification of TPE will release 185s, but the amount of stock needed is substantial.

Neil
 

northwichcat

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I thought we were generally of the consensus that new rolling stock would be introduced 'higher up' than this - allowing cascades to replace Pacers?

DfT were hoping to use TPE electrification as a way of cascading modern DMUs down to Northern but Network Rail aren't committing to have North TPE wires live before the accessibility deadlines: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=109150
 

GrimsbyPacer

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Pacers will either be replaced by:
1. Pacers which have been modernised like the Porterbrook plan.
2. Vivarail altered London Underground D-Stock to some extent.
3. Casdaded diesels from future electric lines.
4. A new train like Pacers which are cheap, Parry People Movers??
5. Nothing, it says in the printed statement TOCs will be encouraged to replace them.
6. Good new trains like 185s with massive fare hikes.
7. What about foreign built cascaded trains?
 

samuelmorris

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1 - hopefully not, but given my previous remarks about this, with the 142s being axed and the 143/144s representing far smaller individual fleets, some might get this treatment but not many, and if not many, why bother?
2. As laughable as I thought this was at first, it does have quite some merit now, but I'm still not wholly convinced by it, given the speed restrictions and the potential longevity issues.
3. Most likely I think - but as raised earlier, I wonder how many they're actually going to manage for this.
4. Possibly, but hopefully better than the original Pacers, and certainly not PPMs!
5. I don't see this being too likely - they'll be going eventually...
6. Would be nice, but I think this is less likely than #3 as an isolated solution - perhaps a mix of #3 and #6 makes most sense.
7. Possibly, but wouldn't there be loading gauge issues?
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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I would like to see what eventually that concerns the thread matter that will be put into the "Invitation to Tender" when such documents are ready to be sent out. It is far too important to turn this thread into the usual "flights of fancy" or "fantasy postings" that allow forum members to indulge themselves upon.
 

TheWalrus

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I don't think we need any more new DMUs. In the long run I think there is a lot more electrification which could be done in the North and Midlands. In the short run there will be a fair few HSTs displaced by IEP which could be used as shorter sets until more DMUs become available.
 

thenorthern

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Pacers won't be withdrawn for a long time, we have heard about how they will be replaced for years but with Northern Rail or the new Northern Franchise holder already short of stock I can't see them withdrawing any pacers until they have to in 2019.

I think a refurbishment will happen to them in the end rather than withdrawal, hopefully they will remove the annoying toilet that is far too small for anyone.
 

GrimsbyPacer

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http://www.parrypeoplemovers.com/

The Parry People Movers website has some nice trains which look like modern Pacers designed. I think they will be in the running. If Osbourne is true to his word then the DfT will be looking at these options.
 
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Xenophon PCDGS

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I don't think we need any more new DMUs. In the long run I think there is a lot more electrification which could be done in the North and Midlands. In the short run there will be a fair few HSTs displaced by IEP which could be used as shorter sets until more DMUs become available.

To make a play on words, how long is a short run?

Do you accept that the life expectancy of even the most modern of the DMU fleet will still be expired when there still will be unelectrified lines, some of considerable length, that will require something to provide their rail traction.
 

po8crg

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Do you accept that the life expectancy of even the most modern of the DMU fleet will still be expired when there still will be unelectrified lines, some of considerable length, that will require something to provide their rail traction.

There will certainly still be some lines that will never be electrified, and will be in use long after all of the current DMUs (I think the most recent are the 185s) are life-expired. There will need to be some sort of long-term solution for long rural lines that get sub-hourly service frequencies and can never justify electrification. That, however, is hardly the point. In the short term, there are a heck of a lot of other lines that won't be electrified soon. A list of lines that will still be sparkless at the end of CP5, in the North West of England alone:

Cumbrian Coast Line, Carlisle-Barrow-Carnforth
Settle-Carlisle and Settle-Carnforth
Morecambe Branch Line, Lancaster-Heysham
Blackpool South - Kirkham and Wesham (being considered for tram conversion)
East Lancashire Line (Preston-Colne via Blackburn)
Preston-Ormskirk (connects to Merseyrail Northern Line)
Southport-Wigan
Wigan-Kirkby (connects to Merseyrail Northern Line)
Wigan-Manchester via Atherton (being considered for tram-train operation)
Manchester-Rochdale-Todmorden-Burnley (and the Calder Valley connection to Yorkshire)
Cheshire Lines Committee: Liverpool-Warrington-Manchester
Halton Curve and Warrington-Chester-Wrexham
Borderlands Line (Bidston-Wrexham)
North Wales Coast Line (Chester-Shotton-Llandudno-Holyhead)
Mid-Cheshire line (Chester-Stockport)
Chester-Crewe line (being considered for electrification)
Hope Valley Line (Manchester-Sheffield)
Buxton Line (Manchester-Buxton)
Helsby-Ellesmere Port (connects to Merseyrail Wirral Line)

Now, some of these should be done before any non-Pacers are life-expired: extending Merseyrail to Preston and Wigan, the mainline to Chester, the tram conversion of Blackpool South, the tram-train operation of the Atherton line. Whatever they end up doing on Borderlands to bring it into Merseyrail, CLC electrification, etc. All of these are in someone's list to get onto a future CP's programme.

But that's barely half of the lines in a region that is hardly massively rural - and that's at least 15 years in the future just to complete the projects I mentioned. You're going to have a similar story in Yorkshire and in the Midlands - and even less electrification in the SW or Wales. Only in Scotland, with STPR's massive programme, will non-electrics come down to just a few long rural lines (West Highland, Far North, Kyle of Lochalsh, etc).

There's going to be a heck of a lot of middling-use lines (1-2tph semi-rural lines and branch lines) like Southport-Wigan or the lines around Burnley that are not going to get electrified in CP6 or CP7 but which there will be a desire to get them wired up eventually in preference to buying expensive DMUs.

The rural lines can probably be operated by LHCS in a pinch - and there will certainly be freight locos for the long-term (or you can special order some DMUs with half of the end car as a power car; the demand on these lines isn't so high that you need to run a train the maximum length that the platforms will allow to deal with the passenger loadings). It's the semi-rurals where you're going to get very tight when the Sprinters start going out of service.
 

doningtonphil

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I seem to remember being told that Irish Railways ordered new DMUs from CAF but due to the country's money woes they could not afford to run them all, so as a new one was delivered, one that had been in service for a bit got stored in the sidings.

Is that still the case? If so, what would it take to make an Irish vehicle suitable for use on UK railways, is it 'just' a case of swapping the bogies?
 

samuelmorris

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Pacers won't be withdrawn for a long time, we have heard about how they will be replaced for years but with Northern Rail or the new Northern Franchise holder already short of stock I can't see them withdrawing any pacers until they have to in 2019.

I think a refurbishment will happen to them in the end rather than withdrawal, hopefully they will remove the annoying toilet that is far too small for anyone.

That's not far away though in the grand scheme of things - I think the way the electrification project is concerned unless there's a mass order of new diesel rolling stock, everything but the Pacers is going to be going until at least the 2030s, which makes pretty much all 400+ sprinters committed to in excess of 40 years in service. Just replacing the Pacers by the end of the decade is going to be problematic I think - do we know how many of them usually run doubled up? Obviously there are about 140 sets to replace, but not necessarily a requirement for 140 new units - if a 4-car Pacer service run with, e.g. two 142s gets replaced with a single 4-car EMU then we're not replacing units like for like... Not that I see that particular example happening often.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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Pacers won't be withdrawn for a long time, we have heard about how they will be replaced for years but with Northern Rail or the new Northern Franchise holder already short of stock I can't see them withdrawing any pacers until they have to in 2019. I think a refurbishment will happen to them in the end rather than withdrawal, hopefully they will remove the annoying toilet that is far too small for anyone.

Do I take it that you are only referring to the Porterbrook owned units or have I missed a dramatic change of heart by Angel Trains in recent days concerning the Class 142 units.
 

GrimsbyPacer

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I seem to remember being told that Irish Railways ordered new DMUs from CAF but due to the country's money woes they could not afford to run them all, so as a new one was delivered, one that had been in service for a bit got stored in the sidings.

Is that still the case? If so, what would it take to make an Irish vehicle suitable for use on UK railways, is it 'just' a case of swapping the bogies?

Irish trains might be wider. I know an early railbus prototype was converted for use on Northern Ireland railway's Coleraine branch.
So it's easy that way round and it had no bogies.
 

Andyh82

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Probably will be mostly cascaded stock like 150s, but all the government need to do is commission a single medium sized order of some sort of new DMU for Northern.

This wouldn't replace all the pacers, but at least Northern would have something to shout about and customers would at least see some new trains on the network and therefore would be more accepting that something is happening, rather than at the moment when all they see is either nothing happening or the prospect of tired old stock coming in and 'the south' getting all the new stock.
 

Class83

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That's not far away though in the grand scheme of things - I think the way the electrification project is concerned unless there's a mass order of new diesel rolling stock, everything but the Pacers is going to be going until at least the 2030s, which makes pretty much all 400+ sprinters committed to in excess of 40 years in service. Just replacing the Pacers by the end of the decade is going to be problematic I think - do we know how many of them usually run doubled up? Obviously there are about 140 sets to replace, but not necessarily a requirement for 140 new units - if a 4-car Pacer service run with, e.g. two 142s gets replaced with a single 4-car EMU then we're not replacing units like for like... Not that I see that particular example happening often.

By December 2019 we should have Northern (Northwest), TPE (North), Scotrail (EGIP), Scotrail (Express*) and FGW (Thames Valley) freeing up DMUs. Should be enough to see off the 142s. The 144s might need to wait until ATW (Valleys) and EMT (Midland Mainline + maybe some of South Yorks) are done depending on capacity requirements.

In general much of Northern can be replaced on a unit for unit replacement while still increasing capacity. With 15X units being bigger than a Pacer and 170/185 units being larger again which can free a 15X to displace a pacer. The 319s are going to be similar in replacing shorter units.

*170s freed up by HSTs, not electrification, but still helps scrap some pacers.
 

samuelmorris

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Again though, there's 94 142s to get rid of, and if they're being replaced with cascaded DMUs they'll probably be replaced like-for-like - that's a lot of displaced units to find. I'm not opposed to giving the 144s a refurb prior to 2019 and retaining them until the mid 2020s allowing further cascaded or replacement stock to oust them, but I can't see that being a popular move. They will be far less prevalent with all the 142s gone though.
 

TheWalrus

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If we will need new DMUs in the future then would it make more sense to wait until we need them to maximise life for use on lines which won't be electrified for a long time?
 

edwin_m

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If we will need new DMUs in the future then would it make more sense to wait until we need them to maximise life for use on lines which won't be electrified for a long time?

I think it probably does. In ten years time we will have a much better idea of what the electrification programme won't cover, how long the remaining 15x classes will last, and whether technologies such as batteries or fuel cells are good enough to make a difference. Arguably a D78 with a life of 10-15 years would be a good stopgap in the meantime, rather than investing in something new which would last 30-40 years but might be a white elephant well before that.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Irish trains might be wider. I know an early railbus prototype was converted for use on Northern Ireland railway's Coleraine branch.
So it's easy that way round and it had no bogies.

According to Wikipedia a 29000 unit is 2.9m wide and each coach is about 20.4m so a similar length to a 150. However a 150 is only 2.8m wide. A 22000 unit has bodyshells about 23m long and 2.84m wide, whereas the similar length 158 is 2.7m wide. The 165/166 units are wider than 158s at 2.81m, and restricted to routes with more generous gauges for that reason, but the 22000 is wider still.

So it appears that recent Irish stock has been built to take advantage of their larger loading gauge and would not fit on the British network, unlike the older trains which were to BR designs.
 

thenorthern

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Do I take it that you are only referring to the Porterbrook owned units or have I missed a dramatic change of heart by Angel Trains in recent days concerning the Class 142 units.

No they haven't mentioned it but I reckon it will happen in the end. Thats just my view of it though.
 

Hophead

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The quote is explicit on what is expected to happen. The ITTs will ask bidders to detail their plans for Pacer replacement and new stock. Once the tenders have been awarded, there can be orders for new, or refurbished, trains. Only then will it be clear what is planned.
 

samuelmorris

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Go on, I give up. What is running on the network that is anyway remotely like-for-like to a Class 142 Pacer (ignoring its cousins who don't count in this conundrum)...:roll:

What I meant by that was, one unit replaced with one unit - rather than, for instance, replacing two pacers with one new unit, or three pacers with two new units - depending on services they currently operate. By like-for-like, I simply mean for every pacer they withdraw, one additional unit (of whatever they end up going with) would be needed, i.e. 94 replacement units, rather than fewer.
 

WatcherZero

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If we will need new DMUs in the future then would it make more sense to wait until we need them to maximise life for use on lines which won't be electrified for a long time?

New trains take on average 18 months to 3 years to procure so you have to order them before you need them.
 

alexl92

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We need new DMUs now. The pacers are a joke.

The gov/DfT need to put their hands in their pockets and put in an order, preferably with Bombardier (if they are committed to investing in our economy). I don't get these people who talk about HST short sets - they're designed for long distance, high speed running. Switching them to commuter lines or similar may increase comfort for passengers but the reliability of the 43s will nosedive as a result of all the stop-starting - iirc the same happened when the Class 50s (I think) were moved from WCML duties to somewhere else.

The 185s will be useful for years to come but they are only 3-car, can only operate in multiple within their class and there are 51 sets. So when they eventually get cascaded, they'd have to be dedicated to specific routes. It's wouldn't be like the situation Northern in Yorkshire have at the moment where on most of their routes (LDS-Doncaster and Ilkley/Bradford/Skipton aside) they can basically swap any of their 14X/15Xs between services at will and put any combo of the above on these services.
 
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