Pacer replacement

[muz379]

What I meant by that was, one unit replaced with one unit - rather than, for instance, replacing two pacers with one new unit, or three pacers with two new units - depending on services they currently operate. By like-for-like, I simply mean for every pacer they withdraw, one additional unit (of whatever they end up going with) would be needed, i.e. 94 replacement units, rather than fewer.

Id even argue given the scale of the overcrowding problem for the time being until 2019 when the DDA becomes an issue any cascaded stock Northern get should not be used to replace pacers but to be used alongside them . I think in the short to medium turns dedicating some routes like Kirby to Wigan ,Leeds to Huddersfield stopper and Huddersfield to Bradford as a short shuttle and shoving 142's permanently on them might be of benefit to passengers elsewhere when new stock is cascaded .

also put the 3 car 144's on the hud to mcv stopper instead of splitting that service and giving it to TPE

I mean the 319's that Northern are getting aren't going to permanently replace any stock .

Majority of the complaints I receive aren't about the state of the pacers but about overcrowding when a service is running as a single pacer , 150 or 156 when it really needs an additional unit to strengthen .

 

[Chris125]

I don't get these people who talk about HST short sets - they're designed for long distance, high speed running. Switching them to commuter lines or similar may increase comfort for passengers but the reliability of the 43s will nosedive as a result of all the stop-starting - iirc the same happened when the Class 50s (I think) were moved from WCML duties to somewhere else.

I've not come across anyone suggesting their use on commuter-style services, where they'd make sense is freeing up DMUs from longer distance services just as Abellio intend to north of the border.

Chris

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Could 185s be built that would meet the emissions regs that would have the equivalent power, max speed and acceleration of class 158s/159s?

 

[47802]

Could 185s be built that would meet the emissions regs that would have the equivalent power, max speed and acceleration of class 158s/159s?

Why do people come up with stupid comments like this, if a new DMU is to be built then it up to the procurer to come up with a specification and tender possibly after consulting the train manufacturers, then its up the train manufactuer's as to whether they want to bid and propose a solution which meets the spec

In any case 185's are heavy compared to a 158, you want something more like a 172 but of course other manufacturers are available.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Seeing the Class 185 units being discussed on a Pacer replacement thread, is somewhat going from the sublime to the ridiculous...

 

[Bletchleyite]

The Desiro City has an ally body so will be lighter. I'm sure Siemens could build a DMU version.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The Desiro City has an ally body so will be lighter. I'm sure Siemens could build a DMU version.

Can you clarify what an ally body is.

 

[edwin_m]

can you clarify what an ally body is.

nato?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Can you clarify what an ally body is.

Aluminium, rather than the heavier steel of the Class 185.

Neil

 

[GrimsbyPacer]

Why do people come up with stupid comments like this, if a new DMU is to be built then it up to the procurer to come up with a specification and tender possibly after consulting the train manufacturers, then its up the train manufactuer's as to whether they want to bid and propose a solution which meets the spec

In any case 185's are heavy compared to a 158, you want something more like a 172 but of course other manufacturers are available.

There is never a need to insult people for asking any questions.

 

[47802]

There is never a need to insult people for asking any questions.

Oh I don't know stupid questions deserve stupid or sarcastic replies in my book.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Aluminium, rather than the heavier steel of the Class 185.

I most probably run the risk of being censured on all sides, but I must admit that when I first saw the term "Ally body" in this thread, I had a mental vision of the sylph-like figure of Ally McBeal from the TV series from years ago...

And here is me who will be 70 in April..

 

[starrymarkb]

http://www.parrypeoplemovers.com/

The Parry People Movers website has some nice trains which look like modern Pacers designed. I think they will be in the running. If Osbourne is true to his word then the DfT will be looking at these options.

They've been trying to flog those elastic band powered contraptions for some time. I don't think they are really suitable.

 

[NorthernSpirit]

Why not get Bombairder, Plaxton and Optare to work together to create a new lightweight DMU based on a Pacer but fit for the 21st century with bogies fitted instead of single axles.

They'd probably work better than the ripped off Optare Solo with Transit engine Parry People Mover.

 

[GrimsbyPacer]

Why not get Bombairder, Plaxton and Optare to work together to create a new lightweight DMU based on a Pacer but fit for the 21st century with bogies fitted instead of single axles.

They'd probably work better than the ripped off Optare Solo with Transit engine Parry People Mover.

Parry People Movers aren't bad. Look at the class 139's reliabillity! They have designs for a single car with bogies for 120 people. And a two car railbus is planned for the Briery Hill line according to issue 59 of their newsletter. It looks like a modern Pacer.

Personally I think a railbus with a Jacobs bogie fitted in the middle would be a cheap way of making the ride more comfy without wasting money.

 

[Class 170101]

Regardless of what DMU is procured it is still foul of EU 3B standard on emmissions, so I cannot see one being ordered.

Pacers will be scrapped because it has become politically unacceptable to do otherwise even though this may result in short term capacity shortages.

How many Class 170s will Scotrail be displacing between now and 31st December 2019? (a number please). Would these be sufficient to cover Pacer withdrawals along with Class 319s transfers to the Northwest, wiring in the Welsh Valleys thence using either DMUs (170s or 15x units if wiring unfinished) or Class 315 EMUs and the advancement of some TPE and MML wiring schemes.

 

[Rich McLean]

If the latest statements are anything to go by as a result of Electrification delays, I can see derogation orders being inflicted on a number of 142s due to the fact planned (delayed) Electrification is in the pipeline, but delays prevent removing them without causing a major capacity crisis, with the premise being that they are removed from service once the ongoing knitting is up and Electric stock works in their place.

Or of course, the winning Northern bidder contacting ROSCO's and signing a deal for a large percentage (or all) of the 15x fleet from FGW once the lease runs out which will replace all the pacers, before the new Greater Western franchise incumbent has the chance. And it also looks as if 2/3rd of the 16x fleet will move into the Bristol area, but electrification delays could impact this.

 

[GrimsbyPacer]

Regardless of what DMU is procured it is still foul of EU 3B standard on emmissions, so I cannot see one being ordered.

Pacers will be scrapped because it has become politically unacceptable to do otherwise even though this may result in short term capacity shortages.

How many Class 170s will Scotrail be displacing between now and 31st December 2019? (a number please). Would these be sufficient to cover Pacer withdrawals along with Class 319s transfers to the Northwest, wiring in the Welsh Valleys thence using either DMUs (170s or 15x units if wiring unfinished) or Class 315 EMUs and the advancement of some TPE and MML wiring schemes.

I don't know how many 170's will be displaced. But according to my abc rail guide Scotrail has 66 of the class in various formations.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Pacers are going to be safe for a good few years, it would probably be political suicide for any politician to force the scrapping of pacers given there is already capacity issues with a lack of DMUs nationwide

 

[edwin_m]

I don't know how many 170's will be displaced. But according to my abc rail guide Scotrail has 66 of the class in various formations.

There are at least two phases: firstly the Edinburgh-Glasgow electrification which currently uses about 16 diagrams I think (including peak strengthening), and secondly the longer-distance 170 workings to be displaced by refurbished HSTs. The second phase depends on getting the HSTs, which partly depends on completion of the GW electrification.

 

[northwichcat]

I don't know how many 170's will be displaced. But according to my abc rail guide Scotrail has 66 of the class in various formations.

Porterbrook lease Scotrail 50, while Eversholt lease them 9. The latter will transfer to Southern, with some being subleased back to Scotrail. Not sure where you get the extra 7 from.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Pacers are going to be safe for a good few years, it would probably be political suicide for any politician to force the scrapping of pacers given there is already capacity issues with a lack of DMUs nationwide

I think you mean politicians hope the Pacers will last for a few more years. They were originally expected to be replaced in CP4 with the 150s being replaced in CP5 (see the North West RUS from 2007) but with growing passenger numbers they are being kept in service for a few years longer than planned. However, one of the ROSCOs is doubtful of some of the 150s lasting until 2024.

 

[bramling]

Regardless of what DMU is procured it is still foul of EU 3B standard on emmissions, so I cannot see one being ordered.

Pacers will be scrapped because it has become politically unacceptable to do otherwise even though this may result in short term capacity shortages.

How many Class 170s will Scotrail be displacing between now and 31st December 2019? (a number please). Would these be sufficient to cover Pacer withdrawals along with Class 319s transfers to the Northwest, wiring in the Welsh Valleys thence using either DMUs (170s or 15x units if wiring unfinished) or Class 315 EMUs and the advancement of some TPE and MML wiring schemes.

It's all very well scrapping Pacers for political reasons, but most rail users would prefer any type of train than having to stand, or worse the train being too full to board.

As long as they continue to operate reliably, these trains should be retained to provide additional capacity, as long as they work with a compliant train then this should not create too much of an issue. Personally, apart from the Merseytravel units which have been fitted with awful seats, I've never found any of the Pacer units to be that unpleasant to travel in -- in fact I find certain variants of class 150s can be significantly worse in terms of interior layout plus for some reason these units often seem to be filthy inside.

 

[GrimsbyPacer]

It's all very well scrapping Pacers for political reasons, but most rail users would prefer any type of train than having to stand, or worse the train being too full to board.

As long as they continue to operate reliably, these trains should be retained to provide additional capacity, as long as they work with a compliant train then this should not create too much of an issue. Personally, apart from the Merseytravel units which have been fitted with awful seats, I've never found any of the Pacer units to be that unpleasant to travel in -- in fact I find certain variants of class 150s can be significantly worse in terms of interior layout plus for some reason these units often seem to be filthy inside.

Look at Porterbrook's brochure for refitting some Pacers to be very nice inside. With accessable toilets and couch style seating and loads of space for buggies.. I think all Pacers should be done up in a similar way.

 

[northwichcat]

Look at Porterbrook's brochure for refitting some Pacers to be very nice inside. With accessable toilets and couch style seating and loads of space for buggies.. I think all Pacers should be done up in a similar way.

Problem is that gives you around 80 seats instead of around 120 seats, so you'd need longer formations on a lot of Pacer operated services.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Pacers keep being nentioned in generic terms, but the Class 142 fleet of Angel Trains are a different proposition to the Class 143/144 units.

Again, I will ask if Angel Trains have made any recent statement about their Class 142 units.

 

[GrimsbyPacer]

http://www.railjournal.com/index.ph...ain-upgrade-for-angel-trains-pacer-fleet.html

BRITISH rolling stock leasing company Angel Trains has awarded Voith a contract to supply 188 new final drives and cardan shafts for its fleet of 94 class 142 Pacer dmus, which are used by Arriva Trains Wales and Northern Rail.

Voith says it has adapted the design of its KE-485 final drive to enable drop-in replacement for the existing SCG RF420i unit without the need to modify the vehicle.
Voith will supply complete new wheelsets, comprising a modified gear unit, axle, wheels, and axle bearings, with delivery scheduled for 2015. The final drives and cardan shafts are designed to operate up to 1.6 million kilometres without requiring an overhaul.

This looks to be the only work Angel Trains are doing.

 

[deltic08]

Pacers are going to be safe for a good few years, it would probably be political suicide for any politician to force the scrapping of pacers given there is already capacity issues with a lack of DMUs nationwide

That is a miracle considering they haven't been "safe" for the last 30 years. How did you do it? Maybe you should work for Northern and show them how to keep them going for a good few years.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Pacers are safer than car transport. To me that's safe enough.

 

[Y961 XBU]

Porterbrook lease Scotrail 50, while Eversholt lease them 9. The latter will transfer to Southern, with some being subleased back to Scotrail. Not sure where you get the extra 7 from.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I think you mean politicians hope the Pacers will last for a few more years. They were originally expected to be replaced in CP4 with the 150s being replaced in CP5 (see the North West RUS from 2007) but with growing passenger numbers they are being kept in service for a few years longer than planned. However, one of the ROSCOs is doubtful of some of the 150s lasting until 2024.

I dont understand why you have said Politicians hope Pacers will last a few more years as i dont think theres much of a problem with them, as someone who travels on Class 142s regular they are doing a far better job than the Class 150s

 

[XCTurbostar]

Not forgetting what some people said in the first page of this thread. There are a lot of pacers to get rid of and one way or another, I have no doubt that some of them will be refurbished to cover for longer than expected electrification works. If there are nearly 100 of them then it's quite clear to me that one fleet of trains will not be enough to force them out completely. This will need a combined effort of 150s/170s/158s and 156s to enable them to be entirely removed. I do find it interesting though how there is no emphasis on the Pacer fleet elsewhere, or is that because the North tends to cry about this sport of issues and everyone else just gets on with it.

Scraping them would be a political nightmare given the current DMU situation (or lack of) as per normal with this sort of thing and the railways. No-one will take any action until them last year or so.

Thanks,
Ross