Pacer line users

[northwichcat]

Which would rather have:

Option a) All trains on your line become 150 operated in the next couple of years. It stays 150 operated until around 2022 when it gets brand new trains as replacement.

Option b) Your train retains Pacers until around 2017 when it gets brand new trains as replacement.

 

[WestCoast]

I think if Northern's 150s were to have a really good (Stagecoach-style) interior refurbishment, they would be fine until 2022.

However, that does not seem all that likely, so I'd rather have new trains (preferably something akin to a 172) sooner rather than later. The 142s can't go on all that much longer...:roll: They are an absolute nightmare when busy with luggage/prams/cycles.

 

[Drsatan]

FGW's 150s are infinitely preferable to their 142s, so I'd rather see the 142s go back to where they belong and be replaced by 150s!

 

[northwichcat]

where they belong

I take it you mean Cornwall then.

 

[ainsworth74]

It's actually quite a hard question because there are some Pacer operated lines where the issue is simply that Pacers are rubbish whilst on others the issue is heavy overcrowding. So on the former waiting it out till 2017 for new stock isn't too bad as for most of the day those routes aren't overcrowded whilst on the latter there is a need for capacity now so the extra seating and space of the 20m 150 vehicle compared with the 15m 14x vehicle is needed now.

Speaking in terms of my own local line (Darlo-Saltburn) I think I would rather wait it out till 2017 and then get brand new stock. There is overcrowding but it's only in the peak for the rest of the day there are strong loadings but it's not full and standing so I think I would wait it out for new stock sooner rather than get more old stock first before getting new stock out in 2022.

 

[WestCoast]

I'd rather see the 142s go back to where they belong

The 142s don't belong anywhere! If we are going off what BR intended they should really be on rural branches of the South West, as jcollins points out...

A better idea would be Iran though.

I always thought it was a shame that Pacers were supposedly not good enough for the GOBLIN line! They have to manage on commuter/urban routes elsewhere...

 

[hougtimo]

Neither. I want pacers. Yes please. Maybe go back to their original engines and gearboxes too... I'd love to hear those 'for real'.

None of this new stuff please.

 

[northwichcat]

The 142s don't belong anywhere! If we are going off what BR intended they should really be on rural branches of the South West, as jcollins points out...

Or by an alternative definition they belong on low usage lines so there certainly shouldn't be around 100 Pacers in Northern's possession.

A better idea would be Iran though.

Why not give them the Pacers for free to improve international relations - they actually paid for the 141s so they should be happy with 142s for free?

 

[Failed Unit]

But when you looks at the deliveries as built

141 - Yorkshire for WYPTE (Harrogate line if I recall)
142 - Manchester for GMPTE (orange)
142 - Cornish Branches (Chocolate and Cream)
142 - Neville Hill and Newton Heath
143 - Heaton for Newcastle area (some where even in T&W livery)
144 - Yorkshire for WYPTE

So very few pacers started life in Cornwall unfortunately many more up North. If all 92 had gone to Cornwall they would have too many!

Not sure why the 143s left Newcastle to be replaced by 142s (and why the 142s didn't just go to Bristol) Nor why they ended up in Wales, but a Masterstroke by Northern Spirit dumped more Pacers in Cardiff with 150/2 replacing it. I think Prism who owned the Valley franchise at the time did it to save money.

But unfortunately the pacers will be Manchester and Yorkshire's suffering. I still think of the 150/1 as Derbys however...

 

[northwichcat]

Neither. I want pacers. Yes please. Maybe go back to their original engines and gearboxes too... I'd love to hear those 'for real'.

None of this new stuff please.

New stuff is safer.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/380000/images/_383785_crash_300.jpg

 

[WestCoast]

Neither. I want pacers. Yes please. Maybe go back to their original engines and gearboxes too... I'd love to hear those 'for real'.

None of this new stuff please.

Perhaps skip the train bit and plonk a Leyland National bus on the line...

They are very quirky trains the Pacers and as rubbish as they are for the average passenger's comfort needs/travel experience, I will sort of miss them..:roll:

Still, new trains are still needed ASAP to replace them.

 

[hougtimo]

New stuff is safer.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/380000/images/_383785_crash_300.jpg

Well give me one for personal use in my garden then!

 

[northwichcat]

But when you looks at the deliveries as built

141 - Yorkshire for WYPTE (Harrogate line if I recall)
142 - Manchester for GMPTE (orange)
142 - Cornish Branches (Chocolate and Cream)
142 - Neville Hill and Newton Heath
143 - Heaton for Newcastle area (some where even in T&W livery)
144 - Yorkshire for WYPTE

So very few pacers started life in Cornwall unfortunately many more up North. If all 92 had gone to Cornwall they would have too many!

I mentioned Cornwall because some were built for Cornwall and Drsatan implied the 142s FGW have now are North of England units that don't belong down here.

Nor why they ended up in Wales, but a Masterstroke by Northern Spirit dumped more Pacers in Cardiff with 150/2 replacing it. I think Prism who owned the Valley franchise at the time did it to save money.

Have you not heard of West Yorkshire Metro and how they get extra seats for overcrowded services in the area?

Like I said in my previous post they belong on low usage lines so if demand has grown then they should be moved - which is what happened with the 142/150 South Wales swap.

 

[Darandio]

Why not give them the Pacers for free to improve international relations - they actually paid for the 141s so they should be happy with 142s for free?

It's quite possible they could see it as an act of war.

 

[Failed Unit]

Like I said in my previous post they belong on low usage lines so if demand has grown then they should be moved - which is what happened with the 142/150 South Wales swap.

It was absolutely nothing to do with loadings, it was 100% to do with cost savings pacers are cheaper to lease end of when why they ended up in the South Wales! Prism were in major trouble at the time and franchise eventually folded.

If it was about capacity why have Scotrail got 8x 158 rather than 8x Pacers orginally proposed, I can tell you for a fact that the lines to Anniesland, Paisley Canal etc only need a 153 on them a pacer would be more than enough now.

Do you think ATW would give up 150/2 for pacers now? No they would be told to take a hike just like CT were when they wanted to swap 156s and 158s with Scotrail

Please stop lecturing when you are not certain of the facts yourself.

 

[northwichcat]

Well give me one for personal use in my garden then!

Are you proposing to build your own line? I think the neighbours might complain if there is any squealing.

 

[WestCoast]

If it was about capacity why have Scotrail got 8x 158 rather than 8x Pacers orginally proposed, I can tell you for a fact that the lines to Anniesland, Paisley Canal etc only need a 153 on them a pacer would be more than enough now.

It's situations like that, which are very annoying when you see other TOCs running Pacers on comparatively long-distance services, such as Northern's Morecambe - Leeds. Alas, that is a disadvantage of a segmented privatised railway.

 

[northwichcat]

It was absolutely nothing to do with loadings

Nothing at all? So if a line had loadings of around 190 it would have got a Pacer seating around 120?

 

[Failed Unit]

Nothing at all? So if a line had loadings of around 190 it would have got a Pacer seating around 120?

And that point it relavent to why pacers were swapped between South Wales and Yorkshire because?

Do some research it was to save cash - simple!

 

[northwichcat]

And that point it relavent to why pacers were swapped between South Wales and Yorkshire because?

Do some research it was to save cash - simple!

So you're saying MTL, who were on the verge of collapse, agreed to take on trains that were more expensive to run in their Northern Spirit franchise in order to save another unrelated company on the verge of collapse and there were no other factors that came in to play?

 

[Failed Unit]

So you're saying MTL were on the verge of collapse and agreed to take on trains that were more expensive to run in their Northern Spirit franchise in order to save another company on the verge of collapse?

Again totally irrelavant.

It was South Wales that wanted to save costs, they gave up the 150/2s to reduce this, they don't care if MTL could not afford it or not. If Prism did not want to reduce costs they would never have given up the 150/2 in exactly the same way as other TOCs don't give up thier stock! No one could force the South Wales franchise to give up the 150/2s - they wanted rid of them!

Thinking about it this is an annoying part of the whole thing.
I am a franchise holder I have a 150/2 on a line that never sees more than 10 passengers per day, but I pay the lease so there is nothing you can do about it, you have 150 people on your 153, but that is your problem not mine!

 

[hougtimo]

Are you proposing to build your own line? I think the neighbours might complain if there is any squealing.

Neighbours?! Where do you think I live, my dear chap?!

Nowt but fields all round.



Maybe.

The neighbours can **** off.

 

[northwichcat]

Again totally irrelavant.

It was South Wales that wanted to save costs, they gave up the 150/2s to reduce this, they don't care if MTL could not afford it or not. If Prism did not want to reduce costs they would never have given up the 150/2 in exactly the same way as other TOCs don't give up thier stock! No one could force the South Wales franchise to give up the 150/2s - they wanted rid of them!

I didn't say anything about Valley Lines not wanting rid of the 150s. I said why would MTL have agreed to it if there were no other factors in play? FNW and Wessex Trains also had Pacers trains so it's not like Northern Spirit was the only option for getting Pacers to replace 150s.

 

[Failed Unit]

I didn't say anything about Valley Lines not wanting rid of the 150s. I said why would MTL have agreed to it? FNW and Wessex Trains also had Pacers trains so it's not like Northern Spirit was the only option.

I am not disputing that someone needed to provide the funding - but if it was not for Wales and Boarders (Wessex didn't exist at the time) then Yorkshire will still have more pacers.

(opps - It was Valley line and Wales and Boarders both owned by Prism at the time)

Still highlights one of the major things with Privatisation as I highlighted on another thread, would BR have taken so long to tackle the over-crowding on Norwich - Liverpool when other areas had 158s running around on routes with loading for 153s? the pacers are a bit more difficult as they are banned from so many areas.

 

[northernrail]

I hate 150, can not stand them

 

[LE Greys]

150s are solid units. Pretty basic, but solid and usable. I've done Truro-Plymouth on one (with an engine out) and it was a bit crowded, but generally comfortable. Doing Carlisle-Newcastle on a Pacer was seriously off-putting. Get rid of the Pacers, I can live with 150s.

 

[sprinterguy]

Peoples' chossing of Option A or B should in theory depend on the nature of the Pacer route(s) nearest to them. For those living in and around the likes of Liverpool, Manchester and Leeds, the overcrowding issues are vast and as such those areas should see investment in 3-car 172s to allow the 142s to be withdrawn and a number of 150s cascaded to other duties. So option B.

Those other duties for the 150s would entail replacing Pacers on the likes of my local Pacer route before I moved to Birmingham (Woohoo, no Pacers round here!); Middlesborough to Hexham, where whilst trains can be full at peak times, they are not witnessing the same levels of overcrowding prevalent around Yorkshire and Lancashire, so the smaller capacity increase and better comfort offered by introducing 150s and withdrawing Pacers is to be welcomed. Option A.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Not sure why the 143s left Newcastle to be replaced by 142s (and why the 142s didn't just go to Bristol) Nor why they ended up in Wales, but a Masterstroke by Northern Spirit dumped more Pacers in Cardiff with 150/2 replacing it. I think Prism who owned the Valley franchise at the time did it to save money.

Probably because it was better to have a standard single class of Pacers (142s) at Heaton and the entire class of 143s concentrated in the West Country for the purposes of fleet standardisation.

 

[Failed Unit]

Probably because it was better to have a standard single class of Pacers (142s) at Heaton and the entire class of 143s concentrated in the West Country for the purposes of fleet standardisation.

As built the entire fleet of 143s were based at Newcastle so it was a standard fleet, I suspect that once the 143s were sent to the south west some of them were replaced by 156s and 153s when I think about it. I think they have less 142s at Heaton than they used to have 143s

 

[sprinterguy]

As built the entire fleet of 143s were based at Newcastle so it was a standard fleet, I suspect that once the 143s were sent to the south west some of them were replaced by 156s and 153s when I think about it. I think they have less 142s at Heaton than they used to have 143s

Yes, but Heaton also had some 142s for as far back as I can remember, which is the early nineties. I'm reasonably sure that the 142s were still prevalent in the north east before Heaton got it's own official allocation of them.

Heaton has 33 142s allocated to it these days, so they have more 142s now than they had 143s back in the day. About half of the 26 or so Pacer diagrams at Heaton are in South Yorkshire though, I don't know whether this has always been the case.

 

[Failed Unit]

Yes, but Heaton also had some 142s for as far back as I can remember, which is the early nineties. I'm reasonably sure that the 142s were still prevalent in the north east before Heaton got it's own official allocation of them.

Heaton has 33 142s allocated to it these days, so they have more 142s now than they had 143s back in the day. About half of the 26 or so Pacer diagrams at Heaton are in South Yorkshire though, I don't know whether this has always been the case.

You are a little young then

When the 143s were delivered there was no 142s at Heaton just the 1st Gen DMUs. Heaton was always self contained in the past pre-privatisation the Heaton DMUs would have only gone as far south as Darlington and Middlesborough.

The 143s had all gone for definate by the 1991, they only had about a dozen pacers then confined really to the Sunderland - MetroCentre route. Carlisle - Newcastle - Middlesborough was really in the hands of the 156.

Morpeth got a 153 as did the Middlesborough - Newcastle via Darlington route. 153s also appeared on the routes to Carlisle, Hexham and Middlesborough but no often.

Heaton had an allocation of 158s at the time as well - I think all the 3 cars.

As I said I am sure once the 156s started arriving off went the 143s and the Tyne and Wear route (whom sponsered some 143s) were replaced by the 142s