Pacer and Sprinter replacement

[HSTEd]

Won't the 507/8 units need replacing soon anyway? You could wire Preston - Ormskirk to coincide with a new delivery of 378s to take advantage of this.

Significant new stock in the North?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I am looking at routes in the North-West that would not meet the electrification criteria and would still be subject to DMU operation and cite some of these below:-

Blackburn to Clitheroe (and onwards)
Preston to Colne
Bolton to Blackburn...noting the Sough Tunnel problems
Manchester Victoria to Todmorden
Manchester Victoria to Daisy Hill (and onwards)
Lostock Junction to Wigan Wallgate
Wigan Wallgate to Southport

I am willing to be corrected on any of these routes, if I have overlooked any future planned improvements.

 

[brad465]

Well my proposal for 679 DMU carriages is not really enormous and the 23m Sprinters should last long enough to allow them to be replaced by EMUs.

At least one person's not far off my count mentioned at the start. Is there a chance the number required would go down in the future if any of the routes the sprinters/pacers use are electrified before they're due replacement?

 

[HSTEd]

At least one person's not far off my count mentioned at the start. Is there a chance the number required would go down in the future if any of the routes the sprinters/pacers use are electrified before they're due replacement?

That assumes that Cascaded Cl323s end up on the Valley Lines and remove any need for Pacers/Cl150s to be replaced with DMUs on that route, it does however assume rather pessimistically that any electrification on the GWML will not net release any multiple units as the Networkers would be used to strengthen remaining DMU services (such as Chiltern) and would not cascade.

 

[northwichcat]

That assumes that Cascaded Cl323s end up on the Valley Lines and remove any need for Pacers/Cl150s to be replaced with DMUs on that route, it does however assume rather pessimistically that any electrification on the GWML will not net release any multiple units as the Networkers would be used to strengthen remaining DMU services (such as Chiltern) and would not cascade.

How would 323s be cascaded to the Valley Lines? There won't be enough 319s going to the North West to replace 323s as well as run all the newly electrified routes, so a new order of EMUs for either/both of Northern and LM would be required before 323s get cascaded anywhere.

 

[HSTEd]

How would 323s be cascaded to the Valley Lines? There won't be enough 319s going to the North West to replace 323s as well as run all the newly electrified routes, so a new order of EMUs for either/both of Northern and LM would be required before 323s get cascaded anywhere.

Well there are all the 319s and the 315s from Crossrail to cascade, you should be able to drown the 323s in a horde of multiple units, at which point I just picked them because the fleet is about the right size and they are 3 coaches, so seemed well suited to the Valley Lines.

 

[ainsworth74]

Well there are all the 319s and the 315s from Crossrail to cascade

Pretty sure that 315s are going to be on their way to the scrap heap upon retirement. Especially seeing as they're older than any existing 14x or 15x unit by about 5 years at least!

 

[HSTEd]

Pretty sure that 315s are going to be on their way to the scrap heap upon retirement. Especially seeing as they're older than any existing 14x or 15x unit by about 5 years at least!

Bah, then new rolling stock for GWML it is to allow the 319s to go North and send the 323s to Wales.

 

[BR Blue]

FCC have 13 class 321`s which may become available after Thameslink.

 

[anthony263]

What about first capital connect's class 317's etc are these being replaced by the new thameslink trains when the thameslink services are expanded?

 

[HSTEd]

What about first capital connect's class 317's etc are these being replaced by the new thameslink trains when the thameslink services are expanded?

Are they going to be running Thameslink Trains onto the ECML via those new tunnels they built? Im still not sure what those are even for

 

[swt_passenger]

Are they going to be running Thameslink Trains onto the ECML via those new tunnels they built? Im still not sure what those are even for

They are there to run 8 tph onto the ECML, 4 to Welwyn GC, 2 to Peterborough, 2 to Cambridge.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Well there are all the 319s and the 315s from Crossrail to cascade, you should be able to drown the 323s in a horde of multiple units, at which point I just picked them because the fleet is about the right size and they are 3 coaches, so seemed well suited to the Valley Lines.

Crossrail doesn't cascade any 319s from the GW unless it is extended to Reading, and that is still only hypothetical at this stage. Now IF Crossrail was extended to Reading, Crossrail would need additional rolling stock - but FGW would still need some 319s for the planned EMU services to Oxford and Newbury - unless someone's planning to take Crossrail even further.

Most people suspect the 315s wil go for scrap when replaced by Crossrail on the Shenfield route though - they'll be approaching 40 years old by then.

I reckon any proposals to send 323s to the Valleys is pure conjecture and requires so many 'what ifs' to happen first it isn't really worth wondering about...

 

[northwichcat]

Well there are all the 319s and the 315s from Crossrail to cascade, you should be able to drown the 323s in a horde of multiple units, at which point I just picked them because the fleet is about the right size and they are 3 coaches, so seemed well suited to the Valley Lines.

315s are to be withdrawn after Crossrail.

Ideally Northern should be getting either 3 car EMUs or 4 car EMUs with SDO considering there are a lot of platforms in the North West that take a maximum of 6 carriages. The 319s are not exactly the best suited units!

On your logic of 315s replacing 323s, why not cascade the 3 car 314s to Cardiff after Valley lines electrification?

 

[HSTEd]

315s are to be withdrawn after Crossrail.

Ideally Northern should be getting either 3 car EMUs or 4 car EMUs with SDO considering there are a lot of platforms in the North West that take a maximum of 6 carriages. The 319s are not exactly the best suited units!

On your logic of 315s replacing 323s, why not cascade the 3 car 314s to Cardiff after Valley lines electrification?

Because the 314 class is almost certainly too small to take over Valley Lines operation by itself and would thus require a mixed fleet to be operated on those services, undermining my purpose in concentrating the 323s with one operator in one region.

Also because Id never heard of Cl314s before now

EDIT:

Does this Thameslink to Welwyn thing mean that FCC will have additional multiple units that will be surplus or will Kings Cross/Moorgate Services continue regardless of what happens?

 

[anthony263]

Because the 314 class is almost certainly too small to take over Valley Lines operation by itself and would thus require a mixed fleet to be operated on those services, undermining my purpose in concentrating the 323s with one operator in one region.

Also because Id never heard of Cl314s before now

EDIT:

Does this Thameslink to Welwyn thing mean that FCC will have additional multiple units that will be surplus or will Kings Cross/Moorgate Services continue regardless of what happens?

Moorgate will continue

 

[HSTEd]

So in addition to the 679 diesel carriages my plan requires somewhere on order of a hundred EMU carriages for the valley lines.... but still its not a huge order of new diesel stock.

 

[northwichcat]

Because the 314 class is almost certainly too small to take over Valley Lines operation by itself and would thus require a mixed fleet to be operated on those services, undermining my purpose in concentrating the 323s with one operator in one region.

Also because Id never heard of Cl314s before now

There's as many only one less 314 at Scotrail than 323s at Northern. There would be issues with replacing the LM 323s with 4 car units at present.

 

[anthony263]

I hope they dont give us the class 314's considering how old they will be by 2018.

yes i think we will happily have the class 323's from Northern & London Midland.

Didn't London midland look at replacing the class 323's with other units?

 

[BR Blue]

I`d go for replacing all pacers with stretched, 2 car, articulated, bi-mode Parry people movers. Cruising around northernland at 40mph.

 

[northwichcat]

Bah, then new rolling stock for GWML it is to allow the 319s to go North and send the 323s to Wales.

DfT have proposals for using 319s on Thames Valley until they are 39 years old with doubled up 319s possibly being cascaded on to Padd-Read/Didcot/Swin as HST replacement instead of 8 car IEP:
http://assets.dft.gov.uk/publicatio...ress-programme-by-sir-andrew-foster/annex.pdf

I'd go for replacing all pacers with stretched, 2 car, articulated, bi-mode Parry people movers. Cruising around northernland at 40mph.

Wouldn't be possible as most Pacer routes in the North use part of the WCML, ECML or MML so anything sub-75mph wouldn't be permitted. Plus you'd need two of these to replace every Pacer.

 

[swt_passenger]

Does this Thameslink to Welwyn thing mean that FCC will have additional multiple units that will be surplus or will Kings Cross/Moorgate Services continue regardless of what happens?

There will be fewer FCC services into Kings Cross than now, especially offpeak, but more into Moorgate (see below). This is all discussed in the London and SE RUS. The remaining mainline suburban services certainly won't need as much stock as they do now, my personal expectation is that their services into Kings Cross will be able to be covered by a reduced number of the 365s - especially as the Kings Lynns are almost certainly going to be IEPs. So the 321s and 317s look as though they could all be spare, although again they are quite old by 2018.

Then they are also intending to run more trains from the Hertford loop into Moorgate as well - not sure how they'll resource that, but the 313s won't last for ever either...

 

[northwichcat]

I hope they dont give us the class 314's considering how old they will be by 2018.

yes i think we will happily have the class 323's from Northern & London Midland.

I don't either. I was just trying to make the point that putting 314s on Valley Lines would be the stupid as using 315s as 323 replacement

Didn't London midland look at replacing the class 323's with other units?

DfT wanted Northern to order around 30 x 3 car new commuter EMUs as 323 replacement and extra capacity, then LM to get the Northern 323s as extra capacity. When DfT decided to cancel Northern's proposed order for new EMUs LM reportedly proposed they would order new 3 car commuter EMUs and send their 323s to Northern but there was never any announcement by the government that confirmed that.

 

[anthony263]

There will be fewer FCC services into Kings Cross than now, especially offpeak, but more into Moorgate (see below). This is all discussed in the London and SE RUS. The remaining mainline suburban services certainly won't need as much stock as they do now, my personal expectation is that their services into Kings Cross will be able to be covered by a reduced number of the 365s - especially as the Kings Lynns are almost certainly going to be IEPs. So the 321s and 317s look as though they could all be spare, although again they are quite old by 2018.

Then they are also intending to run more trains from the Hertford loop into Moorgate as well - not sure how they'll resource that, but the 313s won't last for ever either...

I am expecting to see an order for class 377/2378's from Bombardier to replace the class 313's on services into Morrgate

 

[northwichcat]

I am expecting to see an order for class 377/2378's from Bombardier to replace the class 313's on services into Morrgate

Southern have issued a tender for new units in lieu of their 377/5s delayed by Thameslink, so it's likely either the new units they order or the 377/5s will replace the 313s when the 377/5s are released by Thameslink.

 

[swt_passenger]

Southern have issued a tender for new units in lieu of their 377/5s delayed by Thameslink, so it's likely either the new units they order or the 377/5s will replace the 313s when the 377/5s are released by Thameslink.

Is that SN's 313s or FCC's 313s, there won't be enough in that order to cover both will there?

 

[northwichcat]

Is that SN's 313s or FCC's 313s, there won't be enough in that order to cover both will there?

I see what you mean. I was thinking Southern would have more than enough surplus units to replace their 313s, if they get the new order and 377/5s.

Although, the 365s will be available for an internal cascade at FCC if IEP goes ahead.

 

[tbtc]

the 365s will be available for an internal cascade at FCC if IEP goes ahead.

For what though?

If Thamealink takes over the two Peterborough services and the two "semi fast" Cambridge ones then the only FCC routes left will be Cambridge fasts (replaced by IEP) and the Moorgate services (which 365s would be useless for).

 

[sprinterguy]

I'd go for replacing all pacers with stretched, 2 car, articulated, bi-mode Parry people movers. Cruising around northernland at 40mph.

Oh please no. The mistakes that were made in ordering the Pacers should never be repeated with the modern equivalent. I hope that this post was made in jest?

 

[Ivo]

I hope they dont give us the class 314's considering how old they will be by 2018.

yes i think we will happily have the class 323's from Northern & London Midland.

Didn't London midland look at replacing the class 323's with other units?

I know I'm more or less the only one here who thinks this way, but...

PLEASE DON'T LET THE 323s MOVE TO CARDIFF :cry: LET THEM STAY WHERE THEY ARE!

(In case anyone didn't guess, I still hate the damn things. And I can now "officially" add 3rd rail equivalents such as the 466 as well.)

However, realistically, what else is there that could head down to South Wales? 318s or 320s possibly, but that's about it, and that's a pretty big shift considering the distances involved! Something tells me that there won't be new units involved...

I'd rather keep the Pacers than have those things. Even if they are getting on a bit and not DDA-compliant.

 

[sprinterguy]

That assumes that Cascaded Cl323s end up on the Valley Lines and remove any need for Pacers/Cl150s to be replaced with DMUs on that route, it does however assume rather pessimistically that any electrification on the GWML will not net release any multiple units as the Networkers would be used to strengthen remaining DMU services (such as Chiltern) and would not cascade.

Would twenty three metre carriages (As the 323s have) be permitted to run on the Valley Lines? I have heard that there are clearance issues on some of the lines when it comes to clearing vehicles longer than twenty metres.

With Transpennine and MML electrification seemingly quite solidly on the cards at the moment, my personal grand plan would see the entire 323 fleet moved to Northerns' East side, presuming that those two previously named electrification projects were carried out to their fullest extent to grant Yorkshire a largely electrified commuter rail network.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

However, realistically, what else is there that could head down to South Wales? 318s or 320s possibly, but that's about it, and that's a pretty big shift considering the distances involved! Something tells me that there won't be new units involved...

I thought it was a pretty good idea when it was first suggested that, as a short term interim cost saving measure, that the electrified Valley Lines could receive the 315s released from the Great Eastern by Crossrail (Reduced to run as 3-car trains like their 313 and 314 brethren). However, having considered the advanced age these units will have reached by the time that Crossrail is completed, it seems that new stock would be the only way forward for an electrified Valley Lines network.