Oyster on Stansted Express

[90sWereBetter]

Would it be theoretically possible to travel on the Stansted Express between Tottenham Hale and Liverpool Street using an Oyster card? I think it can be done on the basis that I touch in on a reader at Tottenham, and then I can catch any train from there heading into the city, but I'm not entirely sure. Would the automatic ticket barriers realise that I've used an express service (admittedly well within the Oyster travel zone) and charge me a maximum fare?

I see it as an easy way of getting a 379 journey under my belt.

 

[clagmonster]

The system would not be capable of detecting which service was used. As far as I can see, there are no set down/pick up restrictions at Tottenham Hale, so perfectly valid.

 

[soil]

there's no such thing as an express service. It's just another train.

Oyster is perfectly valid.

 

[yorkie]

The trains are operated by Greater Anglia (or whatever they call themselves today). Stansted Express is merely a service name, like Cambridge Express or West Coastway or Gatwick Express. It is not a Train Company.

And the trains aren't express either - nearly all the trains between Tottenham Hale and Liverpool Street are non-stop, travelling at slow speeds, with typically only around 2 of them per hour calling at Hackney Downs.

 

[KingBruss]

379's also run some of the Cambridge services, which you could combine with Oyster validity as far north as Broxbourne.

 

[maniacmartin]

Greater Anglia don't try to pretend that Stansted Express is separate brand (or seperate TOC) with separate ticketing in the same way Southern do with Gatwick Express. They class Stansted Express as a normal train.

 

[yorkie]

Hmm, they're not as sneaky as Southern, of course, and I've never heard them tell porkies about the operator (unlike Southern), but they do have a Stansted Express website and they fool some people into thinking they're a TOC.

Even some people at National Rail Enquiries are fooled, with the National Rail website listing them as a Train Company! National Rail refuse to remove the erroneous listings of these non-existent fake 'Train Companies'

The ATOC website is correct, though.

 

[sarahj]

I'm gonna play devils advocate here, and while I work for the company involved,I have no input on tickets, branding, service etc, and might not even agree with what I am saying:

You could argue that Gatwick express is like an inter-city in germany, and that to travel on it, your paying a supplement for the 'higher standard' of service.
So while in germany if you travel on a IC or ICE service with a standard ticket, you will have to pay the supplement. The IC/ICe are branded differently to normal seervices and the staff that man them often have a different uniform. They are also marked in the timetable as IC etc.

there we go. Before anyone gets mad at me, for this, read the top paragraph again. Abusive PM's will be deleted and reported.

SJ

 

[jon0844]

I do think that if we change ticketing in the future, supplements for certain services e.g. Intercity, or faster/express trains, might be a better way to do things than the current mess we have, with loads of ticket combinations and varying restrictions.

But for now, Gatwick Express is just a name on a Southern train. As such, Southern-only tickets should be usable. It's no longer a TOC, and Southern should have been aware of the implications - as well as the DfT - when changing things.

The Stansted Express is just a normal train (albeit a brand new one, even if they are falling part in places after less than two years!) and they share both GA and Stansted Express branding. The way that GA gets around the 'issue' is by charging a higher fare to go to Stansted Airport than, say, a couple of stations further on (and those who know can split tickets then end short/start early).

In the case of Southern, the problem disappears when the new franchise is created. With no FCC to compete with, there would be no cheaper TOC-specific ticket and so the price will go up, in effect to what the any permitted fare is that's indisputably valid on GatEx.

As I've said before, at the end of the day Southern is trying to keep this problem low-profile. It can currently make more money from the vast majority of ignorant passengers and tourists, and when - what are probably thought of as - smartarses turn up with their Southern-only tickets, just let them off (as always happens). Far better than risk having any action taken that ruins a nice little earner.

I would seriously hope you've not been getting abusive PMs from anyone on here. I think we're all adults and able to discuss and debate without resorting to that.

 

[87015]

I'm gonna play devils advocate here, and while I work for the company involved,I have no input on tickets, branding, service etc, and might not even agree with what I am saying:

You could argue that Gatwick express is like an inter-city in germany, and that to travel on it, your paying a supplement for the 'higher standard' of service.
So while in germany if you travel on a IC or ICE service with a standard ticket, you will have to pay the supplement. The IC/ICe are branded differently to normal seervices and the staff that man them often have a different uniform. They are also marked in the timetable as IC etc.

GX and SN are both operated by Southern. DB-IC and DB Regio are very different as DB-IC is effectively open access, Regio is funded by the landers mainly on a route by route basis.

there we go. Before anyone gets mad at me, for this, read the top paragraph again. Abusive PM's will be deleted and reported.

SJ

A DB IC/ICE train is operated by a different company to a RB/RE one though due to the balkanisation of German railways and the sad decline of services in said country as a result...

 

[34D]

there's no such thing as an express service. It's just another train.

Oyster is perfectly valid.

The trains that using oyster on are a grey area are the class 90 mark 3a London-Norwich services, which are pick up only/set down only at Stratford Regional.

 

[maniacmartin]

How does that work, given than Elsenham and Audley End are after Stansted Airport and the trains that serve them from London Liverpool Street (after a quick look on National Rail Enquiries) don't call at the airport? Is their an easement that permits doubling back?

For Audley End, change at Stansted Airport for a Cross Country service.

For Elsenham, doubling back is permitted between Stansted Mountfitchit and Stansted Airport for interchange purposes only, as they are members of the Stansted Routeing Group.

 

[455driver]

The trains that using oyster on are a grey area are the class 90 mark 3a London-Norwich services, which are pick up only/set down only at Stratford Regional.

How is that a grey area, if the train is set down only and you get on it then your ticket is not valid and you will have to buy a ticket from the last pick up station.

There is no truth in the rumour that I have been known to use a travel card to "get" class 90s (and 86s before them) in the book!
Honest.

If I was ever caught (a couple of times) I never moaned about it and I just paid up to get a little extra in.

 

[Be3G]

The trains that using oyster on are a grey area are the class 90 mark 3a London-Norwich services, which are pick up only/set down only at Stratford Regional.

This is also actually the case with northbound Stansted Express trains on Mondays to Saturdays. GA's timetable suggests otherwise, but standing at Liverpool Street Mon–Sat I'm pretty certain the stop at Tottenham Hale is unadvertised, and OpenTrainTimes seems to agree too.

It's only northbound because, I presume, of the inability to stop people boarding a southbound train at Tottenham Hale… and I assume it doesn't apply Sundays as the Stansted Express is used to connect with the Stratford-Cambridge stoppers.

 

[yorkie]

The rules of ticketing are defined in the NRCoC, which refers to permitted routes, defined as through trains, the shortest route, and the Routeing Guide.

So TOCs cannot invent rules to prevent the NRCoC applying.

In Germany, different rules apply.

As for "doubling back" it is true that, for mapped routes, you cannot double back, but look at the definition of doubling back, and that does not in any way prohibit doubling back through a junction. Furthermore, doubling back is permitted within station routeing groups for interchange purposes.

A London to Elsenham ticket is valid via Stansted (for interchange purposes).

A London to Audley End ticket is valid via Stansted, and is absolutely valid to finish short at Stansted.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The trains that using oyster on are a grey area are the class 90 mark 3a London-Norwich services, which are pick up only/set down only at Stratford Regional.

I agree that London-Norwich services, for journeys to Stratford are a grey area. However a ticket inspection between these points is unlikely.

However there is no grey area for Norwich-London services, which are advertised on the relevant platform at Stratford, as being a train to London.

 

[maniacmartin]

How is that a grey area, if the train is set down only and you get on it then your ticket is not valid and you will have to buy a ticket from the last pick up station.

The grey area isn't about boarding at such a station, but if you split ticket at such a station. Are you allowed to combine tickets under NRCoC 19(b) which requires the train to call at the station?

 

[jon0844]

This is also actually the case with northbound Stansted Express trains on Mondays to Saturdays. GA's timetable suggests otherwise, but standing at Liverpool Street Mon–Sat I'm pretty certain the stop at Tottenham Hale is unadvertised, and OpenTrainTimes seems to agree too.

Hmm. I can't say what the platform signs say, but I am 99.99% certain the train itself DOES show Tottenham Hale. By doing so, I'd say it's a valid set down and I wouldn't be charged a ticket to the next stop (Harlow?).

 

[MikeWh]

Hmm. I can't say what the platform signs say, but I am 99.99% certain the train itself DOES show Tottenham Hale. By doing so, I'd say it's a valid set down and I wouldn't be charged a ticket to the next stop (Harlow?).

Having travelled on one recently I can confirm this. The boards at Liverpool Street do not show the stop because they don't want to fill up a train with people only going to the next stop and deprive airport users of space and/or seats as a result. Southbound the problem doesn't exist as all the airport passengers are already on at Tottenham Hale. However, if you do get on a northbound express service (possibly because a cancellation means you are directed there by a member of staff) then the internal boards do mention Tottenham Hale as a standard stop.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Surely the "definitive" answer (fsvo definitive) is what the National Rail Timetable shows for the service in question?

And what it shows (in Table 22) is that the fast Stansted services are pick-up only at Tottenham Hale Northbound, but normal calls Southbound. Having said that, when I've used them there's been no ticket check until after Tottenham Hale anyway.

 

[Be3G]

The train's onboard announcements might mention Tottenham Hale though simply because if they didn't, infrequent travellers would wonder why the train is making an unannounced call at a station. Presumably GA wouldn't expect travellers to TOM to be on the train at Liverpool Street because the boards don't mention the former at the latter.

Checking OpenTrainTimes for the next Stansted departure from TOM does show it as pickup only. I wonder what the national timetable says?

Edit: beaten by the poster above – thanks for checking, CyrusWuff.

 

[yorkie]

The situation at Liverpool St sounds like what happens at Stratford. The main screens don't direct people to get the ex-Norwich service, but if you're on the platform, then the screens do show the train.

I conclude that there should be no issues at all regarding ticketing or boarding these services, and it's simply a case of crowd management and trying to direct local passengers to local services, which is understandable and makes sense.

 

[greatkingrat]

While GA are probably not too bothered about enforcing these restrictions, I suspect if you tried to use Oyster PAYG on a Virgin service to Watford Junction it would be a different story!

 

[jon0844]

If the train itself announces Tottenham Hale as a stop, I really do think RPIs would be struggling to give a PF or charge you for a new ticket to Harlow.

Given RPIs would likely wait until Tottenham Hale to begin doing checks, even if boarding at LST, I doubt this will be an issue anyway.

 

[Searle]

I *think* that the boards at Liverpool Street don't say Tottenham Hale, but the scrolling display on the outside of the train do say Tottenham Hale. It's possible to board a Stansted express from Totttenham Hale to Liverpool Street (because I have!)

 

[W230]

I *think* that the boards at Liverpool Street don't say Tottenham Hale, but the scrolling display on the outside of the train do say Tottenham Hale. It's possible to board a Stansted express from Totttenham Hale to Liverpool Street (because I have!)

I use this service regularly between LST and TOM. As already mentioned it does not show Tottenham Hale on the screens but does show it on the train. I didn't know that the northbound services actually stopped at TOM until once asking a member of staff at Liverpool Street when the next Tottenham Hale service was. They told me to get the Stansted Express and I've been using it in both directions ever since.

It does raise the point though about why Virgin get funny with Oyster between Euston and Watford or is is only with Oyster travelcards? And as mentioned, Southern suggesting Gatwick Express requires a more expensive ticket.

 

[yorkie]

While GA are probably not too bothered about enforcing these restrictions, I suspect if you tried to use Oyster PAYG on a Virgin service to Watford Junction it would be a different story!

Probably depends on the guard. Last time I travelled from Euston, the guard announced Watford Jn as a normal stop and thanked people for travelling with Virgin Trains.

A few years ago I boarded a set-down service at Nuneaton and the guard welcomed everyone who had boarded and apologised for the delay. In fact, we were on time, as the time specified was the arrival time.

It does raise the point though about why Virgin get funny with Oyster between Euston and Watford...

I'd say that Oyster PAYG isn't valid as the trains are not in any way announced as calling at Watford Jn from Euston, or at Euston from Watford. Quite unlike the Norwich & Stansted services.

or is is only with Oyster travelcards?

A Travelcard is a product. The medium does not matter. However one or two guards, not just Virgin, but notably EMT, have been known to invent their own rules and refuse to accept them, for example the website http://www.virgintrains.org.uk/ gives a particular example. Some people saw the potential for problems years ago...:

INFORMED SOURCES October 2005

It is up to the Train Operating Company to be able to read your Oyster card, which is a valid travel card. What counts is the message, not the medium.

TfL saw this coming and ticket offices at 38 National Rail stations are equipped to handle Oyster, A further 100 have APTIS ticket issuing machines with the ANT modification which allows them to issue Oyster cards. A large number of hand-held Oystercard readers have also been issued to London TOCs which readers may have seen in use.

So, the message is that if you roll up at a station with an Oyster travel card you are entitled to pay the boundary excess. If your friendly local TOC (and I must try this one the team at Welwyn Garden City) wants proof of the validity of the Travelcard it is up to the managers to provide the ticket office staff with readers

If they can't read an Oyster card, they have to accept the passengers word for it, it's as simple as that! And nearly all staff realise this, there's only a few brainless exceptions who do the industry and the vast majority of their colleagues no favours.

 

[Be3G]

I'd say that Oyster PAYG isn't valid as the trains are not in any way announced as calling at Watford Jn from Euston, or at Euston from Watford. Quite unlike the Norwich & Stansted services.

I beg to differ, to a certain extent. The Stansted services are in no way advertised as calling at Tottenham Hale to passengers waiting for trains at Liverpool Street, and the NRT also says they call at TOM northbound only to pick passengers up. It also wouldn't surprise me if the timetable posters (when did we last use those!) at LST don't list the Stansted Express either for trains to TOM, though I could be wrong. The announcements on the train don't have much of a bearing, as far as I'm concerned, in the same way that a guard making a manual announcement to tell passengers about an extra pick-up call wouldn't affect the train's validity with respect to tickets. It is therefore my opinion that the Express is not advertised as calling at Tottenham Hale in a northbound direction.

Or at least, that's the theory. Greater Anglia then confuse things by not showing the trains as pick-up-only in their timetables! So I'm not 100% certain what to think.

 

[causton]

Are the trains marked as pick-up only just so they will not be told by ticket sites, NRE etc to automatically get a Stansted Express? But GA don't mind too much if you find out another way and get on one? Just a thought...

 

[londonbridge]

A Travelcard is a product. The medium does not matter. However one or two guards, not just Virgin, but notably EMT, have been known to invent their own rules and refuse to accept them, for example the website http://www.virgintrains.org.uk/ gives a particular example. Some people saw the potential for problems years ago...:

What was the eventual outcome of that case?