The Cheapest ticket for your journey...

[30mog]

Are ticket sales staff still supposed to offer you the cheapest ticket for your journey?

If so. Supposing I wanted to do an off-peak day return from Crewe to Northampton, or vice versa, like tomorrow. A check I have just done on Raileasy suggests I would be asked for £60.40 to cover a choice of any off-peak trains, going direct. Or even more, to allow connections via Milton Keynes. I would like to bet the difference involved I am not offered a West Midlands Day Ranger for just £22.50? This assumes the ticket seller WOULD advise me MK or not alters the price. And I've opted not. WMDR provides the same as the £60.40 ticket. And this is not being offered the cheapest ticket available by a country mile isn't it?

Furthermore. Combining a WMDR with a Cheshire Day Ranger means Northampton to Liverpool or Manchester need never cost more than £43.50 for an 'off-peak day trip'.

 

[yorkie]

They should offer the lowest priced through ticket for the journey you wish to make.

So yes, I think they should offer the WDMR ticket for a journey wholly covered by that area.

But no, they should not offer a combination of tickets.

 

[crispy1978]

A number of times I have bought a open return from Scarborough to Blackburn/Accrington and they have tried to sell me the more expensive journey via Manchester, and not the cheaper version via Burnley. Someone less astute with train ticketing would pay the extra £15ish for the same journey (as the logical journey is to change at York or Leeds!)

 

[156441]

Some ticket offices are better than others. Manchester Airport for example always sell Tfgm 'evening rangers' where validity allows for journeys in the evening. Although this is quite an obvious one.

That said Northern put a reply up this morning on twitter saying staff will always offer the cheapest through ticket to a destination they didn't suggest that included rovers.
(The original question concerned splitting).

 

[yorkie]

A number of times I have bought a open return from Scarborough to Blackburn/Accrington and they have tried to sell me the more expensive journey via Manchester, and not the cheaper version via Burnley. Someone less astute with train ticketing would pay the extra £15ish for the same journey (as the logical journey is to change at York or Leeds!)

That's a clear breach of their obligations under the Ticketing & Settlement Agreement.

I would write to TPE in the first instance, and if they don't address it, you could also write to Northern (who are potentially suffering a loss as a result of this) as well as the DfT, ATOC and Passenger Focus.

TPE are very keen to throw the book at passengers (and their own staff, for that matter!) for allegedly not following the right procedures, but are not so keen to stick to the correct procedures themselves. Funny that, isn't it?

Don't let them get away with it.

 

[ryan125hst]

I was sold the cheapest ticket when going from Retford to Meadowhall (and return) a couple of weeks ago. One thing I wondered, though, is that the ticket was routed via Sheffield. This is the most likely route as Meadowhall is printed in Northern Rail's timetables at Retford (and is the route that I wanted to travel), but what about if a passenger wants to go via Doncaster? Will they know that it isn't valid unless they have asked for the "any permitted" ticket? Is selling this type of ticket common across the network?

 

[yorkie]

what about if a passenger wants to go via Doncaster? Will they know that it isn't valid unless they have asked for the "any permitted" ticket? Is selling this type of ticket common across the network?

The TSA requires the routeing options to be made clear to the passenger (unless the passenger requires a specific routeing).

As for what would happen, probably be asked to pay a change of route excess of £2.20 (assuming no Railcards held) each way, which could result in a dispute as the customer may not reasonably be expecting to be charged any more.

 

[Goatboy]

Perhaps we should be grateful they don't as I can't imagine the West Midlands Day Ranger would last long before being withdrawn if it turned out it was being sold in high numbers in leiu of comedy priced offpeak returns.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Are ticket sales staff still supposed to offer you the cheapest ticket for your journey?....

The cheapest through ticket, from origin to destination, for the journey being made.

....If so. Supposing I wanted to do an off-peak day return from Crewe to Northampton, or vice versa, like tomorrow. A check I have just done on Raileasy suggests I would be asked for £60.40 to cover a choice of any off-peak trains, going direct. Or even more, to allow connections via Milton Keynes. I would like to bet the difference involved I am not offered a West Midlands Day Ranger for just £22.50? This assumes the ticket seller WOULD advise me MK or not alters the price. And I've opted not. WMDR provides the same as the £60.40 ticket. And this is not being offered the cheapest ticket available by a country mile isn't it?...

I'm not sure how rangers and rovers fall into impartial retailing offhand, but, because of the way ticket office machines work (well, certainly Shere Smart and Cubic FasTis), knowledge would be required to offer the ranger. A good local clerk would know that the ranger is cheaper and probably offer that, but a clerk not local to the area would probably not offer it (especially if they have a queue to get through).

....Furthermore. Combining a WMDR with a Cheshire Day Ranger means Northampton to Liverpool or Manchester need never cost more than £43.50 for an 'off-peak day trip'.

Clerks don't have to offer splits, they can do but they are under no obligation, so to get this combination the likelihood is that you would need to ask for it specifically.

 

[Harpers Tate]

I suppose that researching ahead of travel, what the cheapest split/rover (etc) ticket needed is, is no different than checking web prices in advance for the cheapest shop selling {insert name of product here} before going out to buy it.....

Of course, that's competition between shops. It's only a parallel when we're considering different TOCs.

The problem (if one views the Railway as a single "product") is that the anomalies exist in the first place. I wouldn't claim they might all be done away with; but I do believe that there are many that could be. Retford/Meadowhall is presumably premium priced via Doncaster because it's partly ECML. And that, in my view, isn't really a good reason.

 

[yorkie]

The problem (if one views the Railway as a single "product") is that the anomalies exist in the first place. I wouldn't claim they might all be done away with...

There are more anomalies being created all the time, generally because some TOCs have increased their prices, so passengers have to find tickets priced by other operators that are valid on those routes.

The anomaly in those cases is that the more expensive ticket is too expensive, but the TOCs do not see it that way.

but I do believe that there are many that could be. Retford/Meadowhall is presumably premium priced via Doncaster because it's partly ECML. And that, in my view, isn't really a good reason.

Not an anomaly, IMO.

It's not uncommon for a 'high speed' route to have a premium. It happens with fares being cheaper from York to places like Middlesbrough & Hull if you avoid ECML services to Darlington & Hull, respectively.

The biggest known examples are on HS1 where a premium sometimes applies (so much so that some staff seem to blow a fuse if they see someone using a ticket marked anything other than "via HS1" and have even caused delays to trains and caused medical emergencies, due to getting aggressive at customers using HS1 in accordance with the itinerary provided when they booked their ticket). I can understand premiums applying to some extent, but the way SouthEastern and some of their staff act over this is disgusting.

 

[rdwarr]

Would there be a difference between these two scenarios? Say you're at Liverpool Street.

1) I wish to go to Stansted Airport. Please sell me the cheapest ticket.
2) Please sell me the cheapest ticket to Stansted Airport.

Arguably (1) should result in getting a ticket to Audley End which would be cheaper than a specific ticket to Stansted Airport.

 

[gunn13]

In the past week I've had to buy a number of tickets at the booking office window and each time either been wrongly advised or sold the wrong tickets.
It's frustrating as I know specifically what ticket I want and could easily get it from a TVM if it was possible.
After explaining exactly what ticket I wanted to the clerk at my local station, and what the easiest way was to find it, he still sold me the wrong ticket: the most expensive one and at no point gave me any of the options that he should have.
I had a ticket sale refused yesterday because I was told it can't be done and the only option, was again, the more expensive ticket.
Also had an unused single refused to be excessed to a return because the clerk was insistant that it can't be done with priv tickets and suggesting I should just buy a new single.
All different booking offices and different staff.

 

[yorkie]

Would there be a difference between these two scenarios? Say you're at Liverpool Street.

1) I wish to go to Stansted Airport. Please sell me the cheapest ticket.
2) Please sell me the cheapest ticket to Stansted Airport.

Arguably (1) should result in getting a ticket to Audley End which would be cheaper than a specific ticket to Stansted Airport.

Unfortunately not, you can't ask them to suggest a fare that is beyond your destination that happens to be cheaper. Though you could ask for alternative fares, to determine if it's cheaper, but if you asked for too many, it could be time consuming and annoy people in the queue behind you. That's why it's best to do the research in advance.

Fares to Stansted and Gatwick are designed to fool unsuspecting tourists to pay a premium, while people "in the know" can buy a much cheaper fare. If everyone had to pay the same fare, the lower priced fares would rise, unless the Government increases subsidy.

Many tourists probably think Gatwick Express and Stansted Express are premium ticket holder only services, would have no idea that they have to accept tickets in accordance with the national conditions, and assume you need a 'special' ticket for them. It would never occur to them that a Southern ticket, or a ticket to somewhere like Three Bridges, is valid on the Gatwick Express, or that you could use a ticket to somewhere like Elsenham or Audley End on the Stansted Express.

 

[ryan125hst]

you could use a ticket to somewhere like Elsenham or Audley End on the Stansted Express.

How does that work, given than Elsenham and Audley End are after Stansted Airport and the trains that serve them from London Liverpool Street (after a quick look on National Rail Enquiries) don't call at the airport? Is their an easement that permits doubling back?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Would there be a difference between these two scenarios? Say you're at Liverpool Street.

1) I wish to go to Stansted Airport. Please sell me the cheapest ticket.
2) Please sell me the cheapest ticket to Stansted Airport.

Arguably (1) should result in getting a ticket to Audley End which would be cheaper than a specific ticket to Stansted Airport.

If you asked them of the same clerk, no, you would not get a different result.

In the past week I've had to buy a number of tickets at the booking office window and each time either been wrongly advised or sold the wrong tickets.
It's frustrating as I know specifically what ticket I want and could easily get it from a TVM if it was possible.
After explaining exactly what ticket I wanted to the clerk at my local station, and what the easiest way was to find it, he still sold me the wrong ticket: the most expensive one and at no point gave me any of the options that he should have.
I had a ticket sale refused yesterday because I was told it can't be done and the only option, was again, the more expensive ticket.
Also had an unused single refused to be excessed to a return because the clerk was insistant that it can't be done with priv tickets and suggesting I should just buy a new single.
All different booking offices and different staff.

All of which should be mentioned to the respective TOCs, they won't do anything if you don't mention it (though mentioning it is no guarantee they will do anything about it). In some cases it may not be the clerk's fault, at other times it might well be.

When you were sold the wrong ticket, did you mention this to the clerk at the time?

How does that work, given than Elsenham and Audley End are after Stansted Airport and the trains that serve them from London Liverpool Street (after a quick look on National Rail Enquiries) don't call at the airport? Is their an easement that permits doubling back?

In terms of routeing, doubling back is 'passing through the same station twice'. For Audley End there are trains that would allow the route via Stansted Airport without double back. I'm not convinced Elsenham is as good an example because you cannot get from Stansted Airport to Elsenham without a double back (as far as I know), but I can see an argument for it being valid.

 

[sarahj]

If you ask, and the person selling the ticket agrees its valid (not easy), then they should sell you it. If someone asks for a split ticket, I will sell them it, and if I know the issues with such ticket, will mention it.

On sat morning a pass came up as asked for a ticket from S-H. It was expensive and asked if i knew of anyway making it cheaper. I sold him a S-tc and boundry 6 to H CDR. Saved him over six squid. (27-21). It was a simple split, easy to do and straight forward. The pass was not young (had a senoir discount), so perhaps not net savvy for searching cheap tickets. Thats fine. Pass also came up to me before departure.

However, on friday, i had a pass get on, from a station with a manned ticket office, and saw him board at the start point, with time, and get on front coach.
When i found him, he had a list on a sheet of paper and wanted to split his jouney into about 6 segements and wanted to know the fares on each, and other options. After looking up about 4, time was up, and he got off to head at lewes for a london bound train. That type miffs me off, wasting time, avoilded ticket office, seemed savy to know splits, but not look up prices, and of course failed to buy a ticket for his first journey of the split ticket journey.
So yes, we can do split tickets if asked, but this person was heading for a p fare with his actions and lack of planning.


SJ

 

[aleph_0]

However, on friday, i had a pass get on, from a station with a manned ticket office, and saw him board at the start point, with time, and get on front coach.
When i found him, he had a list on a sheet of paper and wanted to split his jouney into about 6 segements and wanted to know the fares on each, and other options. [snip]

Since the passenger has walked pass an open ticket office, isn't the passenger liable to pay the full single/return fare for the journey he is making, no need for him to worry about split-ticketing.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Since the passenger has walked pass an open ticket office, isn't the passenger liable to pay the full single/return fare for the journey he is making, no need for him to worry about split-ticketing.

Liable yes, but as other threads on this forum have shown, getting them to pay is another matter. Many guards choose the simpler option of asking for what they should have paid at the ticket office, which makes for a vicious circle.

 

[Starmill]

I've always found Guards to be most accommodating if you want a few splits or something unusual - IF you know what you want. You can't expect them to stand there looking things up for you given the obscurity of some good 'deals'.

As for ticket offices... well. I've had such rotten luck recently that I'm starting to think I might have to just avoid ticket offices at certain stations. One clerk would NOT even tell me which of two stations along different lines was cheapest the other day, even though I could have legitimately gone either way to reach a route valid on another ticket I'd already bought - and showed him, which I shouldn't have to! I've been cajoled into more expensive routes, unnecessary open returns and refused tickets with the name 'off-peak' on the grounds that "It's before 09:30" even though the train is not departing until after such time / the ticket is valid on trains departing sooner!

I've always done OK out of thinking you get what you ask for. If you ask for a WMDR, you should get one, but if you ask for a return to Northampton... Expect to get a return to Northampton. Then anything better is a plus. Unless you run into the 'You can only have a ticket from this station' brigade

 

[thelongestroad]

I know a few journeys where using rovers are cheaper than ordinary SVRs. The majority of that knowledge comes from customers themselves when booking journeys; although I do look at the manual for rovers when I can match up travel plans.

When offered as an alternative to the SVR the majority of passengers get confused.. it's not an excuse not to offer them but when you have to explain what the "boxes card thing" does and where it can be used there's a queue out the door.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Even within the same office you get clerks with differing levels of knowledge and interest in seeking cheaper alternatives, which can result in a large spread of prices depending on which clerk you get.

 

[wellhouse]

There can also be a problem when the cheapest ticket is sold when it is route-restricted, without checking with the passenger.

I've renewed a Huddersfield-Salford Crescent ticket in the past and been automatically given a Route Hebden Bridge Ticket when I wanted an Any Permitted (which is what the previous ticket was)

Fortunately I spotted it immediately.

 

[HST Power]

On a number of occasions, I have purchased 'walk-up' tickets during the Off-Peak, but the staff have attempted to charge me for an Anytime. Is is essential that I make myself clear that I don't need such flexibility, or should they recognise that?

 

[rdwarr]

On a number of occasions, I have purchased 'walk-up' tickets during the Off-Peak, but the staff have attempted to charge me for an Anytime. Is is essential that I make myself clear that I don't need such flexibility, or should they recognise that?

My experisnce at Stevenage is that, unless you specifically state which type of ticket you require, they will ask. So, after 09:30,
"Day return to London please",
"What time are you coming back?"

 

[HST Power]

My experisnce at Stevenage is that, unless you specifically state which type of ticket you require, they will ask. So, after 09:30,
"Day return to London please",
"What time are you coming back?"

I was also thinking of FCC - but my experiences have varied across the network, the majority being in favour of selling me the Anytime. Though I was actually asked what time I was travelling when I stopped to buy tickets at Letchworth last week.

 

[dave4jackie]

In the past week I've had to buy a number of tickets at the booking office window and each time either been wrongly advised or sold the wrong tickets.
It's frustrating as I know specifically what ticket I want and could easily get it from a TVM if it was possible.
After explaining exactly what ticket I wanted to the clerk at my local station, and what the easiest way was to find it, he still sold me the wrong ticket: the most expensive one and at no point gave me any of the options that he should have.
I had a ticket sale refused yesterday because I was told it can't be done and the only option, was again, the more expensive ticket.
Also had an unused single refused to be excessed to a return because the clerk was insistant that it can't be done with priv tickets and suggesting I should just buy a new single.
All different booking offices and different staff.

no way of doing that on a star machine

 

[maniacmartin]

Despite the fact that some TIS are technically capable of doing it, I was of the belief that technically singles should not be excessed into returns. Some clerks are happy to do this, but only if you bought the single in error and notify them immediately

 

[bb21]

Despite the fact that some TIS are technically capable of doing it, I was of the belief that technically singles should not be excessed into returns. Some clerks are happy to do this, but only if you bought the single in error and notify them immediately

Singles can be excessed into returns, however this should not be done at the end of the journey the single ticket covers, as the contract between the passenger and the railway industry has ended by that point.

Extracts from The Manual attached.

 

[gunn13]

All of which should be mentioned to the respective TOCs, they won't do anything if you don't mention it (though mentioning it is no guarantee they will do anything about it). In some cases it may not be the clerk's fault, at other times it might well be.

When you were sold the wrong ticket, did you mention this to the clerk at the time?

I didn't as it happens. Purely my own fault; was in a bit of a hurry and didn't even think to check the tickets until later which is when I realised.
I did, however, mention it the other day when I was passing through the station. Actually we had a bit of a laugh about it and the seemingly over complicated ticketing arrangements that exist. He apologised for not having sold me the cheaper on; he just didn't realise.
Nice, friendly clerk. As are most. Hope it didn't sound like I was moaning about the staff. Not my intention. My frustration is more with the complexities of ticketing and probably inadequate training.
I sell tickets. My training was ridiculously basic. We were told to always offer the cheapest ticket for the journey yet rarely shown how to sell the various cheaper ticket options that exist for most journeys. In fact I only know that many tickets exist because I'm interested in finding out myself outside of work.
--
The ticket I wanted excessed to a return was completely unused which is why I was surprised to be told no. Thinking about it though, it can be difficult to know wether it has been used a lot of the time so perhaps the clerk was erring on the side of caution?