Oyster Card early return charge

[Bletchleyite]

Oyster is going nowhere, and I have that from the mouth of a senior director of TfL.

Not surprising, as there are plenty of people who by virtue of their credit record cannot have a credit or debit card. So contactless, while I suspect it will replace Oyster for about 80%+ of users, will never replace it for everyone.

Neil

 

[Tetchytyke]

Oyster is going nowhere, and I have that from the mouth of a senior director of TfL.

I hope not, I don't want to see Oyster go anyway. Although I'm sure TfL were pretty adamant that no ticket offices would be closed either...

 

[Greenback]

I can't see Oyster going in the medium term, but in the longer term who knows what developments in both technology and passenger behaviour, are around the corner?

How many would have predicted the demise of paper tickets 25 years ago?

 

[DelayRepay]

Not surprising, as there are plenty of people who by virtue of their credit record cannot have a credit or debit card. So contactless, while I suspect it will replace Oyster for about 80%+ of users, will never replace it for everyone.

Neil

At some point we'll see contactless pre-pay credit cards. They'll be like Oyster except you'll be able to use them at any retailer. Once they're available there's little point in keeping Oyster going.

The technology's not quite ready though because pre-paid cards have to be processed online.

 

[Tom B]

I have a lot of friends who live outwith London but visit from time to time. Most of them have Oyster cards which they might use for a weekend once/twice/three times per year when they are here - and then keep them for next time, as I did when I didn't live in London. Makes it very easy to come off the train and down to the tube with no faffing about, so long as you leave a reasonable amount on when you leave for next time.

 

[bb21]

I wonder whether in the near future we will see significant fare differentials between those who use Contactless and those who use Oyster, with the Oyster option the pricier of the two, thereby potentially putting those most vulnerable financially at a disadvantage (just like the energy companies do atm).

 

[Deerfold]

Cash has now gone altogether from buses and paper tickets have pretty much left the Tube with these latest changes. It's taken a good few years, but I think it was always the intention.

There's still a substantial number of paper outboundary travelcards (including seasons) used.

 

[infobleep]

Oyster is going nowhere, and I have that from the mouth of a senior director of TfL. Oyster will change from it's current card centric model to the same back office model that contactless uses at some point in the future. When that happens there will be lots of possibilities for enhancement.

What is the difference between card centric and back office centric? Will they ever be able to add rail card discounts to contactless cards?

 

[Deerfold]

What is the difference between card centric and back office centric? Will they ever be able to add rail card discounts to contactless cards?

Back-office-centric allows a lot more complicated processing to be done as it doesn't all have to done in under a second as your card and reader are in touch - that's how they've managed to introduce weekly capping on contactless.

 

[MikeWh]

Will they ever be able to add rail card discounts to contactless cards?

It's difficult. TfL can't write anything to a contactless payment card. Therefore there is nothing on the card to indicate that a railcard should also be provided when inspected by an RPI. They do intend to offer longer period travelcards on CPCs, so the gold card discount may be possible, but there will probably need to be changes to the authentication of other railcards and/or changes to their terms.

 

[infobleep]

It's difficult. TfL can't write anything to a contactless payment card. Therefore there is nothing on the card to indicate that a railcard should also be provided when inspected by an RPI. They do intend to offer longer period travelcards on CPCs, so the gold card discount may be possible, but there will probably need to be changes to the authentication of other railcards and/or changes to their terms.

If they can't write to CPC, how would they store ticket details for longer season tickets? Perhaps they could introduce CPCs where writing to them is possible.

 

[Mojo]

If they can't write to CPC, how would they store ticket details for longer season tickets?

Because, as explained by Deerfold, it is done in the back office.

 

[Via Bank]

If they can't write to CPC, how would they store ticket details for longer season tickets? Perhaps they could introduce CPCs where writing to them is possible.

You cannot write to a CPC. That's not how the CPC standard works and it'd be a security nightmare.

What you'd probably do for Railcard discounts, etc. is to keep some record that "Ms J Doe, debit card number 1234 5678 9012 3456 (or EMV token XXXXXXX) holds a 16-25 Railcard that expires on 01/01/2017." Then when fares are calculated and deducted overnight, it would make that association and apply the discount.

"Season tickets" is a bit of a misnomer—it would presumably be bi-weekly/monthly/annual capping in the same way the current weekly capping system works. No need for a "ticket" in the same way price capping obviates the need for a paper Travelcard.

 

[Deerfold]

Because, as explained by Deerfold, it is done in the back office.

Quite - the reader takes the card details. The back office then has the chance to check if it needs to charge for the journey or if a season ticket it held.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

"Season tickets" is a bit of a misnomer—it would presumably be bi-weekly/monthly/annual capping in the same way the current weekly capping system works. No need for a "ticket" in the same way price capping obviates the need for a paper Travelcard.

Specifying a ticket allows you to choose a start date. I see no resaon why a ticket machine couldn't sell you one and record the details of your contactless card for the back office system to then check against.

 

[Mojo]

What you'd probably do for Railcard discounts, etc. is to keep some record that "Ms J Doe, debit card number 1234 5678 9012 3456 (or EMV token XXXXXXX) holds a 16-25 Railcard that expires on 01/01/2017." Then when fares are calculated and deducted overnight, it would make that association and apply the discount.

I believe that the current issue is more of a point of how would a Revenue Inspector verify that the person travelling would be entitled to the Railcard discount. The Revenue Inspection Device, a portable reader for ticket checking staff, cannot tell the Inspector whether the CPC has been touched in or not or anything else about the card, other than whether the card could not have been used to touch in (for example it has been barred from the system). I suppose they could log details to this and it could also be downloaded to the device in a similar manner, but I am not sure whether the devices have the capacity to store that much data, or whether it would be too much data being transferred between the devices and the back-office computers.

 

[MikeWh]

"Season tickets" is a bit of a misnomer—it would presumably be bi-weekly/monthly/annual capping in the same way the current weekly capping system works. No need for a "ticket" in the same way price capping obviates the need for a paper Travelcard.

Working out the cheapest cap where additional journeys have been made becomes increasingly complex as the time period increases. My understanding is that the season will be held on the database and taken into account when working out PAYG charges. The other issue with capping over a longer period is that the use of the money is not being made up front.

 

[infobleep]

The only issue with CPC and discounts would be that there would be yet another point where you'd have to get the discount reapplied, this being when your CPC expires and your issued a new one. That would mean yet another trip to a station that can do such things, which is fine if you live near a TFL staffed ticket office. Less so otherwise.

Of course by then they might have sorted out such issues and allowed people to add discounts from any station that is part of the TFL zonal system.

 

[drbdrb]

The Revenue Inspection Device, a portable reader for ticket checking staff, cannot tell the Inspector whether the CPC has been touched in or not or anything else about the card, other than whether the card could not have been used to touch in (for example it has been barred from the system).

Interesting. So if I get on the DLR tonight, when the ticket inspector waves their reader over my CPC all they will know is that I have a CPC, not whether I touched in 60 seconds earlier.

 

[simple simon]

Interesting. So if I get on the DLR tonight, when the ticket inspector waves their reader over my CPC all they will know is that I have a CPC, not whether I touched in 60 seconds earlier.

yes but if the computers do not see evidence of you having used it to pay fares then it could prove expensive!

 

[MP]

Why do we as a country treat tourists as some sort of cash cow that should always be milked to the maximum?

Simple. They don't get a vote. Althought that tactic could backfire as people can vote with their money. The beauty of a free market.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Simple. They don't get a vote. Althought that tactic could backfire as people can vote with their money. The beauty of a free market.

We are by no means the only country that charges tourists extra for things. Unlike many countries, for example, our National Museums and Galleries are free for everyone.

Neil