Oyster Auto top-up failed!

[AndyMaz]

I haven't used my Oyster card for a while before Monday, but I had to go to London for work and used the tube between Victoria, Stockwell and Borough.

Anyway, my balance fell below the threshold and attempted an auto top-up which also failed due to insufficient funds on my debit card.

I called the number given in the angry email I received demanding I pay them £20 and tried to explain I won't be using the Oyster card anymore and asked could they take back their £20 credit. "It doesn't work like that" was the only explanation I got, followed by demand for payment.

Reading the forums I see auto top-up is based on trust, and by ticking the box I've agreed to the Ts&Cs etc. So, to that end, I intend to update the balance and then cancel next week when I have funds, but what I was wondering was, what if I didn't settle and just let them cancel the card?

There's about £6 of my own credit and a £5 deposit, so not really worth the hassle of having to post them my card... basically they want me to pay £20 to cancel, which they'll then return to me by way of refund.... seems a bizarre process, but hey!

Yeah, so what happens if I don't rectify the £20 auto top-up fail and let them cancel the Oyster card?

 

[bb21]

Do you mean that you now have £6 credit on your Oyster after the £20 has already gone in, or that the £20 has not gone into your Oyster card at all?

 

[AndyMaz]

After the £20 was added there is £26 credit.

 

[bb21]

If you don't pay the £20 requested, I think eventually it will just be deducted from your credits and possibly with the card blacklisted. (Edit: I thought wrong. Blacklisted but credits not deducted. See Post 9.)

If you have no intention of using the card again and are not bothered with the £11 you could in theory get back then I don't think there is much you need to worry about.

That said, if I were you, I would pay up and either seek a refund when in London next or keep the card. It can be very handy at times.

 

[AndyMaz]

I'm just trying to think of a time I'll need it again, and I can't. I'll soon to surrender my Annual Season ticket between Kent and London as I won't be commuting anymore.

If I go to London it'll be as a day trip with friends/family, and I'll almost certainly buy a travelcard anyway.

 

[MikeWh]

I'm just trying to think of a time I'll need it again, and I can't. I'll soon to surrender my Annual Season ticket between Kent and London as I won't be commuting anymore.

If I go to London it'll be as a day trip with friends/family, and I'll almost certainly buy a travelcard anyway.

Unless the travelcard will be discounted using either a Network Railcard or Family and Friends Railcard you have a reason to keep Oyster. The daily caps are now lower than the respective travelcard rates. All zones (1-6) off-peak cap is £8.50, travelcard is £8.90.

 

[LexyBoy]

Unless the travelcard will be discounted using either a Network Railcard or Family and Friends Railcard you have a reason to keep Oyster. The daily caps are now lower than the respective travelcard rates. All zones (1-6) off-peak cap is £8.50, travelcard is £8.90.

Or is an outboundary Travelcard.

 

[AndyMaz]

I'll visit once a year, if that now.

Just wondering what would happen if I didn't pay the £20 and let them cancel the Oyster card. If nothing, I'll probably leave it rather than go through the rigmarole of getting a refund.

 

[island]

If you don't pay the £20 requested, I think eventually it will just be deducted from your credits and possibly with the card blacklisted.

They cannot deduct it from credit. The card will be hotlisted if the auto-top-up isn't settled and the next time it is touched on a fixed reader it will be permanently disabled. In those circumstances I don't know whether you would be able to get the £11ish back, but I assume you still would as long as you had an explanation.

 

[Paul Kelly]

angry email I received demanding I pay them £20

By "angry email" do you mean something like this:

Dear xxxxx

The pay as you go balance on Oyster card number 05644598756 was topped up with £20.00 on bus route 38 on 15/06/2012.

We are writing to let you know that we were unable to charge your credit or debit card ending in XXXXXXXXXXXX9876 for this amount.

You need to pay the outstanding balance now against top-up number 00793242337.

If you do not make this payment within three days your Oyster card may be stopped.

To make payment, please do the following:



* Visit https://oyster.tfl.gov.uk">https://oyster.tfl.gov.uk and sign in to your Oyster online account


* The payment screen is displayed including the details of the failed payment. Please enter the payment details and click 'Resettle'.




Please ensure that you do not add pay as you go credit to your Oyster card online or at a station, as this is a separate transaction and will not pay the outstanding Auto top-up amount.

If you experience problems while trying to settle this payment, please contact our Oyster helpline on 0845 330 9876 (8am - 8pm daily).

Please keep your Oyster card number safe. You may need to quote this number if you call the Oyster helpline.

Please ignore this email if you have recently reported your Oyster card lost or stolen and your replacement card did not include the above top-up value.

Yours Sincerely,
Aderemi Ademola
Oyster Customer Services Manager
tfl.gov.uk/oyster

Please do not reply to this message. Replies to this message are routed to an unmonitored mailbox. If you would like to contact us, please click here for more information.

I wouldn't call that angry, in fact I was pleasantly surprised the first time I received one of them, that they had allowed me to go into debt with them on the understanding that I would sort things out soon.

 

[bb21]

They cannot deduct it from credit. The card will be hotlisted if the auto-top-up isn't settled and the next time it is touched on a fixed reader it will be permanently disabled. In those circumstances I don't know whether you would be able to get the £11ish back, but I assume you still would as long as you had an explanation.

Hmm, I thought it was one or the other. Looks like I remembered the wrong one.

 

[AndyMaz]

By "angry email" do you mean something like this:



I wouldn't call that angry, in fact I was pleasantly surprised the first time I received one of them, that they had allowed me to go into debt with them on the understanding that I would sort things out soon.

The fact our opinion differs on the content within the email is neither here nor there.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

They cannot deduct it from credit. The card will be hotlisted if the auto-top-up isn't settled and the next time it is touched on a fixed reader it will be permanently disabled. In those circumstances I don't know whether you would be able to get the £11ish back, but I assume you still would as long as you had an explanation.

Not bothered about the £11. They can have it as an admin fee
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
OK, so I didn't top up my Oyster card. I don't see the point of topping up only to have to ask them for a refund minus any admin fees.

I just got the below email. Anyone know what these "further steps" are that they "MAY" need to take are?

Ref: xxx

Date 26.03.2013

Dear Mr xxx

We have tried to contact you about the Auto top-up instruction on your Oyster card on a number of occasions, without success.

As we have not received the outstanding amount of £20, we have now cancelled your Oyster card.

The outstanding payment will still need to be paid, even though your Oyster card has been cancelled. We will refund any remaining pay as you go balance on your Oyster card once you have paid.

If you do not pay the outstanding amount immediately, we may need to take further steps.

Please note that you cannot pay this amount by adding further top-ups to your Oyster card - whether at stations, Oyster Ticket Stops or online - as Auto top-up payments are separate transactions.

If you are unable to make this payment for any reason or have difficulties in doing so, please contact us as soon as possible on 0845 330 9876, quoting your Oyster card number or the reference number from the top of this email.

The quickest way to get through to us is to choose option 1 for adult card, option 4 for Auto top-up, and then option 1 to speak with an agent. Lines are open 08:00 to 20:00 daily.

We hope to hear from you soon.



George Foreman
Oyster Customer Services

 

[Mojo]

George Foreman, as in retired professional boxer and the face of slanted grills?!

I'd pay up if I were you...

 

[AndyMaz]

I reckon I could just about out run him now

Unless he throws one of his grills at me.

Seriously though, I'm intrigued as to what these "further steps" are. I notice the use of "may" in their threat.

 

[Be3G]

I haven't ever heard of this happening, but I suppose that theoretically, if someone had had an auto top-up applied but the payment couldn't be taken successfully, then used that credit up, TfL could seek recompense via debt collection agencies and the like. After all, TfL have all of your details as a card needs to be registered for auto top-up to work. However, the situation is muddier in your case seeing as there is more than the value of the failed auto top-up remaining on the Oyster card.

By the way, this is worth shouting from the rooftops: if you do end up deciding to call Oyster customer services, note that as of today they have a new inclusive/local-rate number: 0343 222 1234. (I was never keen on the need to spend money on phone calls to get them to sort out their mistakes, hence I used to go through the TfL switchboard, so it's worth people knowing about this.)

 

[soil]

I received the following sequence of emails:

6th December 2011:
We are writing to let you know that the pay as you go balance on Oyster card number 1234 was topped up with ?40.00 at Waterloo (Jubilee line entrance) station on 04/12/2011.

Unfortunately we were unable to charge your credit or debit card ending in XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX for this amount.

You need to pay the outstanding balance now against top-up number 1234

14th December 2011:

I am contacting you regarding the Auto top-up instruction currently on Oyster card 1234.

On 04/12/2011 your Oyster card was successfully credited for the value of £40.00. Unfortunately we were unable to obtain payment from your Credit / Debit card for this amount.

<strong>This payment must be resettled by 12 noon, on 08/12/2011 or your Oyster card may be cancelled.</strong>

28th December 2011:
Ref: 124435343

Date 28.12.2011

I am contacting you again about the outstanding payment on your Auto top-up instruction.

As you may be aware, your Oyster card was successfully credited with £40 on 4 December. We’ve recently tried to obtain this payment from your specified credit/debit card, but the transaction was not successful.

You will now need to pay this amount manually by midday on Thursday 29 December, in order to prevent your Oyster card from being cancelled.
I can see from your online account that you will need to amend your payment card details as your bank card has expired. Please be aware this is a separate transaction (accessible through the ’update payment card’ button) to resettling the outstanding amount.

3rd January 2012

We have tried to contact you about the Auto top-up instruction on your Oyster card on a number of occasions, without success.

As we have not received the outstanding amount of £40, we have now cancelled your Oyster card.

The outstanding payment will still need to be paid, even though your Oyster card has been cancelled. We will refund any remaining pay as you go balance on your Oyster card once you have paid.

If you do not pay the outstanding amount immediately, we may need to take further steps.



I never did pay, and no debt collectors/letters were forthcoming (partly I think because there was no value in the card, since the £40 had been cancelled).

I think my wife picked up the card at some point, and tried to use it (obviously she didn't know it had no balance/had been cancelled), and in doing so it flagged up something on the barriers at Waterloo Underground station, where it was confiscated by the TFL staff member there (they said it was 'stolen' I think or something like that) - nothing dramatic though.

 

[AndyMaz]

Would I be prevented from getting an Oyster card in the future, say, if I wanted to travel to London for pleasure rather than business?

 

[soil]

Would I be prevented from getting an Oyster card in the future, say, if I wanted to travel to London for pleasure rather than business?

Not in my experience. I have another Oyster registered, on the same login even, and they don't seem to care.

 

[AndyMaz]

Ordered online or bought at a station?

 

[soil]

They don't seem to care. I can manage my Oyster card online, despite having a 'bad' Oyster connected to the same login.

They certainly wouldn't stop you buying an Oyster at a station using cash/your card, even if they cared, their systems wouldn't be that smart.

But, pay them if you wish. Personally I just ignored the emails and forgot about it.

 

[AndyMaz]

I just don't want to pay them £20 and be out of pocket for 3 or 4 weeks. I know it's only £20, but that's a lot of money to me.

Do we know how long it takes to process a cancellation and refund, and what form the refund takes? I can't go to London to cancel using a yellow swipe point, either.

 

[Be3G]

The Oyster help desk do have the capability to issue refunds by cheque, although it's generally something that I think you have to ask for rather than it being offered.

 

[CheapAndNerdy]

Terms and Conditions for using Oyster can be found here.

There is a specific section relating to Auto top-up. Of interest is:

Failed payments

If your financial institution rejects a payment requested on the basis of your Recurring Payment Authority, TTL will send you an email (if an email address has been provided) and an agent of TTL will also attempt to contact you. If you do not correct the failed payment within two days TTL reserves the right to cancel your Oyster card which will disable its future use and cancel any Recurring Payment Authority associated with that Oyster card. If that occurs, you will need to arrange a new Oyster card. To get a new Oyster card, please visit any Tube Station ticket office or Oyster ticket stop. Alternatively you can order online at www.tfl.gov.uk/oyster, or contact telephone sales via the Oyster helpline 0845 330 9876.

There is no threat of legal action nor contractual penalty beyond the disabling of the card. I am not a lawyer, but as long as you haven't used any of the top-up in payment of a fare then surely there is no debt that could form the basis of any legal proceedings. Just to be clear, IANAL

 

[AndyMaz]

Nope, there was £6 of my own money on there prior to them adding the £20. So in total £26 on the card. I haven't used the card since.

I'm now just intrigued as to what the sentence about further action means

 

[daniel78]

It does seem a bit heavy-handed, sending reminders for payment while pointing out you can get your money refunded. Why can't they just reverse the credit added, with a courtesy email to explain as much? They can go through the procedure of chasing payment where a card ends up being more than a fiver below zero.

 

[island]

It isn't possible to "just reverse the credit added" because the Oyster system is asynchronous.

 

[bb21]

What about adding a negative top-up (not technically a top-up but I digress) the next time the card is used?

 

[MikeWh]

What about adding a negative top-up (not technically a top-up but I digress) the next time the card is used?

As you know, actions like that have to be sent to the server at a particular station. If you were trying it on then you'd just avoid that station.

In the OP's case I'd say that nothing more will happen now because when a human looks at the details they will see that there is no loss. The sequence of emails is targeted at the majority of cases where the card will be used and could run up significant losses before it is blacklisted.

 

[bb21]

As you know, actions like that have to be sent to the server at a particular station. If you were trying it on then you'd just avoid that station.

Yes, of course. I forgot about that.

 

[AndyMaz]

I'll see what happens. It's not cricket threatening possible "further action" though. That line in itself seems to have been put there to scare people into paying.