Overuse of "Waiting at Signal" button?

[physics34]

Some drivers i know use it even when its quite clear there is an issue ahead or there is a train in the berth in front. Force of habit or not using their brain cells im not quite sure...

 

[cin88]

I had one press the SG button today whilst stood in a bay platform knowing full well that they were timetabled to follow an express. All they had to do was look left and they'd have seen the reason for their delay

I'm not sure if it's an official instruction or not but Northern's drivers seem to hit SG whilst crawling up to red signals. I've seen them do this a few times whilst i've been shadowing other signallers.

 

[Starmill]

My first thought upon reading that is in reference to the Bridge at Alvechurch Station.

If you know, you know

I haven't heard that reference in years!

 

[bazzarati]

It's obviously horses for courses. I don't like the contact signaller and never use it. I just ring the driver. It's more efficient. If I have to wait to tell them something who knows what could happen in the time in-between with the potential for something else to take priority and then what if that action becomes forgotten? It shouldn't but it's huge pressure you're sometimes managing and would be easy to do. Drivers who say you shouldn't try phoning on the move should spend a day in my shoes and they'd phone every driver immediately because the risks are real and I'd never forgive myself if I forgot and something bad happened.

 

[greatkingrat]

It's obviously horses for courses. I don't like the contact signaller and never use it. I just ring the driver. It's more efficient. If I have to wait to tell them something who knows what could happen in the time in-between with the potential for something else to take priority and then what if that action becomes forgotten? It shouldn't but it's huge pressure you're sometimes managing and would be easy to do. Drivers who say you shouldn't try phoning on the move should spend a day in my shoes and they'd phone every driver immediately because the risks are real and I'd never forgive myself if I forgot and something bad happened.

And what if you cause something bad to happen by distracting the driver at a critical moment?

 

[endofthetunnel]

It's obviously horses for courses. I don't like the contact signaller and never use it. I just ring the driver. It's more efficient. If I have to wait to tell them something who knows what could happen in the time in-between with the potential for something else to take priority and then what if that action becomes forgotten? It shouldn't but it's huge pressure you're sometimes managing and would be easy to do. Drivers who say you shouldn't try phoning on the move should spend a day in my shoes and they'd phone every driver immediately because the risks are real and I'd never forgive myself if I forgot and something bad happened.

It’s your way of working, but I’d much rather have to tell the odd driver ‘oh sorry mate I don’t need to talk to you anymore’ than be ringing drivers on the move all the time.
Only one of the two can get me in trouble!

Do you really just call a driver whenever you want for a trespass caution? Or do you mean you’re not proactive and you just wait until they ring you in all situations except for one’s that need an urgent call?

I’m genuinely interested because I’ve never known or seen a signaller just call every driver all the time ‘because the risks are real’

 

[dk1]

And what if you cause something bad to happen by distracting the driver at a critical moment?

We are very good at multi-tasking in cab

 

[lineclear]

It’s your way of working, but I’d much rather have to tell the odd driver ‘oh sorry mate I don’t need to talk to you anymore’ than be ringing drivers on the move all the time.
Only one of the two can get me in trouble!

Do you really just call a driver whenever you want for a trespass caution? Or do you mean you’re not proactive and you just wait until they ring you in all situations except for one’s that need an urgent call?

I’m genuinely interested because I’ve never known or seen a signaller just call every driver all the time ‘because the risks are real’

I'm intrigued as well. Anything that needs it gets signal protection. Forgetting to speak to a driver results in a delay at worst.

 

[Sly Old Fox]

We are very good at multi-tasking in cab

Though the way it’s going none of us will be allowed to soon.

No problem here answering a call on the move, if I am just coming up to a red I’ll wait and stop before I answer but any other time is fine.

 

[dk1]

Though the way it’s going none of us will be allowed to soon.

No problem here answering a call on the move, if I am just coming up to a red I’ll wait and stop before I answer but any other time is fine.

Sometimes wait but if I’m going slow enough just coming up I’ll pick up. With the newer fleet there’s so much else often going on approaching a red like screens lighting up if a pass com is activated or other warning alarms. You just learn to stay focused & as I mentioned earlier, RETB set us in good stead for communicating at all times with the signaller regardless of where you were.

 

[Sunset route]

When I’m dealing with a big failure I deal with each driver in turn as required as more than one train might running through the failed area under caution. If it’s just one driver I need to talk to the I use the contact signaller function. If I need to replace a signal to a more restrictive aspect (usually a late instruction from control) then I use the urgent function. Multiple SGs when I’m up to my neck in cautioning multiple trains are very distracting. But that’s the nature of the beast.

 

[uww11x]

I would advise you to ignore your “Delays Attribution Manager”. It won’t show up anywhere whether you’ve hit SG or not, and has nothing whatsoever to do with delay attribution, as discussed above.

Delays are irrelevant to you anyway in terms of “making an effort”. The only effort you need to make is to not have any any incidents…

That is not the case. Pressing the SG does show up on reports which Network Rail can run. Many disputes have been won with evidence of the SG being pressed by the driver. Delays are relevant to drivers and form KPI's in many companies.

 

[Krokodil]

That is not the case. Pressing the SG does show up on reports which Network Rail can run. Many disputes have been won with evidence of the SG being pressed by the driver. Delays are relevant to drivers and form KPI's in many companies.

I'd prefer it if PQA drivers concentrated solely on driving safely rather than on trying to appease TDA.

 

[43066]

Delays are relevant to drivers and form KPI's in many companies.

Disagree.

How are delays “relevant to drivers” in this context? We certainly aren’t given KPIs (other than not screwing up!). Nobody wants to run late, of course, and you may be asked to explain why for delay attribution reasons, but there’s no pressure applied.

In years of being asked for delay reports, I’ve never once been asked whether I pressed SG…

 

[Krokodil]

In years of being asked for delay reports, I’ve never once been asked whether I pressed SG…

When we (as guards) were first given an app for reporting delay causes, it required a ridiculous amount of detail, including (in the case of an "infrastructure: waiting at signal" delay) "has the driver contacted the signaller". To which the answer was generally "how the bloody hell should I know?". That field got ditched pretty quickly. At the end of the day it's not the traincrew's fault if the signaller forgets to pull off, except where TRTS buttons are provided (and delay logs will note if the TRTS wasn't pressed in good time and an effort will be made to find out why).

 

[uww11x]

Disagree.

How are delays “relevant to drivers” in this context? We certainly aren’t given KPIs (other than not screwing up!). Nobody wants to run late, of course, and you may be asked to explain why for delay attribution reasons, but there’s no pressure applied.

In years of being asked for delay reports, I’ve never once been asked whether I pressed SG…

Quite common on the freight side of things. Commonly NR will claim an FE or FC delay in a yard during relief if the Driver hasn't pressed SG.

 

[ComUtoR]

Quite common on the freight side of things. Commonly NR will claim an FE or FC delay in a yard during relief if the Driver hasn't pressed SG.

If the GSMR isn't setup; SG doesn't work. If you are in a yard, typically you wouldn't have the GSMR setup.

Do freight yards allow for radio setup ? Ours is very limited to exit signals.

 

[43066]

If the GSMR isn't setup; SG doesn't work. If you are in a yard, typically you wouldn't have the GSMR setup.

Do freight yards allow for radio setup ? Ours is very limited to exit signals.

My thoughts exactly!

 

[Horizon22]

A lot of this thread is why signallers need to go on cab rides and why drivers need to visit boxes and ROCs! I sit in the middle and blame both

 

[dk1]

A lot of this thread is why signallers need to go on cab rides and why drivers need to visit boxes and ROCs! I sit in the middle and blame both

As an ex-signaller in the late 80s I’ve always respected that side of things & had many a signaller ride up front with me since & remaining good friends to this day. It does sadden me how little some of my now driving colleagues care or understand about signalling or how it works.

 

[ComUtoR]

A lot of this thread is why signallers need to go on cab rides and why drivers need to visit boxes and ROCs! I sit in the middle and blame both

On my box visits Signallers have stated that I should press the SG and they have no issues and would rather have it as sometimes they do forget.

I was in a meeting late last year with a Signaller and again, no issues with SG and it again, being encouraged.

 

[Horizon22]

As an ex-signaller in the late 80s I’ve always respected that side of things & had many a signaller ride up front with me since & remaining good friends to this day. It does sadden me how little some of my now driving colleagues care or understand about signalling or how it works.

Obviously for newer drivers things like Covid have prevented such exchanges but I always think they should be encouraged, where possible.

 

[dk1]

Obviously for newer drivers things like Covid have prevented such exchanges but I always think they should be encouraged, where possible.

yes, some mutual respect is always a good thing. Unfortunately many are very insular.

 

[43066]

A lot of this thread is why signallers need to go on cab rides and why drivers need to visit boxes and ROCs! I sit in the middle and blame both

I completely agree (and I obviously blame the signallers).

As an ex-signaller in the late 80s I’ve always respected that side of things & had many a signaller ride up front with me since & remaining good friends to this day. It does sadden me how little some of my now driving colleagues care or understand about signalling or how it works.

Blimey, I was born in the 80s, and I’m knocking on the door of middle age now. You’re a properly old sweat, excellent work. What was it like driving steam locos during the blackout conditions of WW2?

On my box visits Signallers have stated that I should press the SG and they have no issues and would rather have it as sometimes they do forget.

I was in a meeting late last year with a Signaller and again, no issues with SG and it again, being encouraged.

Also agree. It’s very much an optional thing.

It’s funny how it’s immediately obvious who works in the industry and who doesn’t.

 

[LowLevel]

That is not the case. Pressing the SG does show up on reports which Network Rail can run. Many disputes have been won with evidence of the SG being pressed by the driver. Delays are relevant to drivers and form KPI's in many companies.

Yawn. Delay minutes form manager's KPIs and are a manager's problem. I had a discussion once with a manager about how a wholly unavoidable delay had caused a load of snowballed reactionary minutes and blown the budget as it were.

I pointed out that as a professional train guard I try my best to avoid delays, working as efficiently as possible, but I don't give two figs about *delay minutes*, which are entirely their job to chuck around, not mine, and especially when it comes to arguing cost centre of the same sodding company pays for them.

This caused quite some consternation as it clearly hit home that something that is quite important if you happen to be a responsible manager with a budget to look after (chasing attributed delay minutes) are an absolute irrelevance to the staff involved.

If someone starts talking to me about delay minutes, especially when it comes to safety incidents, I intentionally glaze over. If they start talking about how we work to avoid safety incidents in the first place, they have my rapt attention.

 

[dk1]

Blimey, I was born in the 80s, and I’m knocking on the door of middle age now. You’re a properly old sweat, excellent work. What was it like driving steam locos during the blackout conditions of WW2?

Cheeky bloody kids!!!

Was one of the youngest signallers in the late 80s as was still 18 when I passed out. Hadn’t been a crossing keeper 5mins after my junior box lad days & a manager offered me the chance after seeing my potential lol. Took another ten years & becoming a clerical officer (in useless TSSA for a while) before taking the plunge into train driving. Kettles where just about extinct by then.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Feb 2023 ==

Was still a plethora of semaphore signalling on my patch when beginning my solo driving in 1999. Definitely no SG available then & the signals were ‘ballast activated’ particularly during inclement weather when using the darn SPTs grrrr!!!

 

[Annetts key]

A lot of this thread is why signallers need to go on cab rides and why drivers need to visit boxes and ROCs! I sit in the middle and blame both

And signallers, drivers and other grades need to see what other important staff do. So yes, drivers, guards, P.Way, D&P (electricians) all need to visit signal boxes/signalling centres etc. And also visit signalling equipment rooms (would be good for them all to go trackside as well, but that’s harder to do these days). An alternative would be for them to visit S&T training facilities, which have all the equipment, but no trains

Just as signallers, S&T, P.Way and other grades need to see the drivers perspective from a cab. The view from a cab is very different compared to walking along the track.

Very briefly (I think it only happened for a month), the railway in my area held appreciation days (classroom only unfortunately) where an experienced person from one engineering department gave a talk to staff from other engineering disciplines. Including answering questions. This worked really well. I would like to see this brought back and expanded.

Oh, and S&T blame both signallers and drivers!

Signallers for their silliness. For example, a S&T team arrive on a track circuit failure to find out that there is a train/loco/wagon on the line...

Signaller reports a fault, unable to call the route for signal X to signal Y. Then the S&T find out they had a flank protection point locked in the wrong position…

CCTV not working at a level crossing, signaller/crossing keeper complains that they can’t clear the signals. S&T team leader asks “are you pressing the ‘picture’ button for the CCTV as well as the ‘crossing clear’ button? Signaller/crossing keeper says no, the CCTV is not working. S&T says, yes, but the signalling controls still need you to press the buttons in the correct sequence. When tried, the signals now clear

Drivers for their mistakes as well. One example, a driver stopped their train so short of the signal, that the train had not made it onto the track circuit that has to be occupied in order for the signal to release from red. Driver was advised that the train needed to be moved forward 20 metres… When the train moved forward, just like magic, the signal cleared (I won’t say how long the train had been waiting…)

Driver reports a TPWS activation, but insists that they were not exceeding the set speed. Control is requested to obtain a download from the train (which always appears to take at least a week to appear…). When the TPWS system is checked on site, the equipment is found to be working correctly and as per the design. And many, many other trains have passed over the same equipment without problems…

Sometimes guards, station staff or other staff also.
Reports of TRTS / TRS buttons not working for example. Not always, but mostly, the S&T find no cause and it tests okay, plus, no further reports are received for months afterwards…

Yawn. Delay minutes form manager's KPIs and are a manager's problem. I had a discussion once with a manager about how a wholly unavoidable delay had caused a load of snowballed reactionary minutes and blown the budget as it were.

I pointed out that as a professional train guard I try my best to avoid delays, working as efficiently as possible, but I don't give two figs about *delay minutes*, which are entirely their job to chuck around, not mine, and especially when it comes to arguing cost centre of the same sodding company pays for them.

This caused quite some consternation as it clearly hit home that something that is quite important if you happen to be a responsible manager with a budget to look after (chasing attributed delay minutes) are an absolute irrelevance to the staff involved.

Yeah, on the engineering side, our management have delay minutes, KPIs, and other related statistics near the top of their briefing agenda.

An infrastructure failure on a main line almost always causes at least some disruption. It’s always fun when the failure stops all traffic on a main line and you get briefed on the train delay figures.

When such a failure occurs, in the past, a S&T fault team leader would get half a dozen phone calls all asking stupid questions. {Are you on site yet? What part has failed? How long will it take to fix? All while they were still travelling to the area of the failure, hence the answers were along the lines “I dunno, I don’t have a crystal ball!”}. Now an ARM is appointed (sorry, the acronym words escape me at the moment, but the last part is I think Response Manager) who instead asks all the questions.

Staff try to do their job to the best of their ability and more to the point, good teams try to do it as safety as possible, as quickly and efficiently as possible. No one wants trains to be stopped or delayed any more than necessary, so delay minutes, cancellations, KPIs etc are not important to us in the real world. What is more important, is accurate information, spares being available if needed, and access to the equipment (will the signaller grant a line block, will control allow the signaller to stop the trains so that they can grant a line block). Delay minutes, cancellations, KPIs etc are irrelevant if we are told, sorry your line block request will have to wait until a gap is found in the service. And we then spend ages watching train after train getting delayed…

 

[Horizon22]

When such a failure occurs, in the past, a S&T fault team leader would get half a dozen phone calls all asking stupid questions. {Are you on site yet? What part has failed? How long will it take to fix? All while they were still travelling to the area of the failure, hence the answers were along the lines “I dunno, I don’t have a crystal ball!”}. Now an ARM is appointed (sorry, the acronym words escape me at the moment, but the last part is I think Response Manager) who instead asks all the questions.

Staff try to do their job to the best of their ability and more to the point, good teams try to do it as safety as possible, as quickly and efficiently as possible. No one wants trains to be stopped or delayed any more than necessary, so delay minutes, cancellations, KPIs etc are not important to us in the real world. What is more important, is accurate information, spares being available if needed, and access to the equipment (will the signaller grant a line block, will control allow the signaller to stop the trains so that they can grant a line block). Delay minutes, cancellations, KPIs etc are irrelevant if we are told, sorry your line block request will have to wait until a gap is found in the service. And we then spend ages watching train after train getting delayed…

Asset Recovery Manager?

Anyway it never helps when everyone tries to pile in - as you say always best to have a "nominated contact".

 

[Annetts key]

Asset Recovery Manager?

Yes, you could be right

 

[tiptoptaff]

Many posts behind, but reference to the CONTACT SIGNALLER and calling the wrong box because you're in the wrong TD berth or GSM-R cell, if you press the tick, rather than the call button, it calls the signaller that sent the message, not the controlling signaller the GSM-R thinks you're under.