Overcrowding during Easter

[JonathanH]

Really? Thought that there's normally been a fair service up in Central Scotland on Boxing Day (albeit nothing in 2022, due to strike action).

...and nothing on New Year's Day to make up for it.

 

[Starmill]

...and nothing on New Year's Day to make up for it.

Lots of local routes would be better off going that way. Urban bus services do precisely that all over the place.

 

[Llanigraham]

Maybe the RAIB and ORR should insist that the correct procedures are followed rather than banning a method of work that has been deemed safe and acceptable for decades.

And how do they do that?
Work teams have always been told the proper way to do things but then ignore it; I cite Margam as a perfect example of that, and there are plenty of other examples in the RAIB library.

 

[Horizon22]

You’re right that you will get people if the price is right, however for many people that price is going to be *extremely* high, especially in industries where people are otherwise well paid - such as the railway.

In my experience this applies just as equally to other religions too.

Yes people don’t tend to want to turn up in Xmas Day until you’re offering at least double time, and normally more. Part of this is what was historically offered for the small amount of people required.

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The BML was rammed last night. I was on an early evening Eastbourne - LBG service which was like a pre Covid rush hour tube train…

Again, time of the day. Early evening out of London is a classic weekend peak and it can be rather extreme.

 

[43066]

Yes people don’t tend to want to turn up in Xmas Day until you’re offering at least double time, and normally more. Part of this is what was historically offered for the small amount of people required.

1.5 times for a standard overtime day is fairly common, so double time for Xmas day would look a little stingy!

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Again, time of the day. Early evening out of London is a classic weekend peak and it can be rather extreme.

This was heading in (which I assume is what you meant). Lots had been cycling/walking on the Seven Sisters, then a load of (leathered) Plumpton race goers joined the train!

 

[baz962]

1.5 times for a standard overtime day is fairly common, so double time for Xmas day would look a little stingy!

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This was heading in (which I assume is what you meant). Lots had been cycling/walking on the Seven Sisters, then a load of (leathered) Plumpton race goers joined the train!

Twas times four at my last place for boxing day. Or a combination of days in lieu and a smaller enhancement.

 

[dk1]

1.5 times for a standard overtime day is fairly common, so double time for Xmas day would look a little stingy!

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This was heading in (which I assume is what you meant). Lots had been cycling/walking on the Seven Sisters, then a load of (leathered) Plumpton race goers joined the train!

My TOC asks for 4-6 night shift volunteer drivers on Boxing Day. The offer of double time plus a day in lieu I never feel is very generous at at all.

 

[Class 170101]

And in Avanti's case also buses from Rugby to Kettering to connect with EMR.

LNW also had buses going from Milton Keynes all stops to Watford and onto Potters Bar as well. And before anyone say's "Why didn't they send them to Stanmore?" - Jubilee and part of Met were also closed for engineering.

I found it a bit odd that they went to Potters Bar rather than say a station on the MML and the M25

Good luck with finding paths up the Chiltern line to do that now though, unless you're going to kill a number of the Chiltern services and basically tell the passengers at those stations they're going to be on a bus because you don't want to disrupt some Manchester travellers - and a few rivet counters who want the novelty of Voyagers running off route.

Not sure Chiltern is as busy as it was pre-pandemic in terms of number of services

We’ll never see the likes of that again. Not that I’m too bothered as did it for the, as you say, novelty & over it now.

Not sure it helped this time that Lancaster to Glasgow Central and Edinburgh was closed - Carstairs project related though why Avanti only chosde to run two return trips between Glasgow and Carlisle via the GSW is beyond me and seems like a poor effort.

You'd path them on Sundays, it was only one path per hour and Chiltern's Sunday service is quite thin.

I think you would be able to path it Monday to Saturday as Chiltern, as has been said, run fewer services now than pre-pandemic.

Isn't the issue though that the line required to reach Euston has been closed and dug up for HS2?

See below ThePlanner comment

HS2 only need the high side platforms, Watford North and other track renewal is driving the all lines elements.

Not relevant for the Blockade Buster

I read Bletchleyite's comment as being about the New North Mainline being truncated due to HS2 works.

Though - subject to paths - it would be possible to run Greenford - Ealing and then pick up the route to the WCML from the GWML at Old Oak Common to Willesden, which I presume is what was used with those crowdbusters.

It was but see below for my suggestion

I'm talking about the line connecting the Chiltern line to Euston, not this weekend's works...

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It was and I thought they did go via the NNML.

They did

It was for those, as I posted, it could be done (subject to paths) via Greenford and Ealing - but I suspect with Crossrail now live, such paths don't exist.

This might be an issue

The fact the whole of Euston is closed as explained by The Planner is another reason why such a service wasn't an option on this occasion.

But Voyagers are cleared for Paddington I believe

No, they went via Acton and up the bank via South West Sidings.

Correct, but my view would be would there have there been hourly paths from Nuneaton or Coventry via Chiltern lines then South Greenford and thence the GW Relief Lines to Paddington. Passengers for Euston to be directed via the Hammersmith and City / Circle Lines to Euston Square for London Euston. They might only be 10 car Voyagers but thats better than nothing.

The biggest problem I fear would be a lack of West Coast Voyagers for this task as well as for Carlisle to Glasgow Central and serving Crewe to Chester and Holyhead.

 

[Horizon22]

* Increased levels of risk aversion in terms of overruns.
* Higher level of engineering standards, often with more complex kit needing higher standards of installation tolerance / set up
* More stringent safety rules across the board (and not just about what can be done under traffic or not)
* in some cases, engineering perfection trumping ease of installation during the specification stages
* the slow unlearning of how things can be done

That’s interesting because I’ve seen overruns becoming almost inevitable on the Monday morning start-up…

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1.5 times for a standard overtime day is fairly common, so double time for Xmas day would look a little stingy!

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This was heading in (which I assume is what you meant). Lots had been cycling/walking on the Seven Sisters, then a load of (leathered) Plumpton race goers joined the train!

Ah well Brighton is one of the destinations typically busy with day trippers so the same applies.

 

[43066]

Twas times four at my last place for boxing day. Or a combination of days in lieu and a smaller enhancement.

I guess that’s going to be approaching £1500 per day, so will start to look tempting for some. Plus a cab to work and home again, of course!

My TOC asks for 4-6 night shift volunteer drivers on Boxing Day. The offer of double time plus a day in lieu I never feel is very generous at at all.

I suppose a Boxing Day night shift starting at 10pm or later might not impact too much on peoples’ celebrations, especially for those who live locally and haven’t traveled elsewhere. Agreed time *2 and a day in lieu isn’t mega generous.

 

[Horizon22]

But Voyagers are cleared for Paddington I believe

Correct, but my view would be would there have there been hourly paths from Nuneaton or Coventry via Chiltern lines then South Greenford and thence the GW Relief Lines to Paddington. Passengers for Euston to be directed via the Hammersmith and City / Circle Lines to Euston Square for London Euston. They might only be 10 car Voyagers but thats better than nothing.

Even in this hypothetical running through Greenford (which Chiltern don’t even sign now with their parliamentary gone, let alone another TOC) AND finding suitable paths you’d still have had issues with platform occupancy considering the Elizabeth Line core was closed so services were terminating at Paddington

 

[A0]

I found it a bit odd that they went to Potters Bar rather than say a station on the MML and the M25

I assume since Thameslink was already taking passengers from Bedford, the decision was to spread some of the load onto the GN lines.

The only possibles for the MML would have been Radlett or Elstree & Borehamwood.

Radlett's not great for accessibility for coaches and Elstree's not much better. Perhaps tgat's why Potters Bar was chosen ?

 

[Class 170101]

Even in this hypothetical running through Greenford (which Chiltern don’t even sign now with their parliamentary gone, let alone another TOC) AND finding suitable paths you’d still have had issues with platform occupancy considering the Elizabeth Line core was closed so services were terminating at Paddington

Not aware Chiltern drove the Blockade Busters.

In terms of paths GW must think there are paths or wouldn't be contempolating running via Chilterns due to Nunehamk Viaduct issues, see that thread for more comments. However yes Crossrail terminating at Paddington High Level would have certainly added to the problem.

 

[A0]

Not aware Chiltern drove the Blockade Busters.

In terms of paths GW must think there are paths or wouldn't be contempolating running via Chilterns due to Nunehamk Viaduct issues, see that thread for more comments. However yes Crossrail terminating at Paddington High Level would have certainly added to the problem.

Bit in bold - any evidence for that ?

 

[The Planner]

Correct, but my view would be would there have there been hourly paths from Nuneaton or Coventry via Chiltern lines then South Greenford and thence the GW Relief Lines to Paddington. Passengers for Euston to be directed via the Hammersmith and City / Circle Lines to Euston Square for London Euston. They might only be 10 car Voyagers but thats better than nothing.

The biggest problem I fear would be a lack of West Coast Voyagers for this task as well as for Carlisle to Glasgow Central and serving Crewe to Chester and Holyhead.

An hourly 10 car Voyager would cause just as many problems as journey planners would flag it as the quickest journey to/from Euston therefore causing just as many problems in terms of passengers.

 

[Class 170101]

Bit in bold - any evidence for that ?

https://twitter.com/PaulCliftonBBC/status/1644993366537523200

 

[bramling]

1.5 times for a standard overtime day is fairly common, so double time for Xmas day would look a little stingy!

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This was heading in (which I assume is what you meant). Lots had been cycling/walking on the Seven Sisters, then a load of (leathered) Plumpton race goers joined the train!

LU has been very quiet today in my experience. Every LU train I went on today was virtually empty.

So certainly not “everything rammed” as some people seem to want us all to believe.

 

[43066]

LU has been very quiet today in my experience. Every LU train I went on today was virtually empty.

So certainly not “everything rammed” as some people seem to want us all to believe.

My experience too - the parts of the tube and the southeastern network I travelled on today were a lot quieter than the last few days. Not helped by the considerably worse weather we had for much of the day, of course - by far the worst day of the long weekend - including some fairly biblical rain over central London during the mid afternoon.

 

[Krokodil]

I’m by no means an expert on the financial side of how these things work, but intuitively I can’t imagine a charter TOC being paid to lay on scheduled relief services for a few days over a bank holiday weekend is ever going to be commercially viable, either for the operator itself or for the railway? It would involve massive complexity in terms of planning, pathing, getting the rolling stock into the right places etc. only to run a handful of services carrying a few thousand people.

It will always be far cheaper/less complex to simply lay on buses.

NR contracted WCRC to run a Peterborough - Liverpool Street service when the southern ECML was closed recently. Not forgetting the WCML crowd-busters for the Queen's funeral. The WCRC one was hired by NR, the LSL one was hired by Avanti.

To be fair, the UK is the only country not running any railway services on Boxing

It's not a public holiday in many countries so why wouldn't they run a service? Offer a decent overtime rate and you'll have no difficulty resourcing a skeleton service. Are you prepared to cover the cost through your taxes though?

It's clearly not appropriate where the Sunday service is no service whatsoever

Then the Sunday service is the problem in its own right.

 

[bramling]

My experience too - the parts of the tube and the southeastern network I travelled on today were a lot quieter than the last few days. Not helped by the considerably worse weather we had for much of the day, of course - by far the worst day of the long weekend - including some fairly biblical rain over central London during the mid afternoon.

Yes I got soaked. But on the plus side I had Regent’s Park virtually to myself for my walk, which is quite a novelty for a bank holiday. I do get the feeling that over these longer bank holiday periods boredom sets in for many people. So in essence the main premise of this thread is a bit of overcrowding at a few very specific times.

 

[irish_rail]

Well the Wofe GWR routes was predictably absolutely rammed today, passengers being turned away from boarding some trains.

 

[dk1]

I suppose a Boxing Day night shift starting at 10pm or later might not impact too much on peoples’ celebrations, especially for those who live locally and haven’t traveled elsewhere. Agreed time *2 and a day in lieu isn’t mega generous.

I would need a lot more than that to stay sober on Boxing Day. In fact I don’t know after 38 years of anything that would persuade me to work that day or the one before

 

[deltic]

Now working from home is accepted by many office based businesses, some are allowing staff to work on bank holidays and take another day off instead. There is also increasing push back on compulsory Christmas shut down that some companies operate with some people wanting to work and take more time off in the summer or for another religious related holiday.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Lots of local routes would be better off going that way. Urban bus services do precisely that all over the place.

Scotland is a bit different in NYD demand because the 2nd is a bank holiday too. You could get away with no service in England before 1200, but people need to get home from new year trips.

Urban buses are different because other non car options like cycling or a taxi are much more viable.

 

[The exile]

As a proportion of the whole country that's absolutely accurate.

And, to be fair, has been for a very long time!

 

[Bald Rick]

That’s interesting because I’ve seen overruns becoming almost inevitable on the Monday morning start-up…

Your patch has been suffering from that problem of late.

 

[Falcon1200]

To be fair, the UK is the only country not running any railway services on Boxing and most European countries even run Christmas Day service.

Really? Thought that there's normally been a fair service up in Central Scotland on Boxing Day (albeit nothing in 2022, due to strike action).

Indeed, various Strathclyde local routes plus Southern metro and Gatwick Express have long-standing services for 26 December,

Yes, the Strathclyde area Boxing Day service has operated for around the last 30 years.

...and nothing on New Year's Day to make up for it.

True, and on moving from England to Scotland that surprised me, because down South New Years Day could be as busy as any other Bank Holiday; However, New Years Day in Scotland is very different and as quiet as Christmas Day.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, the Strathclyde area Boxing Day service has operated for around the last 30 years.

True, and on moving from England to Scotland that surprised me, because down South New Years Day could be as busy as any other Bank Holiday; However, New Years Day in Scotland is very different and as quiet as Christmas Day.

One can quip about Scotland's relationship with alcohol and needing it to recover from their hangover from NYE, but in practice it's just because the 2nd is a holiday as well so nobody really needs to travel on 1st.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

However, New Years Day in Scotland is very different and as quiet as Christmas Day.

IIRC, the only train services in Scotland on New Year's Day in recent years have often been the cross border long distance trains from Glasgow Central or Edinburgh Waverley to/from England, and they will often skip-stop (closed) intermediate stations such as Haymarket.

 

[Falcon1200]

I should perhaps clarify that it is just Scotrail who do not operate on New Years Day, the Anglo-Scottish TOCs run trains, although on a limited basis.

(Posted at the same time as @Mcr Warrior's above!)