Overcrowding during Easter

[yorksrob]

However, we have never found a way to make that stock suitable as crowd busters for the intercity routes.

We have and it's called main line electrification. Shorter distance units could technically be used to crowd bust on the WCML and Great Western have been experimenting with this on the main line to South Wales.

 

[Krokodil]

There's probably a reason why this can't happen, but has it ever been floated that a TOC could commission a "Mark 1 mark 2" of sorts? A cheap, basic carriage that fulfils the minimum accessibility requirements, designed to be able to sit in a siding for a month and not get worse, that could be coupled behind a unit to make it longer at short notice.

Royal carriages excepted, virtually no railway company in the history of time has ever ordered brand new carriages with the expectation that they will be sat around for extended periods of time. Designated crowdbuster stock has always been formed of fully depreciated vehicles.

The answer is that new build stock needs to be standardised. An intercity unit should be an intercity unit, GWR should be able to hire an 80x from LNER, TPE, EMR or Avanti (obviously once they've been built) and it should be operationally indistinguishable as far as guards and drivers are concerned from their own units. Ideally they should also be able to work in multiple without pettifogging issues like minor differences in software.

 

[43066]

The answer is that new build stock needs to be standardised. An intercity unit should be an intercity unit, GWR should be able to hire an 80x from LNER, TPE, EMR or Avanti (obviously once they've been built) and it should be operationally indistinguishable as far as guards and drivers are concerned from their own units. Ideally they should also be able to work in multiple without pettifogging issues like minor differences in software.

Unfortunately a substantial proportion of the national rolling stock fleet has recently been renewed, with little or no standardisation.

Oh well. Only another forty years and we can try again!

 

[dk1]

Ah yes - in the days before Chiltern served Oxford.

Good luck with finding paths up the Chiltern line to do that now though, unless you're going to kill a number of the Chiltern services and basically tell the passengers at those stations they're going to be on a bus because you don't want to disrupt some Manchester travellers - and a few rivet counters who want the novelty of Voyagers running off route.

We’ll never see the likes of that again. Not that I’m too bothered as did it for the, as you say, novelty & over it now.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And in Avanti's case also buses from Rugby to Kettering to connect with EMR.

LNW also had buses going from Milton Keynes all stops to Watford and onto Potters Bar as well. And before anyone say's "Why didn't they send them to Stanmore?" - Jubilee and part of Met were also closed for engineering.

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Ah yes - in the days before Chiltern served Oxford.

Good luck with finding paths up the Chiltern line to do that now though, unless you're going to kill a number of the Chiltern services and basically tell the passengers at those stations they're going to be on a bus because you don't want to disrupt some Manchester travellers - and a few rivet counters who want the novelty of Voyagers running off route.

You'd path them on Sundays, it was only one path per hour and Chiltern's Sunday service is quite thin.

Isn't the issue though that the line required to reach Euston has been closed and dug up for HS2?

 

[Taunton]

So who is going to pay for these extra units that might be needed 2 or 3 times a year? Do you think that is a good use of resources?

It really doesn't help, with this hyperbole of "only used 2 or 3 times a year". If stock is used not every day, what is to be paid for? Any proper understanding of running costs shows that there is a (small) amount that is time-related, and a (much larger) amount that is mileage-related. Of course, accountants will add all together and reduce this to a simplistic (for them) cost per month, or whatever.

An intelligent rolling stock manager (bit of a short supply nowadays it seems) would have a complete understanding of seasonal requirements. They would think it was madness to scrap perfectly serviceable stock on the basis of some theoretical accounting calculation. They would also understand that passengers do not present themselves in even numbers each day for the convenience of the railway, but that they are in a service industry where meeting paying customers' needs comes high up the priority list.

The (old) GWR, no slouches when it came to financial understanding, built "Excursion Stock" from new, finding it worthwhile to do so. There's a very nice, now 90-year old such vehicle at Didcot museum. It was by no means only used for "excursions", but regularly was turned out for race specials, the Ideal Home exhibition in London, main line reliefs at Christmas ... and at Easter.

 

[JonathanH]

The (old) GWR, no slouches when it came to financial understanding, built "Excursion Stock" from new, finding it worthwhile to do so. There's a very nice, now 90-year old such vehicle at Didcot museum. It was by no means only used for "excursions", but regularly was turned out for race specials, the Ideal Home exhibition in London, main line reliefs at Christmas ... and at Easter.

These days GWR use their 'excursion stock' to run half hourly off peak services to Cardiff which are expendable when something more important is on like Cheltenham Festival or Glastonbury.

Equally, other routes yield stock when there is a Rugby match at Cardiff.

 

[The Planner]

You'd path them on Sundays, it was only one path per hour and Chiltern's Sunday service is quite thin.

Isn't the issue though that the line required to reach Euston has been closed and dug up for HS2?

HS2 only need the high side platforms, Watford North and other track renewal is driving the all lines elements.

 

[Falcon1200]

I don't want to work on those days either as things stand, we tend to do family stuff. But there are enough people who will, particularly if the price is right.

And there are railway staff who have no choice about working on Xmas Day, Boxing Day, etc, because their role requires 24/7/365 coverage, the situation which applied to me for the last few years of my railway career. But I knew that when I took the job!

Sadly, for some, the concept of units hanging around in the sidings, to only be used during traditional commuter peaks or seasonal weekends, seems to be deeply troubling, even though it's what BR and the early privatised railway did as a matter of course.

It isn't what BR and the early privatised railway did as a matter of course though, at least not after the late 1980s.

Indeed not; When Corkerhill Depot received their allocation of Class 156 sets, around 1986 IIRC, if they were on top of maintenance they often had a spare set, which Control declared on the daily availability report. We were then told in no uncertain terms never to show sets spare, because a set would be reallocated away from us! That was BR in the 80s, well before privatisation, dealing in penny numbers of units.

 

[Starmill]

You'd path them on Sundays, it was only one path per hour and Chiltern's Sunday service is quite thin.

Isn't the issue though that the line required to reach Euston has been closed and dug up for HS2?

Chiltern's weekday service is being thinned out anyway. There were previously more services between Banbury or Aylesbury and London via High Wycombe. Some still exist as truncated services but some have been combined. Monday - Saturday only 4tph through Princes Risborough most hours.

 

[Bald Rick]

I just can’t imagine the CEO of Ryanair: Michael O’Leary ever telling passengers not to travel on Ryanair.

Funnily enough that’s exactly what he did do to me (or more precisely one of his minions).

Booked flights for the whole family, then a few days later got a message saying ’oh, sorry, those flights aren’t running any more‘. They were the only flights on that route that day. Our choice was to transfer to flights the next day, which not surprisingly were much more expensive, or get a refund. I chose the latter. It arrived only a few weeks later.

 

[BoroAndy]

As engineering tends to be booked many months in advance, you would think with the overall railways knowledge and experience they would know where extra demand will be, and get extra services or where possible, longer trains sorted long in advance, even if it means some big ecs movements around the country. Memo to all companies, bank holidays are always busy!!!

 

[Bald Rick]

Out of interest, what is your personal take on why the same activities take longer now?

* Increased levels of risk aversion in terms of overruns.
* Higher level of engineering standards, often with more complex kit needing higher standards of installation tolerance / set up
* More stringent safety rules across the board (and not just about what can be done under traffic or not)
* in some cases, engineering perfection trumping ease of installation during the specification stages
* the slow unlearning of how things can be done

Personal views, I’m sure there’s more, and I’m very conscious there’s elements of grumpy old man wearing rose tinted glasses for 20:20 hindsight vision.

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Memo to all companies, bank holidays are always busy!!!

Except they are not always busy. Some of the business is weather dependent, and if you can predict that in line with railway engineering planning timescales you’ll be up for a Nobel award.

 

[Failed Unit]

There is a lot of talk about coaches sat aside for crowd busting. We already have this to a degree with the charter stock. Which I assume isn‘t cost effective as they would have either done it. (Like the Manchester - London service which was put on when Avanti were at there worse). But would I be correct in saying that if a charter operator decided to set up a Kings Cross - Liverpool service they could bid got a path and if they can find one sell seats (or would that fall foul of competition rules)

 

[zwk500]

There is a lot of talk about coaches sat aside for crowd busting. We already have this to a degree with the charter stock. Which I assume isn‘t cost effective as they would have either done it. (Like the Manchester - London service which was put on when Avanti were at there worse). But would I be correct in saying that if a charter operator decided to set up a Kings Cross - Liverpool service they could bid got a path and if they can find one sell seats (or would that fall foul of competition rules)

They'd be well within their rights to bid for the path and sell their own tickets on it - they might even throw in a bacon roll! - but they can't carry passengers on normal tickets. When they have run reliefs for normal passengers it's been under contract to NR or a TOC and therefore revenue has largely been told that there's a really interesting squirrel on the other side of the platform.
Charter TOCs have occasionally carried passengers on normal tickets if they have spare space and the timetables out of the window, but this is very much when something's happened while the tour's out and there are no trains to take normal punters home (the A1 trust made headlines doing this in Kent one winter, when iced third rail meant they were the only thing running - the Trust very kindly offered to advise SE on 'modernising' their fleet).

 

[JonathanH]

But would I be correct in saying that if a charter operator decided to set up a Kings Cross - Liverpool service they could bid got a path and if they can find one sell seats (or would that fall foul of competition rules)

They could bid a path, just as there was a chartered Finsbury Park to Barnetby train on Saturday morning, and another from Norwich to Worcester, but the reality is that it would be very difficult to make money from it, because of the difficulty of advertising the train, the lack of access to revenue from interavailable fares, and absence from journey planners.

No one turning up at St Pancras on Saturday morning will have expected there not to be capacity for them.

Therefore, who would be thinking that they had to book for, and travel on a special train to get from Kings Cross to Liverpool. As we have seen with the recent NR charters, news gets to enthusiasts that these are running, but not to those who could use them as part of a point to point journey.

 

[43066]

They'd be well within their rights to bid for the path and sell their own tickets on it - they might even throw in a bacon roll! - but they can't carry passengers on normal tickets. When they have run reliefs for normal passengers it's been under contract to NR or a TOC and therefore revenue has largely been told that there's a really interesting squirrel on the other side of the platform.
Charter TOCs have occasionally carried passengers on normal tickets if they have spare space and the timetables out of the window, but this is very much when something's happened while the tour's out and there are no trains to take normal punters home (the A1 trust made headlines doing this in Kent one winter, when iced third rail meant they were the only thing running - the Trust very kindly offered to advise SE on 'modernising' their fleet).

I’m by no means an expert on the financial side of how these things work, but intuitively I can’t imagine a charter TOC being paid to lay on scheduled relief services for a few days over a bank holiday weekend is ever going to be commercially viable, either for the operator itself or for the railway? It would involve massive complexity in terms of planning, pathing, getting the rolling stock into the right places etc. only to run a handful of services carrying a few thousand people.

It will always be far cheaper/less complex to simply lay on buses.

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* Increased levels of risk aversion in terms of overruns.
* Higher level of engineering standards, often with more complex kit needing higher standards of installation tolerance / set up
* More stringent safety rules across the board (and not just about what can be done under traffic or not)
* in some cases, engineering perfection trumping ease of installation during the specification stages
* the slow unlearning of how things can be done

Personal views, I’m sure there’s more, and I’m very conscious there’s elements of grumpy old man wearing rose tinted glasses for 20:20 hindsight vision.

Thanks!

 

[zwk500]

I’m by no means an expert on the financial side of how these things work, but intuitively I can’t imagine a charter TOC being paid to lay on scheduled relief services for a few days over a bank holiday weekend is ever going to be commercially viable, either for the operator itself or for the railway? It would involve massive complexity in terms of planning, pathing, getting the rolling stock into the right places etc. only to run a handful of services carrying a few thousand people.

It will always be far cheaper/less complex to simply lay on buses.

I'm aware of it happening for Leeds-Sheffield (I think) when there was an XC strike on a summer bank holiday, as well as Peterborough-Liverpool Street this year for an ECML blockade. I don't know if the charters run for the Queen's lying-in-state were contracted reliefs or just a commercial opportunity.

AIUI the justification for the Leeds-Sheffield case was that NR were responsible for crowd management at Leeds station and buses alone weren't expected to cope, so they contracted a train to provide the necessary capacity.

 

[A0]

You'd path them on Sundays, it was only one path per hour and Chiltern's Sunday service is quite thin.

Isn't the issue though that the line required to reach Euston has been closed and dug up for HS2?

HS2 only need the high side platforms, Watford North and other track renewal is driving the all lines elements.

I read Bletchleyite's comment as being about the New North Mainline being truncated due to HS2 works.

Though - subject to paths - it would be possible to run Greenford - Ealing and then pick up the route to the WCML from the GWML at Old Oak Common to Willesden, which I presume is what was used with those crowdbusters.

 

[Bletchleyite]

HS2 only need the high side platforms, Watford North and other track renewal is driving the all lines elements.

I'm talking about the line connecting the Chiltern line to Euston, not this weekend's works...

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I read Bletchleyite's comment as being about the New North Mainline being truncated due to HS2 works.

Though - subject to paths - it would be possible to run Greenford - Ealing and then pick up the route to the WCML from the GWML at Old Oak Common to Willesden, which I presume is what was used with those crowdbusters.

It was and I thought they did go via the NNML.

 

[bramling]

I've driven trains on Boxing day several times, the reward was 30 hours' pay for a maximum ten-hour shift, allocated on the basis of names drawn out of a hat from a list of volunteers. I can assure you there were no shortage of willing volunteers and Boxing Day was always over-subscribed so that if someone dropped out, the next volunteer on the list got given the job.

Which then brings us to the next problem. Instead of "it's unacceptable there are no trains on Boxing Day" type threads, instead we'd be getting "it's unacceptable fares are so high on Boxing Day".

I don't see why other farepayers, nor taxpayers for that matter, should be subsidising such inflated costs to move a (comparatively) small number of people.

 

[A0]

It was and I thought they did go via the NNML.

It was for those, as I posted, it could be done (subject to paths) via Greenford and Ealing - but I suspect with Crossrail now live, such paths don't exist.

The fact the whole of Euston is closed as explained by The Planner is another reason why such a service wasn't an option on this occasion.

 

[The Planner]

I'm talking about the line connecting the Chiltern line to Euston, not this weekend's works...

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It was and I thought they did go via the NNML.

No, they went via Acton and up the bank via South West Sidings.

 

[geoffk]

At least the railways don't run a Sunday service on Bank Holidays as the buses do (and we've discussed the reasons elsewhere on this Forum, one of which was ensuring stock is in the right place for the start of the next working day).

 

[miklcct]

At least the railways don't run a Sunday service on Bank Holidays as the buses so (and we've discussed the reasons elsewhere on this Forum, one of which was ensuring stock is in the right place for the start of the next working day).

Do railways in other countries generally run a Sunday service on bank holidays? In Hong Kong it's true.

Bank holidays are the same as Sundays in term of commercial activities in the society so I don't see any reason why a Sunday service isn't appropriate.

 

[dk1]

At least the railways don't run a Sunday service on Bank Holidays as the buses so (and we've discussed the reasons elsewhere on this Forum, one of which was ensuring stock is in the right place for the start of the next working day).

My village has a half-hourly bus service weekday daytimes. Good Friday & today it has just 2 all day. Meanwhile the train service is excellent offering a full normal service from 5am until shortly after midnight.

 

[hkstudent]

Which then brings us to the next problem. Instead of "it's unacceptable there are no trains on Boxing Day" type threads, instead we'd be getting "it's unacceptable fares are so high on Boxing Day".

I don't see why other farepayers, nor taxpayers for that matter, should be subsidising such inflated costs to move a (comparatively) small number of people.

To be fair, the UK is the only country not running any railway services on Boxing and most European countries even run Christmas Day service.

There would be no excuses for the UK, as one of the strongest countries in Europe, to not run any, unless we think public transport is not a essential service on every day.

 

[bob007]

IMO our railway is run for 1) business travel, 2) commuters. That you can visit your family at the weekend or go shopping on the 28th Dec is almost a side-effect. The government and previous governments have made it quite clear that universal public transport for all, for a greater good, is not something they believe in. To them, it is just to get people to work. If people are off work, they are free to run 0 services for all they care.

Things may only change when a party who believes in public transport as a greater good is in power. Until then, in proper British fashion, we will just shut up and take what we're given

 

[Mcr Warrior]

To be fair, the UK is the only country not running any railway services on Boxing and most European countries even run Christmas Day service.

Really? Thought that there's normally been a fair service up in Central Scotland on Boxing Day (albeit nothing in 2022, due to strike action).

 

[Starmill]

Do railways in other countries generally run a Sunday service on bank holidays? In Hong Kong it's true.

Bank holidays are the same as Sundays in term of commercial activities in the society so I don't see any reason why a Sunday service isn't appropriate.

It's clearly not appropriate where the Sunday service is no service whatsoever, as it is for stations and bus routes in lots of different places all across England. For example, Castle Bar Park isn't served on Sundays, but it is served today.

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Really? Thought that there's normally been a fair service up in Central Scotland on Boxing Day (albeit nothing in 2022, due to strike action).

Indeed, various Strathclyde local routes plus Southern metro and Gatwick Express have long-standing services for 26 December, as do nowadays Heathrow Express, Merseyrail, Southeastern Highspeed and a few others. It has been tried on Northern and Chiltern Railways but who knows if those will return. Most non-interoperable Metros or tramways run on 26 December too.