Overcrowding during Easter

[Haywain]

the point I'm trying to make is that there are historical examples of multiple units only being used at peak times,

But that was peak times of the day, rather than peak times of the year which is rather different.

As for not wishing MUs to sit around idle for months, presumably the whole fleet can be cycled so that each unit is in traffic every week.

So who is going to pay for these extra units that might be needed 2 or 3 times a year? Do you think that is a good use of resources?

 

[12LDA28C]

Personally, I think what needs to happen is a ‘drains up’ review of why some activities seem to take longer now, and need more disruptive access, than they did 20 years ago.

Such as NR banning all work protected by lookout, meaning a full block is now required, for example? Madness.

 

[Bald Rick]

Such as NR banning all work protected by lookout, meaning a full block is now required, for example? Madness.

That’s not what I meant.

 

[Llanigraham]

Such as NR banning all work protected by lookout, meaning a full block is now required, for example? Madness.

I suspect the RAIB and the ORR might have a different opinion.

 

[12LDA28C]

This is the problem, this notion that there are countless people queuing up to work the likes of Christmas is a bit of a misnomer.

You’re right that you will get people if the price is right, however for many people that price is going to be *extremely* high, especially in industries where people are otherwise well paid - such as the railway.

I've driven trains on Boxing day several times, the reward was 30 hours' pay for a maximum ten-hour shift, allocated on the basis of names drawn out of a hat from a list of volunteers. I can assure you there were no shortage of willing volunteers and Boxing Day was always over-subscribed so that if someone dropped out, the next volunteer on the list got given the job.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Apr 2023 ==

That’s not what I meant.

I know, but it's a case in point.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Apr 2023 ==

I suspect the RAIB and the ORR might have a different opinion.

Maybe the RAIB and ORR should insist that the correct procedures are followed rather than banning a method of work that has been deemed safe and acceptable for decades.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Due to power supply capacity, one couldn't run 10-car 442s down to Weymouth. They were only ever 5-car sets, though 10-cars could (and were booked) to run to Poole on some services.

I seem to recall there was a proposal (maybe not implemented) to run a few 10-car specials to Weymouth for the Olympics. Careful timetabling (i.e cancelling trains running the other way or replacing them with diesels) to avoid overloading the electrical system.

 

[43066]

Personally, I think what needs to happen is a ‘drains up’ review of why some activities seem to take longer now, and need more disruptive access, than they did 20 years ago.

Out of interest, what is your personal take on why the same activities take longer now?

 

[Hadders]

12 coach train with room to spare, while elsewhere 2 coach trains were rammed. See what I said earlier about fleet capacity being in all of the wrong places.

Don’t fall into the trap of thinking that trains in the south east cart fresh air around all day on bank holidays.

I travelled on a 12-car 700 on Good Friday morning from Stevenage to East Croydon that was ultimately heading to Brighton. Full and standing south of Blackfriars, even in declassified 1st class.

On my return journey I was careful to make sure I took a train that had started at Horsham rather than Brighton

 

[Master29]

Is this definitely correct? OK it's of little use on some of the IC lines under discussion here, but the ex-Southern Region lines definitely seemed to only press units into service during the peaks. Many off-peak services well into privatisation (I'd give the 1997/98 timetable on SWT as an example) were only 4-car off peak, when they were often 12 during the peak. Or, the 442 services to Weymouth were frequently 5-car off-peak, but would be 10-car during Summer Saturdays. The extra stock was sometimes employed on "seaside specials" from the London area during the summer season, particularly Summer Saturdays.

Even though a "Southern" EMU would be little use on the MML or WCML (!), the point I'm trying to make is that there are historical examples of multiple units only being used at peak times, not just loco-hauled MkI stock, so there seems to me to no reason why you can't have MUs being pressed into service at peak times just because they are MUs and not hauled stock.

As for not wishing MUs to sit around idle for months, this would not happen as the peak-only units would be needed for the Mon-Fri commuter peak, and then could be re-used for weekend peak periods.

I will agree that the fragmented railway has made such things more difficult. Re-unifying the railway in some shape or form, whether it be private or public, and simplifying the structure (goodbye ROSCOs, for one) would help, I feel.

Indeed. I remember it was similar with the eastern suburban routes from Liverpool Street and Fenchurch St. I regularly remember Chingford being used for precisely that purpose.

 

[43066]

Don’t fall into the trap of thinking that trains in the south east cart fresh air around all day on bank holidays.

I travelled on a 12-car 700 on Good Friday morning from Stevenage to East Croydon that was ultimately heading to Brighton. Full and standing south of Blackfriars, even in declassified 1st class.

On my return journey I was careful to make sure I took a train that had started at Horsham rather than Brighton

The BML was rammed last night. I was on an early evening Eastbourne - LBG service which was like a pre Covid rush hour tube train…

 

[3RDGEN]

West Coast Mk3s (complete with DVT) used to be seen heading through Bristol on Saturdays.

A spare West Coast MK3 set was used on summer Saturdays out and back from Manchester to Paignton or similar destination. There was far more flexibility back then which isn't the case now, can't see the South West guards been trained/signed off on DVT's for example back then.

Equivalent today would be using a pair of West Coast 221's from Manchester / Birmingham to release a Cross Country 22x to strengthen a further diagram. However the West Coast 221's are different to XC ones so would require some conversion course which isn't worth while for a few Saturdays each year.

 

[Starmill]

It can't really change, because if I've bought a ticket I have a contract for certain validity and the railway can't change that just because it feels like. The only way to really fix it is to stop cutting staff route knowledge etc so diversions can be used rather than buses, so the alternatives aren't quicker and more desirable.

You couldn't even fix it by restricting validities, as if I want to go to Manchester via Sheffield if that wasn't valid I could just split.

Basically, the cause is typical corporate/Government bad customer service.

It works fine for some diversions though. Milton Keynes Central <> Bedford by bus is absolutely not a problem because it's not very far and the roads are free-flowing. Bedford <> London by EMR is now fast and eight car and has frequent Thameslink services as a back-up. The buses have been running either every ten minutes or every five minutes this Easter. It's really not a problem.

Obviously the situation with EMR Intercity is quite different.

Indeed one could say as a permanent solution, that rail tickets should be accepted on Stagecoach X5 and the stops amended slightly, with Stagecoach bunged some of the cash through WMT which is currently being wasted on barely used (and barely paid for by those who are using them) "fast" replacement coaches to Bletchley. That's probably one for another thread however.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Apr 2023 ==

A spare West Coast MK3 set was used on summer Saturdays out and back from Manchester to Paignton or similar destination. There was far more flexibility back then which isn't the case now, can't see the South West guards been trained/signed off on DVT's for example back then.

Equivalent today would be using a pair of West Coast 221's from Manchester / Birmingham to release a Cross Country 22x to strengthen a further diagram. However the West Coast 221's are different to XC ones so would require some conversion course which isn't worth while for a few Saturdays each year.

CrossCountry hired Virgin Trains voyagers during a closure of London Euston about five years ago to work ten cars between Manchester Piccadilly and Reading. No reason it couldn't have happen now beyond the obvious, some of the Voyagers are off lease and it requires double the crew.

 

[87015]

It works fine for some diversions though. Milton Keynes Central <> Bedford by bus is absolutely not a problem because it's not very far and the roads are free-flowing. Bedford <> London by EMR is now fast and eight car and has frequent Thameslink services as a back-up. The buses have been running either every ten minutes or every five minutes this Easter. It's really not a problem.

Obviously the situation with EMR Intercity is quite different.

Fine for MK. Apart from when people have been left behind throughout with BTP attendance on a regular basis through the weekend required. Local traffic south of MK has effectivly been told to go swivel with just an all stations bus taking a mere 2hr20 to Watford, so 3hrs+ for Bletchley-London

 

[The Planner]

Out of interest, what is your personal take on why the same activities take longer now?

Float added for DWWP (delivering work within possessions) doesn't help.

 

[Starmill]

Local traffic south of MK has effectivly been told to go swivel with just an all stations bus taking a mere 2hr20 to Watford, so 3hrs+ for Bletchley-London

It's permitted to go Bletchley - Milton Keynes Central - Bedford and then by train to London St Pancras though. Nothing like three hours. Please don't just make stuff up?

 

[87015]

It's permitted to go Bletchley - Milton Keynes Central - Bedford and then by train to London St Pancras though. Nothing like three hours. Please don't just make stuff up?

Leighton, Berko?

 

[Starmill]

Leighton, Berko?

So you accept you just made that up then or you don't?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Apr 2023 ==

Leighton, Berko?

If you had said that Leighton Buzzard, Berkhamsted and Hemel Hempstead should have had a replacement service that goes directly to Potters Bar via the M25 and not into Watford Junction and back out again first, I would have agreed with you.

 

[87015]

So you accept you just made that up then or you don't?

I can see it showing Potters Bar change as an option from Bletchley, but admittedly hadnt seen MK validity

 

[43074]

I'm really surprised how willing the usual suspects are to defend the industry when the last week has been a shambles and not shone the industry up in a good light at all.

Also lots of comments going to great lengths to explain why things can't be done differently, most service industries would attempt to go to any reasonable lengths to provide a decent service for passengers, but nowadays the prevailing attitude seems to be it's too much faff for us, go swivel, 'do not travel' etc.

 

[12LDA28C]

but nowadays the prevailing attitude seems to be it's too much faff for us, go swivel, 'do not travel' etc.

And who, in your opinion is to blame for this attitude?

 

[Starmill]

I'm really surprised how willing the usual suspects are to defend the industry when the last week has been a shambles and not shone the industry up in a good light at all.

Also lots of comments going to great lengths to explain why things can't be done differently, most service industries would attempt to go to any reasonable lengths to provide a decent service for passengers, but nowadays the prevailing attitude seems to be it's too much faff for us, go swivel, 'do not travel' etc.

There are a small number of things that would have made a big difference and could have been done with just a little bit more money. A good example being the above mention of provision of fast replacement buses from Leighton Buzzard, Berkhamsted and Hemel Hempstead. Of course this is money the industry is being deprived of in the government's new regime.

 

[philosopher]

I'm really surprised how willing the usual suspects are to defend the industry when the last week has been a shambles and not shone the industry up in a good light at all.

Also lots of comments going to great lengths to explain why things can't be done differently, most service industries would attempt to go to any reasonable lengths to provide a decent service for passengers

I am sure the railway industry can do things in better way to reduce overcrowding and inconvenience to passengers as evident by Project Rio a couple of decades ago. However I suspect this would require the railway industry to have additional funding and other resources.

but nowadays the prevailing attitude seems to be it's too much faff for us, go swivel, 'do not travel' etc.

I just can’t imagine the CEO of Ryanair: Michael O’Leary ever telling passengers not to travel on Ryanair. I suppose this reflects the fact that railway companies profits are less tied to passenger numbers now.

 

[Starmill]

I just can’t imagine the CEO of Ryanair: Michael O’Leary ever telling passengers not to travel on Ryanair. I suppose this reflects the fact that railway companies profits are less tied to passenger numbers now.

Ryanair are however completely at liberty to just tell people their flights are all full and that the customer hasn't booked in time, so they've missed their chance to travel that day / week.

Train operators shouldn't be doing that unless it's impossible for people to be transported safety, such as during very severe storms when roads and motorways are closed.

 

[Krokodil]

But there are enough people who will, particularly if the price is right.

Of course there are. But how much is the Treasury prepared to offer as an incentive to carry around the tiny number of passengers who actually want to travel on Christmas Day, or the football fans/shoppers who want to travel on Boxing Day? It's not cost-effective in most areas so you'd never get the funding.

There are still some commuter railways in the South East that have perhaps a third of the fleet parked up at the weekend, but that stock is of very little use elsewhere.

This wouldn't be the case in a properly-run railway though. 450s, 377s and 331s do pretty much the same jobs (let's ignore that they're from different generations for this exercise), they're outer suburban units. An integrated railway might have ordered one class of dual-voltage EMU which would make short-term hires between regions perfectly straightforward.

However, we have never found a way to make that stock suitable as crowd busters for the intercity routes.

I wouldn't quite go as far as "never". GWR have the ability to use 387s as crowd busters on rugby internationals out of Cardiff, even though these units were intended for outer suburban work. Why can they do it? 1. because the route has been electrified 2. because they are all one TOC so the drivers already signed both route and traction. Electrify the network and integrate operations and you now have flexibility.

We won't go into the absurd situation where these outer suburban units are now regularly working intercity services in order to free up intercity units to work regional services. What a topsy-turvy world.

So who is going to pay for these extra units that might be needed 2 or 3 times a year? Do you think that is a good use of resources?

We don't need extra units per se, we need the flexibility to send (for example) the stock surplus from truncated Euston services into St Pancras. In HST days that was easy because you had a standard intercity DEMU that all intercity operators signed.

I'm really surprised how willing the usual suspects are to defend the industry when the last week has been a shambles and not shone the industry up in a good light at all.

Also lots of comments going to great lengths to explain why things can't be done differently, most service industries would attempt to go to any reasonable lengths to provide a decent service for passengers, but nowadays the prevailing attitude seems to be it's too much faff for us, go swivel, 'do not travel' etc.

It could be done differently, but not under this fragmented railway. Most service industries don't have the dead hand of the Treasury pulling the strings (strings that are more akin to nooses).

 

[fwsmVor]

There's probably a reason why this can't happen, but has it ever been floated that a TOC could commission a "Mark 1 mark 2" of sorts? A cheap, basic carriage that fulfils the minimum accessibility requirements, designed to be able to sit in a siding for a month and not get worse, that could be coupled behind a unit to make it longer at short notice.

 

[class 9]

I'm really surprised how willing the usual suspects are to defend the industry when the last week has been a shambles and not shone the industry up in a good light at all.

Also lots of comments going to great lengths to explain why things can't be done differently, most service industries would attempt to go to any reasonable lengths to provide a decent service for passengers, but nowadays the prevailing attitude seems to be it's too much faff for us, go swivel, 'do not travel' etc.

The whole industry is a shambles & not just last week, anything that could be done differently( that potentially could benefit passengers)that costs more is point blank refused.
The TOCs may want to do things differently, but they don't control the purse strings, directors have to get authorisation from the dft.

 

[nw1]

Due to power supply capacity, one couldn't run 10-car 442s down to Weymouth. They were only ever 5-car sets, though 10-cars could (and were booked) to run to Poole on some services.

Sorry, I was referring to services being 10-car as far as Bournemouth.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Sorry, I was referring to services being 10-car as far as Bournemouth.

This is mostly still the case.

 

[nw1]

But that was peak times of the day, rather than peak times of the year which is rather different.

So who is going to pay for these extra units that might be needed 2 or 3 times a year? Do you think that is a good use of resources?

As I said these units could possibly be used during Mon-Fri business peaks, and then re-used at the weekend.

And even if they can't for whatever reason, I would argue that even if the units are needed during peak weekends only, they should, really, be provided. One needn't buy new units, though. Older units might be perfect for this purpose, rather than prematurely withdrawing them. Is it right that the 365s were withdrawn at little more than 20 years old due to the ridiculous bureaucracy-laden system produced by privatisation? ROSCOs, in particular, seem to do nothing more than suck money out of the system. Is it right that the 379s are standing idle, for similar reasons? Is it right, given that these units do, or did, physically exist, that someone pays for an £100 ticket and has to stand for the privilege, because the railway cannot cope with peaks in demand and because the byzantine bureaucratic system cannot get the 379s, for example, out of the sidings doing useful work?

Maybe nothing can be done right now - but these sorts of issues need to be tackled in the coming years. A unified, simple, de-bureaucratised railway is needed.

 

[43066]

I'm really surprised how willing the usual suspects are to defend the industry when the last week has been a shambles and not shone the industry up in a good light at all.

Also lots of comments going to great lengths to explain why things can't be done differently, most service industries would attempt to go to any reasonable lengths to provide a decent service for passengers, but nowadays the prevailing attitude seems to be it's too much faff for us, go swivel, 'do not travel' etc.

Not sure I’ve seen anyone “defending” the industry, I’ve seen people attempting to explain why things can’t be done differently in accordance with some rather bonkers suggestions. As ever, some seem more interested in complaining about awful how everything is than they do in learning or understanding why things are the way they are.

If you really want someone to blame you could start with the DfT/treasury, who are starving the industry of money for political reasons.