Overcrowding during Easter

[Master29]

With GWR having issues as well with a signalling fault at St Budeaux last night it seems 1H84 went to Penzance as a 15 car train. Did this actually happen or was it just a Realtime Trains anomaly?

 

[SynthD]

Who thought separating infrastructure from service providers was a good idea?

People who know about the other ways of doing it.

I'd be interested to see stats to see if the incidence of engineering work on busy weekends (i.e. bank holiday weekends and all weekends June-Aug) has increased since the 90s.

Railtrack didn’t do enough maintenance and were replaced because of that. We can be sure that there is more work going on, with some of it fitting less conveniently into the public’s schedules.

 

[dk1]

Could unit maintenance be replanned such that routine maintenance is avoided on peak days (start of holiday, end of holiday etc) so more units are available?

That has always been the case when possible. Train planning/fleet cooperate whenever possible.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Apr 2023 ==

First weekend in a long time mostly undisrupted by engineering though. Still loadings are solid today.

At least the Ely-Cambridge block & the GEML being open today at least has taken the pressure off the Norwich-Stansted & EMR services. They’ve been horrendous for the last few months.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Apr 2023 ==

With GWR having issues as well with a signalling fault at St Budeaux last night it seems 1H84 went to Penzance as a 15 car train. Did this actually happen or was it just a Realtime Trains anomaly?

Just an anomaly. Unit control obviously didn’t update the system.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Apr 2023 ==

Look carefully at when people actually travel. One gets the feeling the railway is sitting waiting for the old demand patterns to re-emerge

From what I see on my patch that pattern is re-emerging. It’s very evident how busy commuter services have got again now on Mondays as well as Tuesday-Thursday which had already seen strong growth.

 

[philosopher]

It may also be relevant that we have Ramadan, Passover and Easter all coinciding this year.

Which of course would mean this Easter weekend would have higher demand than most other Easters which makes closing a major London terminal even more questionable!

 

[jhy44]

With the WCML shut I decided to book today’s London - Bromsgrove travel via Paddington and Worcester Foregate… the Didcot-Oxford closure occurring at the same time as a WCML closure and Chiltern advising against all travel has thrown travel to my part of the world somewhat into disarray.

I was expecting the Paddington - Cheltenham train to be standing room only seeing as it’s only 5 coaches and has most Worcestershire bound passengers on too by the sounds of conversations, but it’s not actually too bad. Very glad I opted for this route instead of the Didcot-Oxford bus based on the photos of the crowds queueing for it

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Apr 2023 ==

With a railway more dependant on leisure i think a new approach is needed.

Very much agree with this. Whilst commuter traffic is now picking up, in the post-Covid world it’s far easier for most people who are commuting to switch to work from home on railway closure days, as we’ve seen during the strikes.

Those people who are unable to switch to work from home due to the frontline or manual nature of their jobs are also the ones most likely to have to work on bank holiday weekends anyway.

Those people who can work from home are unlikely to be willing to dial into weddings / holidays / Easter meals on zoom.

Thus, post-Covid, I’d argue that scheduling engineering works for bank holiday weekends is in fact more disruptive to plans than doing so on another 3-4 day period on a regular weekend which includes 1-2 preceding or following working days.

 

[Falcon1200]

Its only being going on since the invention of the railways by now you'd think it would have worked it out

If it was that simple it would have been worked out by now, no? But of course it is not that simple, maintenance, renewal and new construction have to be done sometime, and if cannot be done during no traffic periods, the railway will have to be shut.

BR used to. They didnt scrap everything once it ended front line service

In the old days, railways used to keep spare stock precisely to handle peak demand.

Because in those days you could get away with keeping some ratty old coaches around the back of a depot at very little apparent cost and hooking them on to trains when you needed extra capacity.

'keeping ratty old coaches etc' was something Dr Beeching targeted years ago! The railway does keep stock for peak demand, witness for example the EMUs stabled at various points around London between the morning and evening peaks; Keeping stock for exceptional demand is another thing.

 

[Merle Haggard]

On the East Midlands route, they brought in 360s, which transferred Wellingborough passengers and added more capacity at Bedford and Luton, which allowed the HSTs to be withdrawn.

For Wellingborough passengers travelling Northwards it indeed transferred them - to Kettering.
360 introduction did not reduce the demand North of Kettering.
Same applies to Bedford and Luton, which also had through services beyond Kettering.

 

[dk1]

'keeping ratty old coaches etc' was something Dr Beeching targeted years ago! The railway does keep stock for peak demand, witness for example the EMUs stabled at various points around London between the morning and evening peaks; Keeping stock for exceptional demand is another thing.

A large proportion of those mk1s used for footex services off season & in Summer for extras to the likes of Blackpool, Paignton, Skegness & Yarmouth were in a terrible state. Many using them in the 70s chose not to repeat experience.

 

[Merle Haggard]

A large proportion of those mk1s used for footex services off season & in Summer for extras to the likes of Blackpool, Paignton, Skegness & Yarmouth were in a terrible state. Many using them in the 70s chose not to repeat experience.

The four loco-hauled 'Cobbler' commuter sets were only used on that service M-F for obvious reasons. Use on that sort of trains at weekends was at marginal (mileage based) costs. There were many other examples. And they started their 'Footex' in fine condition, didn't always re-appear on Mondays in the same state...

In B.R. days great effort was taken to outshop as many coaches as possible from carriage works before they start of the works holiday. This produced the maximum size fleet just when it was needed - at holiday times. Stock for high season dated trains.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Look carefully at when people actually travel. One gets the feeling the railway is sitting waiting for the old demand patterns to re-emerge

And how do you ask freight when it wants to travel? Many of the possession times are fitted around times such as Easter when freight is not running. The railway is just as primarily for moving goods as it is passengers.

 

[dk1]

In B.R. days great effort was taken to outshop as many coaches as possible from carriage works before they start of the works holiday. This produced the maximum size fleet just when it was needed - at holiday times. Stock for high season dated trains.

Those arriving into Yarmouth during the 70s from the likes of Walsall & Newcastle left a lot to be desired.

 

[Master29]

Just an anomaly. Unit control obviously didn’t update the system.

I did suspect as much. There were chaotic scenes at Plymouth yesterday and I did fleetingly wonder if they had caved in to irate holiday makers having to wait an extra hour or so for the next train. Would have looked an interesting formation on the Albert Bridge for sure.

 

[RailWonderer]

What has probably made the crowding worse (in the South anyway) is a points failure on GWML, a signal failure at Blackwater on the North Downs, no Eizabeth line and no Met line and other tube disruption.

 

[dk1]

I did suspect as much. There were chaotic scenes at Plymouth yesterday and I did fleetingly wonder if they had caved in to irate holiday makers having to wait an extra hour or so for the next train. Would have looked an interesting formation on the Albert Bridge for sure.

That it would

 

[yorksrob]

Indeed. This is the key problem. Massive peaks 1000-1200 and then again 1600-1800. This is just a weekend thing too, although any longer BH weekend will make it more worthwhile. If anything leisure travel can be more ‘peaky’ than weekday commuter travel.

Across the whole 4 days, loadings are probably more, although the Friday will probably be busier than most other days.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Apr 2023 ==



The same is true of travelling by car too at specific times or is that “putting the blame on motorists”?

Interestingly having had Oxford - Didcot fail it’s some cognitive dissonance for some to then start talking about “non-essential” engineering works! But we get threads on this every bank holiday weekend and warm summer, but there’s only so many hours in a week and weeks in a year.

I also think pent-up demand is a little overblown - we’ve had a year plus without restrictions.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Apr 2023 ==



Harsh as it may be, this might be part of the problem. If at specific times of the day the railway cannot meet the demand with the supply, then pricing should be adjusted.

As taxpayers, we subsidise the railways for the social good. That means that people on lower incomes should be able to visit their friends and relatives as well

 

[thealexweb]

Been saying this for years. Public holidays are the busiest days of the year for UK rail.

 

[BigB]

Those arriving into Yarmouth during the 70s from the likes of Walsall & Newcastle left a lot to be desired.

I arrived today on a 755 - lovely journey, though Yarmouth is a better description than "Great" Yarmouth.
Chelmsford to Lowestoft, to Norwich, to Yarmouth, to Norwich, to Lowestoft, then Ipswich and back, with light loading away from the main Norwich services, but still got a table to myself on the 19:41 from Ipswich. Passengers don't like walking to get away from the crowds...
I also noted that there are more services on Saturday on many lines down here than weekdays, so not really stock sitting around at weekends, as often bandied around. Norwich Crown Point was quiet so the units must have been out and about.

 

[Jim the Jim]

Currently on the quietest London-Cambridge Saturday evening service I've ever been on ...

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Been saying this for years. Public holidays are the busiest days of the year for UK rail.

Depends what you are measuring. For passengers maybe but not for freight tonnage. UK rail encompasses both.

I suspect there are other days when passenger numbers are quite high (maybe not as high as public holidays) but also freight traffic is high and this will give you your busiest days of the year for UK rail.

 

[GS250]

The 'DC' services from Watford to Euston (temporarily terminating at Kilburn) have been pretty rammed. Me and my partner fancied a day in London yesterday. However lack of due diligence meant we got to Harrow and Wealdstone completely unaware of the engineering fiasco. So we decided on an impromptu day out in Richmond instead. That 'North London' line train from WHL to Richmond was rammed too.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

Thameslink services were rammed today. Southeastern services varied though. Sidcup and Sevenoaks full but Southeastern services on the Greenwich line were rather quiet.

 

[JamesT]

Been saying this for years. Public holidays are the busiest days of the year for UK rail.

Do you have any evidence for that claim? https://www.networkrail.co.uk/running-the-railway/looking-after-the-railway/planned-works/ states

on average, around half the usual five million people travel by train each day during the Christmas period.

 

[bramling]

Been saying this for years. Public holidays are the busiest days of the year for UK rail.

If you make a certain sort of journey, then perhaps. However plenty of trains run around very empty. Meanwhile, the likes of the Edale ramblers will only turn out if the weather is okay.

 

[yorksrob]

If you make a certain sort of journey, then perhaps. However plenty of trains run around very empty. Meanwhile, the likes of the Edale ramblers will only turn out if the weather is okay.

Ah yes, but the Edale ramblers deserve a four carriage hourly service (that they can catch - not rammed out by long distance passengers).

 

[dk1]

I arrived today on a 755 - lovely journey, though Yarmouth is a better description than "Great" Yarmouth.
Chelmsford to Lowestoft, to Norwich, to Yarmouth, to Norwich, to Lowestoft, then Ipswich and back, with light loading away from the main Norwich services, but still got a table to myself on the 19:41 from Ipswich. Passengers don't like walking to get away from the crowds...
I also noted that there are more services on Saturday on many lines down here than weekdays, so not really stock sitting around at weekends, as often bandied around. Norwich Crown Point was quiet so the units must have been out and about.

Glad you enjoyed everything mate but not sure what you mean by more services on Saturdays apart from the 08:09/18:04 Norwich to Yarmouth & return.

 

[Horizon22]

As taxpayers, we subsidise the railways for the social good. That means that people on lower incomes should be able to visit their friends and relatives as well

And that’s fine, but not everyone can fit on the 1030 from London to Big Northern City, no matter how many coaches you have.

 

[Llanigraham]

Even during Wales & Borders day they realised they should cover a few services with a loco hauled eight carriage train when students start and finish term, yet this year they'll be lucky to get a two car service every two hours. The University has only been there since 1872.

If you mean Aberystwyth Uni, there hasn't been an 8 carriage loco hauled service on that line for years.

It's not just two weekends a year though, it's every annual event, 20,000 plus sports event and many other tournaments most with plenty of notice to arrange extra services.
As TOC'S are standardising their fleets with very similar trains would it be too hard to pool resources by region and move them where it's required as they used to do?
Every region will have something on at a weekend requiring extra capacity most of the year. The festival organiser, one off sports events and local authorities realise not too hold too much at the same time so they can allocate resources, why is the railway always seemingly caught unaware or more likely bothered?

Because quite often the organisers of these events don't bother to get in touch with the transport businesses, both rail and road.

 

[Horizon22]

Been saying this for years. Public holidays are the busiest days of the year for UK rail.

I’m not sure the data backs that up, although someone like @Bald Rick is probably best placed to answer a question like that. Bank holidays can be very peaky.

That being said a better strategy for dealing with leisure peaks needed to be adopted, although it flies in the face of all the maintenance (stock and assets) and rostering orthodoxy and that’s not easy to turn on its head.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Apr 2023 ==

Because quite often the organisers of these events don't bother to get in touch with the transport businesses, both rail and road.

Indeed - when sporting organisations do things such as change venues with weeks or months warning and then slots bang into a set of engineering works and NR tells them this will be an issue. If I recall this happened with the FA cup (or similar) last year.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Do you have any evidence for that claim? https://www.networkrail.co.uk/running-the-railway/looking-after-the-railway/planned-works/ states "on average, around half the usual five million people travel by train each day during the Christmas period."

Confusing cause and effect there. Of course fewer people travel by train then - because the railways make it so difficult that people have to resort to other modes. I had to drive a 300 mile round trip one Christmas Day so that a family member (a nurse) could get from a family gathering (the first Christmas she had had with us for several years) to take up her shift on Boxing Day. Another family member, who worked in the church and therefore was busy until late morning on Christmas Day, had to hire a car to get any time with us over Christmas.

If a decent and reliable service was provided over the bank holiday periods, people would use it.

 

[dk1]

I’m not sure the data backs that up, although someone like @Bald Rick is probably best placed to answer a question like that. Bank holidays can be very peaky.

Exactly this!!

It’s what many don’t seem to grasp. They just see the busy and overcrowded parts of the weekend but nothing in between. Weekdays are far more spread out starting much earlier. It was recently announced that on strike days the loss to affected TOCs was something like £25m per day but only £15m on the Saturday.