Overcrowding during Easter

[JonathanH]

At a very minimum, they could do with (a) professionalising the replacement bus services, which often seem to be poorly-run, (b) advertising upcoming closures more prominently on websites etc. That’s going to be where occasional users will look.

Most people find out about engineering work when they go to journey planners on their favourite booking engine and don't find the expected trains running. I doubt they look on the operator's webpage.

 

[Robertj21a]

I don’t believe a word of it, nobody travels by train anymore.

As a proportion of the whole country that's absolutely accurate.

 

[A0]

At a very minimum, they could do with (a) professionalising the replacement bus services, which often seem to be poorly-run, (b) advertising upcoming closures more prominently on websites etc. That’s going to be where occasional users will look.


This shouldn’t be complicated.

Do you have any evidence for your bit in bold, or is that just opinion based on an antipathy to RRBs?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Apr 2023 ==

"Crowding ? What crowding ?" Say the DfT/Treasury/Government. "Let's scrap some more train fleets !".

Easter weekend, a but like the weekend before Christmas, isn't representative of the majority of weekends.

You don't keep an oversized fleet just to handle 2 weekends a year - the costs of doing so massively outweigh any benefits.

 

[yorksrob]

Do you have any evidence for your bit in bold, or is that just opinion based on an antipathy to RRBs?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Apr 2023 ==



Easter weekend, a but like the weekend before Christmas, isn't representative of the majority of weekends.

You don't keep an oversized fleet just to handle 2 weekends a year - the costs of doing so massively outweigh any benefits.

The fleets are already sized to carry ordinary business, therefore they should not be withdrawing them without replacement.

 

[davews]

OK St Pancras and Marylebone were chaos yesterday but that doesn't mean the whole railway is. I was up in London yesterday (walk along the Ravensbourne and elsewhere) and had no issues. Both Victoria and Waterloo were quieter than normal, apart from a pretty packed Jubilee line train there was plenty of room. Of course with no Southern services to Victoria yesterday that was very quiet.

 

[A0]

The fleets are already sized to carry ordinary business, therefore they should not be withdrawing them without replacement.

Easter weekend, Bank Holiday and the weekend before Christmas are not "ordinary business" - its a demand spike.

Ordinary business is what you'd have something like 70% of the time. And 70% of trains over a year don't run full and standing.

 

[Ken H]

Do you have any evidence for your bit in bold, or is that just opinion based on an antipathy to RRBs?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Apr 2023 ==



Easter weekend, a but like the weekend before Christmas, isn't representative of the majority of weekends.

You don't keep an oversized fleet just to handle 2 weekends a year - the costs of doing so massively outweigh any benefits.

BR used to. They didnt scrap everything once it ended front line service. Yeah, I know, its different now.

But surely they could look at rosters and consider where demand may be lower because people are off work Friday and Monday, but just might want to go for a jolly.

 

[6Gman]

Time them for relatively quiet weekends? October, early November, January, February and March (assuming Easter is not in March) and, if absolutely necessary, non-bank-holiday weekends in April, May and September.

I'd be interested to see stats to see if the incidence of engineering work on busy weekends (i.e. bank holiday weekends and all weekends June-Aug) has increased since the 90s. I swear it has, though have no hard evidence to back this up. It also seems to be the case that weekday engineering work (obviously more disruptive than the weekend) has increased in incidence.

If you're going to have skilled and economical teams to do the work don't you need some continuity of work?

I'd also suspect weather conditions influence how much work can get done.

 

[yorksrob]

Easter weekend, Bank Holiday and the weekend before Christmas are not "ordinary business" - its a demand spike.

Ordinary business is what you'd have something like 70% of the time. And 70% of trains over a year don't run full and standing.

And I repeat, the fleets until recently were sized for ordinary business, therefore they should not be withdrawing them without replacement.

 

[James90012]

It's the long distance routes which always have overcrowding on any Bank Holiday, which gets worse when other lines are closed.

The question I have is why relief services weren't contracted from St Pancras, they clearly would play a useful role in moving people compared to the random recent examples where NR has shelled out for spot hires and carried next to no-one.

 

[nw1]

Easter weekend, a but like the weekend before Christmas, isn't representative of the majority of weekends.

You don't keep an oversized fleet just to handle 2 weekends a year - the costs of doing so massively outweigh any benefits.

In the old days, railways used to keep spare stock precisely to handle peak demand.

Should people have to spend large amounts of money to stand because this mean, tight-fisted, penny-pinching, skinflint Government is dictating to the railway industry that they have to cut costs?

 

[Wolfie]

In the old days, railways used to keep spare stock precisely to handle peak demand.

Should people have to spend large amounts of money to stand because this mean, tight-fisted, penny-pinching, skinflint Government is dictating to the railway industry that they have to cut costs?

If you ask the average taxpayer if they are prepared to sign up to an open-ended cheque to the railway l strongly suspect that you would not like the response....

 

[nw1]

If you ask the average taxpayer if they are prepared to sign up to an open-ended cheque to the railway l strongly suspect that you would not like the response....

So how was the railway able to keep large amounts of stock for peak demand back in the days of BR? Why was it seen as politically acceptable then and not now? These were in the days of Thatcher, no less.

And it's not an "open-ended cheque", it's enough money to deliver an adequate service. And that includes providing adequate stock to cover peak demand. I'm not talking about limitless money to start re-opening closed lines, etc. Just provide adequate service on the existing network.

(I am not commenting on the timing or otherwise of engineering works here, btw).

 

[JonathanH]

And I repeat, the fleets until recently were sized for ordinary business, therefore they should not be withdrawing them without replacement.

They still are sized for ordinary business.

On the East Midlands route, they brought in 360s, which transferred Wellingborough passengers and added more capacity at Bedford and Luton, which allowed the HSTs to be withdrawn.

The question I have is why relief services weren't contracted from St Pancras, they clearly would play a useful role in moving people compared to the random recent examples where NR has shelled out for spot hires and carried next to no-one.

There was no doubt plenty of capacity on the 700s downstairs at St Pancras. One of the problems with adding more services on the MML is finding a reasonable path for a relief between 125mph Meridians, 110mph 360s and the Thameslink services.

As you say, the designated relief trains put on recently have often ended up empty. It is a difficult call to get additional capacity in the right place at the right time.

So how was the railway able to keep large amounts of stock for peak demand back in the days of BR? Why was it seen as politically acceptable then and not now? These were in the days of Thatcher, no less.

Isn't that just rose-tinted spectacles on just what spare stock was available for peak demand?

One part of it was running locomotive hauled trains on NSE routes for weekday peak demand which could then be used for relief trains at the weekend. That obviously stopped in the early 1990s just because that stock was replaced.

Unfortunately, as you know, you can't just stick a locomotive on the front of a 700 and run it to Sheffield.

 

[yorksrob]

They still are sized for ordinary business.

On the East Midlands route, they brought in 360s, which transferred Wellingborough passengers and added more capacity at Bedford and Luton, which allowed the HSTs to be withdrawn.


There was no doubt plenty of capacity on the 700s downstairs at St Pancras. One of the problems with adding more services on the MML is finding a reasonable path for a relief between 125mph Meridians, 110mph 360s and the Thameslink services.

As you say, the designated relief trains put on recently have often ended up empty. It is a difficult call to get additional capacity in the right place at the right time.


Isn't that just rose-tinted spectacles on just what spare stock was available for peak demand?

One part of it was running locomotive hauled trains on NSE routes for weekday peak demand which could then be used for relief trains at the weekend. That obviously stopped in the early 1990s just because that stock was replaced.

Unfortunately, as you know, you can't just stick a locomotive on the front of a 700 and run it to Sheffield.

Well, clearly not as the MML capacity to Leicester and North has been reduced. And they're apparently removing the 180's.

The reality on the ground is that the IC services struggle with too many shorter sets.

I was reading two articles in Modern railways recently, one on the withdrawal of HST's on great Western, the other 180's on EMR and it was laughable how both were forced to repeat in their statements word for word Government propaganda about "running a more efficient service" and "reflecting the way people are now travelling". This half-wit Government clearly assumes that we are as dim as they are.

 

[Snow1964]

Unfortunately, as you know, you can't just stick a locomotive on the front of a 700 and run it to Sheffield.

In theory you can, just we choose not to fit locos with compatible couplers, even if they swing into place. Or fit the electric units with ability to be hauled. I think the last ones designed to be hauled were the 442s which were designed to be diverted via non electrified Laverstock spur.

We seem to have lost the mixed traffic locos, that could be used on freight during the week, and help out on passenger trains at weekends. For decades railways had them with driving wheels bigger than freight locos, but smaller than passenger locos, fitted for carriage heating etc. Great for hauling extras.

Of course the alternative is to run the electric unit to a point where can provide cross platform interchange with a diesel unit, somewhere like Kettering. Not perfect for getting people from A to B, but lot better than train that is too crowded to be boarded. Instead we opt for running the diesel train over an hour under the wires and hour back, then wonder why not enough spare diesel stock.

 

[greyman42]

Certainly non-essential works should have avoided this specific Easter, given the pent up demand for traveling to see friends and family and domestic tourism.

With people supposedly having to choose between "heating and eating" i am surprised they can afford expensive train fares for visiting friends and tourism.

 

[yorksrob]

With people supposedly having to choose between "heating and eating" i am surprised they can afford expensive train fares for visiting friends and tourism.

I doubt that those individuals are going on expensive train journeys.

 

[Levrai]

Rail ‘mayhem’ as thousands stuck in London station queues likened to ‘last train out of Saigon’​

in The Independent (https://www.independent.co.uk/trave...easter-travel-london-trains-b2316141.html?amp):

My impression is, increasingly, that the people responsible for running the railways don't care one bit about their passengers. Now, of course, there are many for whom that is untrue, so it's an unfair sweeping statement, but it's one that's increasingly going to be made. We insist on high levels of worker safety, so it's pretty unavoidable to close the railway for engineering works, but it does seem increasingly that passengers have to struggle along as a result - not assisted by intolerable numbers of cancellations. But nobody seems "in charge" these days. I thought there was a plan for this, but it seems like hot air at the moment.

Take it from me, the report in the Indy is a gross exaggeration of what was happening there yesterday a.m. …. Travelling from Maidenhead to Nottingham via St P - no problems at all on journey from M’head even with restrictions on Elizabeth line…….every train on time (I.E. on prebooked 10:35 from St P) and space available on board …. Yes there were queues - but no way ‘thousands’ as claimed above - at the barrier and problems with some excess demand for Sheffield trains…. Staff did really well having to deal with some knob heads …. Got there (St P) at 10:00 waited for about 25 mins max…. It seems some people love to whinge about relatively SFA inconvenience and then engage in self publicising hyperbole…..

No issues at all either returning from Nottingham on 17:50…..

 

[Fleetmaster]

It may also be relevant that we have Ramadan, Passover and Easter all coinciding this year.

 

[baz962]

Probably going to be a lot of engineering work and or speed restrictions on the mml by the summer. A lot of wonky track appearing and it's getting terrible in places.

 

[Snow1964]

Certainly non-essential works should have avoided this specific Easter, given the pent up demand for traveling to see friends and family and domestic tourism.

I wonder to what extent having strikes earlier in the year, caused previous planned trips to be abandoned, so they have created extra trips at same time.

 

[Runningaround]

Do you have any evidence for your bit in bold, or is that just opinion based on an antipathy to RRBs?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Apr 2023 ==



Easter weekend, a but like the weekend before Christmas, isn't representative of the majority of weekends.

You don't keep an oversized fleet just to handle 2 weekends a year - the costs of doing so massively outweigh any benefits.

It's not just two weekends a year though, it's every annual event, 20,000 plus sports event and many other tournaments most with plenty of notice to arrange extra services.
As TOC'S are standardising their fleets with very similar trains would it be too hard to pool resources by region and move them where it's required as they used to do?
Every region will have something on at a weekend requiring extra capacity most of the year. The festival organiser, one off sports events and local authorities realise not too hold too much at the same time so they can allocate resources, why is the railway always seemingly caught unaware or more likely bothered?

 

[station_road]

Take it from me, the report in the Indy is a gross exaggeration of what was happening there yesterday a.m. …. Travelling from Maidenhead to Nottingham via St P - no problems at all on journey from M’head even with restrictions on Elizabeth line…….every train on time (I.E. on prebooked 10:35 from St P) and space available on board …. Yes there were queues - but no way ‘thousands’ as claimed above - at the barrier and problems with some excess demand for Sheffield trains…. Staff did really well having to deal with some knob heads …. Got there (St P) at 10:00 waited for about 25 mins max…. It seems some people love to whinge about relatively SFA inconvenience and then engage in self publicising hyperbole…..

No issues at all either returning from Nottingham on 17:50…..

The worst issues were later in the day and mostly on trains to Derby and Sheffield (for connections to west coast stations)

 

[plugwash]

So how was the railway able to keep large amounts of stock for peak demand back in the days of BR? Why was it seen as politically acceptable then and not now? These were in the days of Thatcher, no less.

Because in those days you could get away with keeping some ratty old coaches around the back of a depot at very little apparent cost and hooking them on to trains when you needed extra capacity.

Nowadays that is no longer possible for a number of reasons.

1. In a fragmented privatised system, everything has a pricetag.
2. Passenger trains are now run with an ever-growing variety of incompaitble multiple units rather than passive coaches hauled by locos. You can't simply slap on a passive extra coach, you have to slap on a whole extra unit.
3. H&S and PRM rules have meant that a lot of legacy stock needed expensive modifications if it was to remain usable for regular scheduled services,

 

[Western Sunset]

Railways are much more compartmentalised and thus less flexible in their approach, due to, amongst other things:

Driver's traction knowledge
Driver's route knowledge
Traction/rolling stock incompatibility
Route-specific stock
Bunker mentality by TOCs
Contractual leasing
Fewer routing options due to clearance issues
Inadequate design of infrastructure, eg limited layout at St Pancras for MML traffic
Tighter operational issues; such as DOO, specific stopping points on platforms, available platform lengths

I'm sure you'll think of others...

 

[JonathanH]

As TOC'S are standardising their fleets with very similar trains would it be too hard to pool resources by region and move them where it's required as they used to do?
Every region will have something on at a weekend requiring extra capacity most of the year. The festival organiser, one off sports events and local authorities realise not too hold too much at the same time so they can allocate resources, why is the railway always seemingly caught unaware or more likely bothered?

The railway does do this. GWR cancel Cardiff trains to provide stock for Cheltenham Festival and Glastonbury. In converse, they cancel other services, when there is Rugby at Cardiff. SWR cancel Windsor and Weybridge trains to provide stock for Ascot. Southern cancel trains to Reigate and Caterham to provide stock for the Epsom Derby.

It is a bit more difficult where there is a smaller fleet to shuffle, like on East Midlands.

 

[Haywain]

The question I have is why relief services weren't contracted from St Pancras, they clearly would play a useful role in moving people

Where would these relief trains have fitted in? There are only 4 platforms at St Pancras and they don't become spare for much of the time, and there is limited capacity on the lines to Bedford. As mwntioned elsewhere, there was probably plenty of space on the Thameslink services to Bedford but people don't want to use them.

 

[Horizon22]

Fewer people travel at Easter than any other time. They just all want to catch the same few trains.

Indeed. This is the key problem. Massive peaks 1000-1200 and then again 1600-1800. This is just a weekend thing too, although any longer BH weekend will make it more worthwhile. If anything leisure travel can be more ‘peaky’ than weekday commuter travel.

Across the whole 4 days, loadings are probably more, although the Friday will probably be busier than most other days.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Apr 2023 ==

Whilst I agree with you and I myself try to avoid the obviously busiest times, if this is what higher ups in the railway companies say/think, then it does smack of simply putting the blame onto the passengers.

The same is true of travelling by car too at specific times or is that “putting the blame on motorists”?

Interestingly having had Oxford - Didcot fail it’s some cognitive dissonance for some to then start talking about “non-essential” engineering works! But we get threads on this every bank holiday weekend and warm summer, but there’s only so many hours in a week and weeks in a year.

I also think pent-up demand is a little overblown - we’ve had a year plus without restrictions.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Apr 2023 ==

I doubt that those individuals are going on expensive train journeys.

Harsh as it may be, this might be part of the problem. If at specific times of the day the railway cannot meet the demand with the supply, then pricing should be adjusted.

 

[matacaster]

Could unit maintenance be replanned such that routine maintenance is avoided on peak days (start of holiday, end of holiday etc) so more units are available?