our rail network

[Fincra5]

Have to admit, those RailJet trains do look very nice.

 

[Greenback]

Our rail system is pretty average on the whole I;d say. Although we do have good frequency on many routes, the trains can be short and cramped outside of London, as Metroland says. The larger loading gauge abroad makes a difference - continental trains are roomier inside because of the gauge, and, running longer trains generally means less pressure to cram in as many seats as possible!

France can be quite variable. On one journey on the MEd coast we had a clean double deck train on the way, but an okld grimy and uncomfortable single deck train on the way back! It had hard plastic seats and we were quite glad the journeyw as only 20 minutes. So although we would rate the first train as superior to anything the UK has, the second one was vastly inferior, even to a Pacer!

We think the Ducth trains are very good, the Belgians not so good as ours, and we have been pleasantly surprised by Italian trains (and not the latest fast ones either, the standard inter city trains on what we could call the classic lines).

I don't think that our trains are as bad as some people, particularly the media, like to make out, but we are a long way from being perfect.

 

[gordonthemoron]

The Railjets don't travel at more than 125mph at present, and then only on some sections of track, i.e. Wien-Linz and perhaps Linz-Salzburg. I have not used first class, but second class is not that good, i.e. no carpets, high seat backs, uncomfortable non-reclining seats.

ICEs don't go that quick on non-hi-speed track either, eg. Munich-Berlin 590 kms in about 6 hours, average speed about 67mph , it can only get up to speed (230kph) between Ingolstadt & Nuremberg

 

[sprinterguy]

I have never found a cross-country train where I can't physically fit in an airline-style seat, like on CrossCountry 170s.

Out of curiosity, how tall are you? I'm 5' 11'', which is somewhere about average-ish in the present day, and I find the seating fitted to the Crosscountry 170s some of the most comfortable and well designed for the medium-distance regional journeys that they operate.
Especially when they are compared to the seating layout in Crosscountry's Voyagers, which I do find restricive, having felt "wedged-in" on several journeys of a couple of hours or more; the 170s offer comparitive luxury compared to that.

Yes, the British railway network has problems, as does any rail network in any other country. I think that the biggest factor constraining the quality of Britain's Railways is the opportunities that have been missed over the years, which are often not directly the fault of the railways themselves, but are usually due to the conditions of a broader political spectrum of decisions.

For example, in the late 70s BR took a chance with the APT project that would have given Britain an upgraded network of High Speed lines at up to proposed speeds of 155mph by the late 1980s, or would have at least accelerated the WCML to 125mph long before the recent route upgrade, but a lack of funding and a fall from political favour meant the project was capped.

The recent West Coast Route Upgrade gave the opportunity for 140mph tiliting trains on the WCML, again an opportunity sadly missed, as costs spiralled way above those predicted.

Virgin Crosscountry introduced a fleet of tilting Super Voyager trains that offered the opportunity to reduce journey times on core XC routes they were deployed on, only for Virgin to lose the franchise to Arriva, who have since isolated the tilt system on their 221 units, and Crosscountry journey times have been increased by the addition of extra recovery time into the schedules.

And most recently, following the change in government, it looks likely that the Crossrail and Thameslink projects are to be reduced in scope if they survive at all, reducing the benefits they would bring for a range of other countrywide projects (such as the Chat Moss electrification using cascaded ex-Thameslink EMUs, freeing up diesel units to boost capacity elsewhere).

Again a typical train on a regional line (such as Ely-Peterborough) here is provided by a 2 or 3 car turbostar or Spinter. In Germany, for instance, on Munich-Nuremberg, stopping at small towns en-route, the normal train would be a 6 car double deck, electrically hauled train push-pull train.

On a number of the regional routes operated by 2 or 3 car Turbos and Sprinters, these offer adequate capacity for the number of passengers using the service, outside of peak hours. A 6 car double deck formation carting around mainly fresh air would be unnecessary and an inefficient use of resources. On certain routes ovecorwding is indeed chronic, I'm thinking of the problems with the Liverpool to Norwich trains and Manchester area local services, and these WOULD benefit from greatly increased capacity, but in other areas a 2 car Sprinter is adequate for the level of demand on that route.

Overall, I think Britain's railway network manages very well with what it's got. It doesn't have access to unlimited financial capital to fund longer trains, which means that overcorwding is an issue and it is at the whim of fickle policy decisions and U-turns, but the operators do their best to make the most of the trains they have available to them and operate services on a day to day basis even when the future of capcaity enhancement projects is unclear.

Even after Beeching, Britain has a remarkable density of rail lines across the country and reasonably thorough route coverage to the larger areas of population, as well as reaching many of the rural areas of the country (Hope Valley, Heart of Wales, Whitby line). On most lines there is a frequent train service that often covers a wide range of destinations throughout the UK. Clockface timetables are applied to many routes, making the train services easier to understand. A passenger can turn up at the station at any point during the day and be confident that there will be a train not too far away heading to where they want to go, instead of their just being a couple of services a day to a particular destination. Generally trains are well maintained and reliable, which is a credit to the operators who are running fleets at 95% daily usage in some cases. The average age of the train fleets operating in the UK is probaly the lowest it's ever been! Admittedly there are a lot of small, non standard fleets, but investment in new rolling stock has nonetheless been made.

So overall, Britain's railways are doing the best they can with the cards they have been dealt. There are many problems to be overcome, but many of these issues are out of the hands of the train operators etc as it is down to decisions made at a higher level meaning that opportunites on the railway are lost due to a lack of joined up thinking at local and central government level, where public transport is an easy target for budget cuts without upsetting voters. The railways definitely have room for improvement (improving service levels on rural lines for instance), but things could be an awful lot worse, and Britain's railways don not deserve the type of all encompassing judegments made by the OP.

 

[reb0118]

France is a good example. In the UK a lot of smaller mainline stations see hourly or two hourly services. In France it will often be just 2 or three trains per day. Branches are often replaced with buses.

I've just looked at Roscoff to Lannion (I'm thinking of going on Holiday there arriving at Roscoff on the overnight Ferry)

First Connection after 0700 is......

1632 From Roscoff into Morlaix for 1700
Two hour wait at Morlaix
Dep at 1857 to arrive at Lannion at 1942.

This is for a 50 mile trip! A 10(ish) hour wait in Roscoff for the first train after 7am!

The fare is €12 which is about £10 - Exeter to Plymouth (about 50 miles by rail) to get the ferry is £7.50 Off Peak...

Yes, well said. I help my colleagues out on occasion to book their European rail trips. I was going to recommend using the ferry from Plymouth to Roscoff and then travelling down through the Atlantic coast of France to la Rochelle. This proved to be a logistical nightmare so in the end had to suggest the Eurostar and direct to La Rochelle. Still they enjoyed their trip though.

 

[merlodlliw]

Chester to Shrewsbury takes an hour, surely that could be better if the 158s can go up to 90mph,
we may have a good rail system like you said, but its still not good enuff, cus every time we want more services, theres no rolling stock.

Two points my Deva friend.
1.Is it because there is an hourly service to London from Chester?

2.The Chester to Shrewsbury line will improve if the doubling goes ahead between Saltney & Rossett,however the line between Wrexham & Salop
is rough.

3.Forums Robert of Deva, are helpful in many ways, having the chance to question, Network rail staff & W/S drivers for example & getting the correct answers plus fares from front line staff however well done, you have three pages of comment.

M

 

[stut]

Out of curiosity, how tall are you? I'm 5' 11'', which is somewhere about average-ish in the present day, and I find the seating fitted to the Crosscountry 170s some of the most comfortable and well designed for the medium-distance regional journeys that they operate.

I'm 6'1" - above average, but able to buy clothes in any shop

I find them the worst of all worlds. With my backside flat against the rear seat cushion, my knee will not fit against the seatback in front, unless I want to take up part of the space next to me (same goes for most 156s and non-EMT 158s, incidentally...) Sat bolt upright for maximum fit, the pointed headresty bits in the seat sit uncomfortably across my shoulders, forcing me to lean forwards.

If you can get a table seat with nobody opposite, then it's fine. But just try that on a peak time Brum - Stansted service!

I don't really like the Voyagers, but find that the higher seating position relieves some of this. And there's not pointy bits stuck in my shoulder blade either...

 

[tbtc]

Chester to Shrewsbury takes an hour, surely that could be better if the 158s can go up to 90mph

...or goes via Crewe?

 

[Matt Taylor]

If we want a step change in quality of service on Britain's railways then we have to address many fundamental issues, capacity, ticket complexity, ticket prices, integration with buses/trams, an expansion of high speed lines and resignalling of current 'classic' high speed lines. The private sector will not deal with these issues as they are only concerned with themselves and their own issues (quite rightly for private companies). This kind of modernisation can only be managed and financed by the public sector and that will never happen so long as the electorate of this country keep voting in governments pledging to cut taxes and public spending.

Ultimately, we get what we vote for.

 

[Metroland]

ICEs don't go that quick on non-hi-speed track either, eg. Munich-Berlin 590 kms in about 6 hours, average speed about 67mph , it can only get up to speed (230kph) between Ingolstadt & Nuremberg

Indeed, the German, Swiss and Austrians seem to build small stretches of HSR (sometimes not that HSR!) where needed.

For ICE served lines:

* red: High-speed lines for 300 km/h (186 mph)
* orange: High-speed lines for 250 to 280 km/h (156 to 175 mph)
* blue: Upgraded lines, 200 to 230 km/h (125 to 145 mph)
* grey: Other lines, max. 160 km/h (100 mph)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:ICE_Network.png

Ultimately, we get what we vote for.[/QUOTE]

Exactly so.

 

[scandal]

The Railjets don't travel at more than 125mph at present, and then only on some sections of track, i.e. Wien-Linz and perhaps Linz-Salzburg. I have not used first class, but second class is not that good, i.e. no carpets, high seat backs, uncomfortable non-reclining seats.

The seats are similar I believe to those used on FGW HSTs albeit with bigger headrests, the seats however are far better than that on the TGV/Eurostar trains which have headrest wings that get in the way when you want to relax I find and the railjet doesn't even charge a supplement like the other High Speed trains do. The seats also had plugs underneath that impressed me in standard I found them comfortable with ample luggage room with the GPS displays being the particular highlight of the service. First and Premier Class are amazing from what I saw of them although naturally I couldnt afford to use them. Just because a service doesnt have a carpet is that necissarily a bad thing? Isn't iot more to keep the train clean rather then to show quality, I'd prefer a clear rubber floor to a stained carpet anyday.