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robert2000

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time to be honest, our trains are crap and slow, we need more new and electric trains.

The timetables are awful in some cases.

Train companies seem to concentrate on London all the time.
 
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Oswyntail

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time to be honest, our trains are crap and slow, we need more new and electric trains.
Some of our trains are showing their age, some are slow. But most, IMHO, are up to the standard of their equivalents elsewhere. And speed is not necessarily the be-all-and-end-all

The timetables are awful in some cases.
Agreed. There could be a lot more co-ordination between TOCs

Train companies seem to concentrate on London all the time.
If they serve London that's fair - if no, they don't. What I think most would agree with is that those who hold the purse strings do favour services for London over those that don't when it comes to investment. (See other threads, passim)
 

robert2000

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and another point, if there was better services then we wouldnt need this forum, fair comment i think. lol
 

stut

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By casual observation, we do seem to have the least comfortable trains of anywhere I've travelled. This is the only country where I regularly find my legs won't fit into the space provided - I've never seen that anywhere else, not even in far more crowded places!
 

Geezertronic

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time to be honest, our trains are crap and slow, we need more new and electric trains.

There's nothing wrong with the 350s and 390s that I use around Birmingham and to London. Even the 323's on the Cross City are not that bad

The timetables are awful in some cases.

No problems with the timetables in and around Birmingham

Train companies seem to concentrate on London all the time.

I doubt XC do...

and another point, if there was better services then we wouldnt need this forum, fair comment i think. lol

There is always a need for forums like this...
 

tbtc

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I wouldn't say FSR concentrate on London, tbh

..they still use more resources on London than Northern/ Arriva Trains Wales/ Cross Country/ First Transpennine do though, to be fair.

Cross Country used to serve London (but don't) whilst Arriva Trains Wales want to serve London...

North Western (who ran part of what is now Northern) and Wales & West (who ran part of what is now Arriva Trains Wales) used to serve London too.
 

mrcheek

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trains are slow?

The UK has more 100mph trains than any other country in the world.
 

EM2

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By casual observation, we do seem to have the least comfortable trains of anywhere I've travelled. This is the only country where I regularly find my legs won't fit into the space provided - I've never seen that anywhere else, not even in far more crowded places!
Try Belgium. Their trains may well have plenty of legroom but you'll be sitting on a slatted wooden bench (in standard, anyway).
 

Dai.

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and another point, if there was better services then we wouldnt need this forum, fair comment i think. lol

If you only use this forum to complain about the rail industry then I'd agree you wouldn't need it, but some people come on here for a lot more.

Personally I come on to ask questions about the rail industry and fares, so if the rail industry does improve I'd still have questions and I'd still need the forum.
 

Fincra5

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I'm not sure what you are trying to get at robert. Yes some areas have older trains but there are many new ones; Electrostars, Turbostars, Pendolinos, Desiros, Voyagers and Meridians. We have many electric trains, some areas it would be a wait of power to electrify and end up costing more.

We have trains from 75-140mph which isn't exactly slow.

If you get away from the high speed network in france you will probably find awful services where as here we have good off mainline services.
 

starrymarkb

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France is a good example. In the UK a lot of smaller mainline stations see hourly or two hourly sevices. In France it will often be just 2 or three trains per day. Branches are often replaced with buses.

I've just looked at Roscoff to Lannion (I'm thinking of going on Holiday there arriving at Roscoff on the overnight Ferry)

First Connection after 0700 is......

1632 From Roscoff into Morlaix for 1700
Two hour wait at Morlaix
Dep at 1857 to arrive at Lannion at 1942.

This is for a 50 mile trip! A 10(ish) hour wait in Roscoff for the first train after 7am!

The fare is €12 which is about £10 - Exeter to Plymouth (about 50 miles by rail) to get the ferry is £7.50 Off Peak...
 

Ploughman

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Main line times are not really a problem.
Its when you have to travel across the country that problems come up.
In 2 hours I can be in London but at about half the distance It takes nearly an hour longer to get to Southport from York.
I can drive it legally in 2 hours why should I go by train and waste the hour each way?
 

daccer

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11 Feb 2009
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We are a curious bunch - our network compares favourably with many parts of the world and is only lacking in some areas (High Speed etc) that are being caught up with (hopefully!) To denigrate the network as a whole when it has many good points is to miss the point. It is these inconsistencies that give rise to many of the discussions on this forum. I am sure any network in the world has its equivalents of Pacers and Wakefield Kirkgate we are probably just more vociferous in pointing them out. I only come back to the UK once a year and I think the network is fine and is getting better - whether that continues in the current economic environment is another rmatter!
 

Matt Taylor

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Portsmouth
I think this constant 'foreign railways are so much better' attitude is very tiresome and tends to peddled by those with very limited experiences of overseas rail travel at best. My experience of railways overseas tells me that we have a good system here, my last significant journey on the trains in New South Wales included a delay of over half an hour, a lack of information on the delay, an uncomfortable seat plus quite a few people who had to stand. I've used the Swiss system and I don't see why people use it as some kind of standard to which we should aspire-in my experience it was distinctly average.
 

EM2

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Indeed. I know people who have had to stand for two hours on an ICE in Germany, because it was short-formed and it was then delayed for thirty minutes on top of that.
 

tbtc

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I think this constant 'foreign railways are so much better' attitude is very tiresome and tends to peddled by those with very limited experiences of overseas rail travel at best

Spot on.

You see the best another country has to offer, and then we compare it to the everyday average experience in the UK.

Its a bit like people claiming that Spanish football is significantly better than football here because the only experience they have of it is Barcelona and Real Madrid.

You can have High Speed railways with a couple of trains a day on "non core" routes, or you can have "turn up and go" frequencies on many core routes (e.g. half hourly on a lot of long distance routes) at a reasonable speed. People will complain oneway or the other
 

GodAtum

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Main line times are not really a problem.
Its when you have to travel across the country that problems come up.
In 2 hours I can be in London but at about half the distance It takes nearly an hour longer to get to Southport from York.
I can drive it legally in 2 hours why should I go by train and waste the hour each way?

And its often more expensive to travel short distances around London and the south east then it is to travel across country.
 

Donny Dave

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Doncaster
The main problem I see with the UK railway network is the ticketing system ....

After all, why should someone be punished when they want to take 2 kids for a day out, but with a very creative solution, then can get what they want for £75 less, plus the adult gets a 3 in 7 rover at the same time?

Case in point. I'm taking my nephew and 1 of his friends to Wolverton for the open day there. 1 Adult + 2 children = £176.60. There is no way in hell I'm paying that, so looking at the various alternatives (it's taken me an hour of looking though), I'm getting myself a East Midlinds 3 in 7 rover for £67, and the 2 children get to/from Wolverton for £35 between them !!!!

The sooner the mess that is the ticketing system is sorted out, the better ....
 

robert2000

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20 Feb 2009
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Chester
Chester to Shrewsbury takes an hour, surely that could be better if the 158s can go up to 90mph,
we may have a good rail system like you said, but its still not good enuff, cus every time we want more services, theres no rolling stock.
 

Metroland

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I think this constant 'foreign railways are so much better' attitude is very tiresome and tends to peddled by those with very limited experiences of overseas rail travel at best. My experience of railways overseas tells me that we have a good system here, my last significant journey on the trains in New South Wales included a delay of over half an hour, a lack of information on the delay, an uncomfortable seat plus quite a few people who had to stand. I've used the Swiss system and I don't see why people use it as some kind of standard to which we should aspire-in my experience it was distinctly average.

You reckon? Swiss, German, Austrian is probably better in some ways with what is on offer here. Towns the size of Nottingham in Germany, usually have tram systems, S-Bahns, and sometimes trolley buses too in one place. In fact most towns of any size of the continent have trams/trolley buses or are putting them in. That would be like Plymouth, Exeter, Bristol, Leeds, Swindon, Cambridge, Oxford, York, Swansea and so on all having trams, but the best we have is make-believe trams. (FTR)

You also don't seem to be fighting for space abroad, I've only been on one overcrowded train. Express trains are usually 12-16 coaches and a lot of services are double deck. Something like Zurich-Lucern, which would be the equivalent of Birmingham - Derby has a 1/2 hourly double deck service with brand new coaches. Here, between Liverpool and Manchester you have a 2 or 3 car pacer/Sprinter. And that's fairly typical of the north.

Swiss time keeping is better than here, and it's 100% electrified.

I'm sure there are horror stories from everywhere, but having used trains abroad there is some truth in some of the claims.

I'm not entirely sure Italian, Belgium or Dutch trains are better.

Though one thing most European countries are good at is integrated tickets.

France is probably overrated though, off the TGV network it is decidedly average, to quite poor.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Spot on.

You see the best another country has to offer, and then we compare it to the everyday average experience in the UK.

Its a bit like people claiming that Spanish football is significantly better than football here because the only experience they have of it is Barcelona and Real Madrid.

You can have High Speed railways with a couple of trains a day on "non core" routes, or you can have "turn up and go" frequencies on many core routes (e.g. half hourly on a lot of long distance routes) at a reasonable speed. People will complain oneway or the other

We tend to go for short trains at high frequency, where as apart from very main lines, abroad has 1/2 hourly at most, usually hourly electric, hauled trains on regional/intercity routes or high speed trains using classic routes very much like BR used to do.

But with short trains come overcrowding, and UK tickets don't tend to be integrated with buses outside PTE areas.

One thing that is apparent abroad is there is much more late night/overnight trains.

Swiss, German, Austrain and Dutch timetables are here, if you know the geography, you can compare the prices and service levels

http://fahrplan.sbb.ch/bin/query.exe/en?

http://www.bahn.com/i/view/GBR/en/index.shtml

http://www.ns.nl/cs/Satellite/travellers

http://www.oebb.at/en/index.jsp
 
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stut

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I think this constant 'foreign railways are so much better' attitude is very tiresome and tends to peddled by those with very limited experiences of overseas rail travel at best.

Well, I've had periods of commuting by train in Brussels, Amsterdam, Sydney, Melbourne, Brisbane, Southern California, Zurich, Oslo, Prague and multiple locations in France (including Paris).

I've done business travel by both local and long-distance train in France, Germany, the Netherlands, Poland, Switzerland, Italy, Southern California, all over Australia, Romania, Slovakia, Hungary, the Czech Republic, Austria and possibly a couple more I've forgotten.

I've done leisure travel by both local and long-distance train in all the above countries, plus many more including Russia, China, India, Pakistan, the Philippines, Japan, Uzbekistan, Peru, all over the USA, Morocco...

So I do have some experience.

The least comfortable journey I've done was a 3 hour ride in a Russian commuter train - 6 across (wide gauge), on uncovered, upright wooden benches. Ouch. The most crowded, predictably, was in Mumbai, on the suburban lines. You don't realise until you go there what a prime position the 'clinging to the outside of the doors' spot it!

Where I lived in France, we didn't have TGV, so I was on TER and Corail. At one point, I lived in Strasbourg, meaning it was a mix of SNCF Alsace (running on the right - they still think they're German) and DB - usually on a Schoenes Wochenendeticket, so on RB, D and RE trains only, all round Baden-Wuerttemberg.

But, you know, I have never, in Western Europe, found a train with seats as narrow as a UK 5-across commuter train. I have never found a cross-country train where I can't physically fit in an airline-style seat, like on CrossCountry 170s. I've never been on an inter-city train where I can't get a table seat with the people I'm travelling with, like on FGW. I've never been on a long-distance train where I feel ill, like on a Voyager. I've never been on a premium route where I've been unabled to use a laptop on a seat-back drop down, like on East Coast.

And you know, France is significantly less densely populated than we are. Many of the branch lines with poor services would simply not exist here. Where there is a similar population density (particularly in the north), the service is much better - look at TER Nord Pas de Calais or TER Picardie. Actually, Amiens is a good example - no TGV, but about 90 miles from Paris, only 135k population, and few other population centres around. And yet still you have an hourly service to Paris and Lille, with plenty of rural services connecting into it.

As for Switzerland, catching an inter-regional or inter-city train there isn't an event. There's no prebooking, planning weeks in advance, queueing up at the terminal station... Nope, it's just how people travel. The trains are busy but never full, and full of people - gasp - talking to each other. In most of the country (certainly the more central Cantons), you could set your watch by them. And they are spotlessly clean.

Perhaps in this country we insist on carpeting and excessive padding. Personally, give me a Swiss or Belgian 'bench-type' seat any day over any regional offering in this country.

Yes, I've had delays. Yes, I've been on overcrowded trains. Yes, I've seen patchy services, or ones that stop absurdly early in the evening. I've seen fares go up and up and I've seen the cheapest fares moved to inflexible tickets.

However, I've never turned up at a station abroad to find a public overbridge blocked by aggressive ticket inspectors (happens to me regularly here). I haven't seen people shouted at for bringing on a folding bike that's "slightly too large" into an empty luggage rack. I haven't seen fares increase by a factor of 10 because I couldn't determine business plans far in advance. I've never been left for an hour with no information during a problem, only to be told they can't get me home that day, whether by bus or taxi, because I have a bike with me. I've never had to change 3 times on an indirect route to get to a major terminus on the same line because it's cheaper to run non-stop trains than run services at the speed they were designed for. I've never turned up a a major commuter hub to find there are no connecting buses, just some irregular routes a 10-minute walk away.

Yes, of course there are problems abroad too. No systems are perfect. And yes, there are some things that we do well. I wouldn't use train as my primary form of transport if there weren't. But this kind of defensive complacency is exactly what keeps the railways in the state they are in today.
 

Metroland

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Yes, I recently got a a cross country voyager with a laptop and found it impossible to see the screen/operate on those airline seats despite having a plug provided.

I think the thing about the UK is it's patchy. Some lines have good signalling/line speeds and services to match, on other lines, especially in the north, you have 1-3 car trains, hourly at best, semaphore signalling and modest speeds.

Again a typical train on a regional line (such as Ely-Peterborough) here is provided by a 2 or 3 car turbostar or Spinter. In Germany, for instance, on Munich-Nuremberg, stopping at small towns en-route, the normal train would be a 6 car double deck, electrically hauled train push-pull train.

Certainly 4 car voyagers would never be tolerated abroad on main lines, you would have 16 coach trains, probably formed of various countries stock, or two ICEs or TGVs coupled together. DB/SNCF/Swiss/Italian/Austrian stock on one train is not uncommon on the European main land on 'Eurocity' type trains.

They don't seem to go for MUs as much (although some of the newer HSTs like ICE are MUs). For instance, the new railjet trains in Austria are 143mph hauled stock. http://www.seat61.com/railjet.htm

We go on about capacity, but apart from main commuter lines in the SE, the West and East coast main lines, and the HSTs on the GWML/XC route, this is the land of the dinky train, short, with the one of the smallest loading gauges in the world.
 
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