ORR unveils station usage data between April 2022 and March 2023

[northwichcat]

What law do you say TfL is breaking?

Signs have been put up at stations explaining the Wi-Fi data collection that is taking place and how to opt-out.

As I stated the law requires consent to collect data. You were implying TfL has an accurate record of who travels which way through WiFi data. I was disputing that, as there's no feasible legal way of collecting that. You only collect the data from some passengers, and the collection sample may not be representative of all passengers. For example, would someone without a phone be more or less likely to take an alternative route due to the TfL website saying there are delays on one specific route?

However, if you would like to opt-out, you can do this by turning off Wi-Fi on your device, turning your device off or putting your device into airplane mode while at our stations.

I don't walk around with WiFi turned on when I'm not connected to a network and not trying to connect. That just results in the battery running down quicker. Therefore, you have no record of my journeys other than by where I tapped in and out. I'm not exercising any right to opt out as the result of signage, I'm choosing not to opt in by leaving it turned off.

 

[357]

As I stated the law requires consent to collect data. You were implying TfL has an accurate record of who travels which way through WiFi data. I was disputing that, as there's no feasible legal way of collecting that. You only collect the data from some passengers, and the collection sample may not be representative of all passengers. For example, would someone without a phone be more or less likely to take an alternative route due to the TfL website saying there are delays on one specific route?



I don't walk around with WiFi turned on when I'm not connected to a network and not trying to connect. That just results in the battery running down quicker. Therefore, you have no record of my journeys other than by where I tapped in and out. I'm not exercising any right to opt out as the result of signage, I'm choosing not to opt in by leaving it turned off.

Well I hope you feel better now.

 

[Hagbard Celine]

Borders is quite interesting as I would argue that the three Borders Stations are the 'success' which is what I expected given the good existing bus service in Midlothian (contrary to @tbtc) (with the village of Stow getting 2tph post COVID as well while the bus service has been cut to 1p2h) with the Midlothian stations underperforming despite the amount of new housing.That said I'm fairly surprised Eskbank hasn't recovered closer to precovid levels even taking into account the dense bus service (as it was heaving with people going to Edinburgh on a Saturday in August last year when I used it go to Tweedbank).

None of the Borders line stations have recovered to the level of the first full year after opening (2016/17) with the exception of Shawfair, which with 44362 entries and exits is double what it had in 2016/17. However it is still the least used station on the line.

 

[yorksrob]

None of the Borders line stations have recovered to the level of the first full year after opening (2016/17) with the exception of Shawfair, which with 44362 entries and exits is double what it had in 2016/17. However it is still the least used station on the line.

Is that not similar to a lot of stations across the UK.

 

[Notabene]

A healthy 15% increase at Bridlington

 

[philosopher]

Similarly at the bottom end, the outliers are mainly stations that form parts of group where there may have been recalcuations done - Canon Street, Moorgate. I presume that Lake was affected by the various closures on the Isle of Wight line. Does anyone know the story behind Oxford Road in Manchester - is that commuter changes, or something else? Ditto Snow Hill? My hunch is that they may be down to accounting rather than any real change.

​

For Snow Hill, I think of two reasons. First, it is a station very used mainly by office commuters, so will have been particularly impacted by the increase in WFH since 2018 / 2019. Second, Chiltern have largely stopped serving it on weekends.

 

[deltic]

As I stated the law requires consent to collect data. You were implying TfL has an accurate record of who travels which way through WiFi data. I was disputing that, as there's no feasible legal way of collecting that. You only collect the data from some passengers, and the collection sample may not be representative of all passengers. For example, would someone without a phone be more or less likely to take an alternative route due to the TfL website saying there are delays on one specific route?

Its highly unlikely that people with and without wifi collected by TfL make very different decisions on how they use the network. We are talking about millions of movements being measured here and a relatively limited number of ways to make a trip between 2 sets of stations.

 

[InOban]

None of the Borders line stations have recovered to the level of the first full year after opening (2016/17) with the exception of Shawfair, which with 44362 entries and exits is double what it had in 2016/17. However it is still the least used station on the line.

Many more houses have now been built in the Shawfair area.

 

[dk1]

Stunning growth at old metro (now EL) stations between Stratford & Shenfield.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Dec 2023 ==

These were some of the first to recover too during the pandemic.

 

[stuu]

As I stated the law requires consent to collect data. You were implying TfL has an accurate record of who travels which way through WiFi data. I was disputing that, as there's no feasible legal way of collecting that. You only collect the data from some passengers, and the collection sample may not be representative of all passengers. For example, would someone without a phone be more or less likely to take an alternative route due to the TfL website saying there are delays on one specific route?



I don't walk around with WiFi turned on when I'm not connected to a network and not trying to connect. That just results in the battery running down quicker. Therefore, you have no record of my journeys other than by where I tapped in and out. I'm not exercising any right to opt out as the result of signage, I'm choosing not to opt in by leaving it turned off.

Something like 95% of the adult population has a smartphone, and I would bet that enough of those to be considered a representative sample don't bother turning their wifi off when they are travelling. I really don't believe that is a common practice. Once the tube network is enabled for data throughout they will have even more accurate information, as the number of people who turn their phones off or onto airplane mode just because they are on the tube is not even a rounding error

 

[northwichcat]

Something like 95% of the adult population has a smartphone, and I would bet that enough of those to be considered a representative sample don't bother turning their wifi off when they are travelling.

I didn't say anything about turning off when I'm travelling. I was referring to only turning it on when I'm actually intending to connect to WiFi. WiFi can be slower than 4G/5G and most people have very generous data allowances now - some even have unlimited data. On a Pendolino journey from Stockport to London I often find the places where the on board WiFi can't connect to the Internet, are the same as where there's no mobile data signal.

When talking about phone WiFi don't forget that many people don't know the difference between mobile data and WiFi. People complain of no WiFi signal when their network connection drops.

onto airplane mode

I think the only people using airport mode will be the ones who have arrived at Heathrow who have forgotten to switch it off.

We are talking about millions of movements being measured here and a relatively limited number of ways to make a trip between 2 sets of stations.

There's limited ways of arriving into Manchester, Liverpool and Birmingham from a set station, but that doesn't prevent station estimates for specific stations getting revised significantly all the time as more data becomes available about trends.

 

[stuu]

I didn't say anything about turning off when I'm travelling. I was referring to only turning it on when I'm actually intending to connect to WiFi. W

The outcome is the same, that is purely semantics. My guess is that the vast majority of people just keep their wifi switch on all the time

 

[paulmch]

Has Corby been used more by people wanting nearby destinations on the Midland Mainline while their stations and line has been shut for electrification ?.

I hope it is caused by the improved service and it then goes to show what the latent demand was.

Hopefully it's the latent demand - Corby has grown pretty significantly over the last 10 years or so!

Market Harborough had replacement buses running at weekends for a big chunk of 22/23 but given the time it would take to drive to Corby and then get the train via Manton Junction and reversing at Leicester it'd probably be much quicker to just use the bus.

 

[Acfb]

None of the Borders line stations have recovered to the level of the first full year after opening (2016/17) with the exception of Shawfair, which with 44362 entries and exits is double what it had in 2016/17. However it is still the least used station on the line.

A chunk of Shawfair users will also be people who work at the SQA, even though it's around a mile away.

 

[takno]

The outcome is the same, that is purely semantics. My guess is that the vast majority of people just keep their wifi switch on all the time

I just checked and mine is off at the minute. It only ever connects when it's in my flat anyway, and even there there's no actual benefit to using wifi over 4g. It will have turned off because it was trying to connect to a wifi I wasn't interested in or which wasn't working very well at some point. My guess is that the number of people who have wifi switched on at any one time is probably 80% and falling. All guesswork of course, but my guess isn't any less valid than yours

 

[ChrisC]

For untapped demand surely Mansfield as it in spades with only 302,000+111,000 entries and exits compared to it's population of 108,000. This will be driven by the poor service along the line and the lack of destinations. The main issue being the Single Track section although it could be worked around with Pye Bridge. I could also suggest a lessening of services at Newstead (30,000) to facilitate quicker Nottingham trains (also cite that Hucknall and Bulwell have the trams)

Yes a huge drop at Mansfield compared to 400,000+ before Covid. From 1995, when the station reopened, Mansfield had 2tph to Nottingham but this was cut to 1tph in 2020 during the Covid lockdowns. The single track sections were never a big problem for the 25 years that Mansfield had 2tph. A new timetable was introduced in May 2021 when the 2tph were restored but it didn’t work and there were big problems with delays along the single line section and it was back to 1tph after just a few weeks. The 2tph has never been tried again. Why can’t the original timetable, which had been operating successfully all those years, be restored? Could it be that the Class 170’s can’t keep to time? Even with the reduced timetable, journey times are longer than before. The Stagecoach Pronto bus is every 15 minutes between Mansfield and Nottingham and the £2 fare must be attracting many former rail users. I rarely use the line now, because connections in Nottingham to and from so many places require a wait of up to an hour and I don’t find 1tph convenient or attractive enough in comparison to buses and trams. I used the train regularly when it was 2tph.

 

[357]

WiFi can be slower than 4G/5G

Even on the tube?

 

[thenorthern]

The two tickets to Teesside Airport were apparently sold from Crewe. I assume that is someone visiting the station for the day and not just someone who collects tickets.

 

[InkyScrolls]

The two tickets to Teesside Airport were apparently sold from Crewe. I assume that is someone visiting the station for the day and not just someone who collects tickets.

There must be a mistake somewhere because I bought one of the tickets and definitely didn't come from Crewe!

 

[InTheEastMids]

Hopefully it's the latent demand - Corby has grown pretty significantly over the last 10 years or so!

Market Harborough had replacement buses running at weekends for a big chunk of 22/23 but given the time it would take to drive to Corby and then get the train via Manton Junction and reversing at Leicester it'd probably be much quicker to just use the bus.

I don't think MMLE works will shift much demand to Corby. More likely to go to Kettering (if the south MML is working) or Northampton which is also attractive as it's much cheaper. Some might go to Rugby too.

So I think Corby growth is likely to be "real" growth.

 

[Sleepy]

Wonder why St Ives is showing as zero full fare entries and exits (as do all the other branch line stations) ??

 

[Richardr]

See the report comments in on EL station interchange volumes - simple answer ORR state that the interchange numbers are vast underestimates and they are undertaking work to improve the situation.

Station with interchange number underestimates are flagged in columns J & K of the table 1410 spreadsheet.

The ability/need to use or not use (in most cases) the card readers when interchanging will cloud things at Farringdon e.g. GTR Key on TL followed by oyster/ contactless on EL would count as an exit + an entry but not oyster/contactless for both TL and EL.

That's right, but what I was getting at is that as I read it not only as the report says that the interchange numbers are vast underestimates, but the entry / exits are as a result vast over estimates. Take Farringdon - the most popular destination is now Liverpool Street. Few people will just be travelling just that journey, and vitually no one will change from the tube at Farringdon, to make that journey. I suspect virtually all people on that journey will either arrive / depart at Farringdon, or arrive / depart at Liverpool Street on another train (or some at both ends) and as such will count as an entrance and an exit each time they do that - so for say a commuter will be four entry / exits a day at each of those stations where they have really interchanged.

 

[Class 170101]

I have the same puzzlement with Liverpool Street - up from 30m to 80m ?.
This is a very big increase to get just from one new line over the existing six tracks into Liverpool Street.

So what were Paddington and Liverpool Street like just before Covid - is it mostly down to a post Covid recovery ?.
If anything I would expect the Elizabeth line to have reduced entries and Exits at Paddington and Liverpool Street with people simply passing through.

Liverpool Street may well have an increase from journey changes. So for example from the South Eastern network its now better to exit at Liverpool Street rather London Bridge by changing at Abbey Wood / Woolwich.

Also how many passengers have changed from the Central / District Lines onto Crossrail as their primary route into / out of London?

 

[railfan99]

Thanks for the post.
The station < 100

Station name	Entries and exits - All tickets
Denton	34​
Elton and Orston	56​
Kirton Lindsey	94​
Reddish South	100​
Teesside Airport	2​

I had though Garth on the Heart of Wales "branch" line was one of the lowest in a previous edition, but it's had a significant rise.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Is that not similar to a lot of stations across the UK.

I haven't looked at the Borders' Line figures, but what does appear to be significant is the poor recovery on tertiary lines, lines which have tended to have a disproportionate hit in terms the trains cancelled in an already ropey service in the first place, such as the Whitby and Heart of Wales. (This was a subject you brought up many months ago.)

Even the better served minor routes, such as the Cumbrian Coast and S&C, seem to struggle to recover numbers, with the 'important' stations (relatively speaking) on these routes especially hit badly.

Sellafield appears to be a very horrible example of this - entry-exits at 137,000 vs 260,000 pre-Covid. That is just 53% of the earlier usage. I suspect many workers just gave up on rail and found alternative transport. And they will be very difficult to lure back onto the train.

 

[yorksrob]

I haven't looked at the Borders' Line figures, but what does appear to be significant is the poor recovery on tertiary lines, lines which have tended to have a disproportionate hit in terms the trains cancelled in an already ropey service in the first place, such as the Whitby and Heart of Wales. (This was a subject you brought up many months ago.)

Even the better served minor routes, such as the Cumbrian Coast and S&C, seem to struggle to recover numbers, with the 'important' stations (relatively speaking) on these routes especially hit badly.

Sellafield appears to be a very horrible example of this - entry-exits at 137,000 vs 260,000 pre-Covid. That is just 53% of the earlier usage. I suspect many workers just gave up on rail and found alternative transport. And they will be very difficult to lure back onto the train.

I think that what's needed is a period of stability, so that passengers get used to trains running properly. On the tertiary lines, if a train is cancelled, you can be stuck for an hour or more. To be fair to Northern, on normal days, the S&C and Little North Western tend to be quite reliable. However, this may have been counteracted by them getting the chop every time there's industrial action.

It's not just the tertiary lines either. A group of us were planning to attend a footbal match yesterday which would have required travel on the West Coast main line. In the end, successive services northwards were shown as cancelled in the evening and only two out of the group of six ended up travelling. Never did get to the bottom of why there were so many cancellations.

Unfortunately, the railway has a reputation for unreliability now.

 

[12C]

Sellafield appears to be a very horrible example of this - entry-exits at 137,000 vs 260,000 pre-Covid. That is just 53% of the earlier usage. I suspect many workers just gave up on rail and found alternative transport. And they will be very difficult to lure back onto the train.

Rather than alternative transport (the local roads are awful, especially from South Cumbria), I think this is the effect of working from home/hybrid working in place at Sellafield now. I have a couple of friends in office based roles there who used to travel every day, and now make only a once a week visit to site.

 

[railfan99]

Wonder why St Ives is showing as zero full fare entries and exits (as do all the other branch line stations) ??

Yes, Newquay is identical. Why?

 

[dk1]

Even the better served minor routes, such as the Cumbrian Coast and S&C, seem to struggle to recover numbers, with the 'important' stations (relatively speaking) on these routes especially hit badly.

Compare that with the Bittern Line from Norwich to Sheringham where almost all stations are above pre-pandemic usage with many achieving that last year. Just shows what a reliable service can do.

 

[Goldfish62]

Compare that with the Bittern Line from Norwich to Sheringham where almost all stations are above pre-pandemic usage with many achieving that last year. Just shows what a reliable service can do.

Greater Anglia has been transformed with a reliable service and really nice new trains. Long may it last!