Ordsall Chord

[WatcherZero]

An additional/new airport service is a Blackburn/Burnley aspiration.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Or use the extra bays they should build where exchange was...?

I think that the Ask Developments project..The Exchange,Greengate...that will be built on this site, will rule out this option. I have a feeling that Network Rail have some land interest in this project, which is to be part of the regeneration of the area that surrounds Manchester Victoria station, which will also include the proposed Fishdock development of the car parks on the Corporation Street side of the station which show the construction of two office building complexes that will provide 500,000 square feet of commercial space.
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An additional/new airport service is a Blackburn/Burnley aspiration.

The thing about aspirations is they have no specific time period. Which route would this take, considering that the Todmorden Chord project has now been granted the approval of finance from the bid proposal, that also includes finance for work on the Weavers Triangle at Burnley. I am thinking of the time when the Ordsall Chord is fully operational, as a possible route.

The Sough Tunnel and the associated single line section on that line are two problems on the line between Bolton and Blackburn that require resolution, as at present, it does not take much to disrupt service running due to the long single track section, as I have found out to my cost over recent months, whereas extra services along this section will only exacerbate the problems until the required double trackwork and tunnel infrastructural work is carried out.

 

[WatcherZero]

Yes it is reliant on Ordsall Chord completion and the competition for paths along it, I would have thought the most economic would be to extend a single one of the twice hourly Pic-Airport shuttle service. Ones a stopper and ones an express and I would suggest the express would be the most suitable, of course it would require a lot of extra stock (but it would no longer have to turn on platform 14?).

 

[Invincibles]

Yes, but in it's current layout, anything over 4 car operation and it falls on it's ... well you can guess.

And Blackburn could have a direct airport via the Todmorden curve and Ordstall Cord?

I thought 2,3 and 4 could handle 6 car trains?

I assume 1 only needs slight extension for the track to handle 6 car, even if the platform of course would not.

I am not actually sure I buy into the assumption that every train needs to actually stop to set down/pick up at Oxford Road anyway.

For example train A could pull into platform 2 at Oxford Road and then the Airport to Scotland (now 8 car or whatever) can run through 1 and continue on its journey. Train C can follow that by one path and pull into platform 1 to stop and Train A can continue behind the fast (just obviously having had a longer layover in Oxford Road than it might otherwise)

I am really not sure that there is as much of a constraint on movements as might be suggested in this section.

 

[Nym]

I think that the Ask Developments project..The Exchange,Greengate...that will be built on this site, will rule out this option. I have a feeling that Network Rail have some land interest in this project, which is to be part of the regeneration of the area that surrounds Manchester Victoria station, which will also include the proposed Fishdock development of the car parks on the Corporation Street side of the station which show the construction of two office building complexes that will provide 500,000 square feet of commercial space.

Yep, just what we need in Manchester with miles and miles of unused office and commercial space, more office and commercial space!

For those who don't know where this space is... Look around...

Saint Peter's Square, Oldham St Bus Station, Piccadilly Basin, etc.

Theres plenty of space for businesses without taking up perfectly good platform space.

Not to mention the swathes of empty land around Central Manchester also up for grabs, surface car parks around Regent Road and wasteland in so many places I've lost count..

I thought 2,3 and 4 could handle 6 car trains?

They can, but the block eachother...

If there is a 6 car train in 4, nothing can leave 3, and vice versa, and if there is a 6 car train in 2, nothing can enter 1.

There is a way to modify this to provide conflict free access in all directions to all platforms and confilct free termination in 2/3 and extend 1/4 to 8x23m, (for TPE etc.) this would chop 2/3 down to 4x23m and cut off Pt5 but it could be done, the other part of that development would be platforms for metrolink where 5/6 currently sit, with a new open viaduct to Deansgate G Mex to meet up with the lines there, and Oxford Road would be used for Tram-Train services to Alty and anywhere else they cared to open, and any other shuttles that can't fit through the city, eg. MediaCity UK.

And if you've ever seen the amount of passengers, including long distance ones, getting off at Oxford Road, this is sometimes more than at Piccadilly 13/14, you'd know it is needed...

 

[YorkshireBear]

Yep, just what we need in Manchester with miles and miles of unused office and commercial space, more office and commercial space!

For those who don't know where this space is... Look around...

Saint Peter's Square, Oldham St Bus Station, Piccadilly Basin, etc.

Theres plenty of space for businesses without taking up perfectly good platform space.

Not to mention the swathes of empty land around Central Manchester also up for grabs, surface car parks around Regent Road and wasteland in so many places I've lost count..

That annoys me about leeds too, section inside the curves just a car park that can be moved and an empty office... :/ Perfect place to extend leeds station.


In terms of burnley and blackburn having a service to the airport, i think they should, its certainly a lot more useful than for example middlsbrough having one.

 

[northwichcat]

ISTR it's planned to be a train every fifteen minutes, presumably all from the same platform, which isn't too long to wait (bearing in mind that if you miss an Airport train at 13/14 at Piccadilly then you usually need to drag your cases into the "main" platforms for the next train...)

It's supposed to be two Leeds-Huddersfield-Victoria services that'll continue to the Airport, which would presumably be half an hour apart from each other. Also two Leeds-Bradford-Victoria services. Given that Leeds-Bradford-Victoria is every 20 minutes I can see the Airport services from Victoria running to a timetable like: xx:00, xx:20, xx:30 and xx:40 opposed to a clock face every 15 minutes. It will still take longer than changing at Piccadilly, which is closer to the Airport and will have around 8 Airport services.

Run it into Newton Heath?

There used to be through services from Leeds to Chester (pre privatisation) that ran coast to coast, before "Transpennine" became a "core" network of services.

Both controversial.

ATW running in to a Northern depot wouldn't go down well. ATW and FNW used to have a good relationship about using each others depots and shunting each others units around at Chester. Northern came in and that good relationship ended and one day it led to a cancelled peak time service at Chester just because they wouldn't work together in moving a broken down train.

Extending the Hull train to Llandudno would seem to make sense and it would mean Warrington would retain direct Huddersfield and Leeds services after Liverpool to Scarborough is diverted, albeit from the other station in Warrington. However, the WAG aren't happy with English operators running the North Wales Coast services, which is why FNW lost them.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Yep, just what we need in Manchester with miles and miles of unused office and commercial space, more office and commercial space! Not to mention the swathes of empty land around Central Manchester also up for grabs, surface car parks around Regent Road and wasteland in so many places I've lost count..

But ask yourself who actually owns the land that is currently used for car parking on the site of the former Manchester Exchange station and the land that is occupied by rough surface car parks at Manchester Victoria station. Neither of these two sites has seen railway operation for very many years and are disgraceful blots on the landscape of this part of the Manchester/Salford border of the city centre. Whether you like it or not, if you compare the approaches to Manchester by rail in this area, you will see the new large blocks development of the derelict land that runs along the former Red Bank viaduct and can see the new development on the land that has been totally unused (since Baxendale & Company left the area) opposite to the CIS building on Millar Street. There were more new developments in that area on the former Wholesale Fruit Market and the Wholesale Fish Market in the Withy Grove area, together with the new Shudehill bus station and Metrolink station.

Can you not agree that all this area of total dereliction was a total disgrace and a very poor reflection on the City of Manchester which has been greatly enhanced by all these new developments. It is surely better to have these new developments rather than what was there before, quietly decaying year upon year. The trouble is that the residents of Manchester have become inured to the very poor image of these areas and at least these areas are now becoming part of the new outer-city regeneration ring belt, of which even the areas of East Manchester which had lost out from the demise of steelmaking and heavy engineering, have now seen new developments such as the sports complexes that were a legacy of the Commonwealth Games in 2002 and the new home of Manchester City football club and other organisations. The East Manchester Metrolink line currently under construction to Droylsden and onwards to Ashton under Lyne, with its stops, will enhance the transport links to the city centre. Look at the site of former Miles Platting junction station (now razed to the ground) and the sites of the former stations onwards at Park, Clayton Bridge and the junction station that was Droylsden. All have not provided a rail service for commuters, heavy engineering workers, shoppers and leisure users for longer than most people can remember, even though the train to Ashton under Lyne and to Stalybridge passes the sites of these stations.

I might now live in a rather prestigious part of Cheshire East now, but I was brought up and raised in the very poor area where Oldham Road goods depot was situated and can remember what life was like in those areas over sixty years ago, when I first attended school there and no-one on this forum can claim to have a more detailed knowledge of what it was like to physically live in that area, within walking distance of Manchester Victoria station. For those interested in the history of that station, from the days when the directors of the Manchester and Leeds Railway were purchasing land for the proposed new station of Manchester Victoria, which included the workhouse and the burial ground, through its many stages of growth and its decline, will find the book "Manchester Victoria Station" by Tom Wray, an excellent publication.

 

[WatcherZero]

The development as far as Im aware is by Network Rail commercial arm and is renovating and adding a third storey to the former Manchester Exchange station building which is adjoining the viaduct. It shouldnt really prevent further development.

 

[snail]

Theres plenty of space for businesses without taking up perfectly good platform space.

No platform space will be harmed in the making of this development. The Exchange office block(s) are on the former approach to the station, which have been used as car parks for some considerable time. The old platform area is not affected but it's some way from Victoria. It may be possible to have exits near Exchange Approach but I think that's unlikely and defeats the object of allowing transfers to Airport services at Victoria.

Although the Exchange land is Network Rail owned it hasn't really got much connection with the Fishdock development as one is being promoted by Salford Council and the other is in the hands of Manchester (Exchange Station is/was on the Salford side of the Irwell).

 

[tbtc]

It's supposed to be two Leeds-Huddersfield-Victoria services that'll continue to the Airport, which would presumably be half an hour apart from each other. Also two Leeds-Bradford-Victoria services. Given that Leeds-Bradford-Victoria is every 20 minutes I can see the Airport services from Victoria running to a timetable like: xx:00, xx:20, xx:30 and xx:40 opposed to a clock face every 15 minutes. It will still take longer than changing at Piccadilly, which is closer to the Airport and will have around 8 Airport services

There are two trains an hour that do Leeds - Bradford - Manchester Victoria.

Current service through Bradford Interchange:

• Leeds - Bradford - Manchester Victoria (two/hour)
• Leeds - Bradford - Huddersfield - Wakefield (hourly)
• Leeds - Bradford - Burnley - Blackpool (hourly)

 

[northwichcat]

There are two trains an hour that do Leeds - Bradford - Manchester Victoria.

OK but on checking they still aren't clock face half-hourly due to different calling patterns and the Leeds-Dewsbury-Halifax-Victoria service fitting in.

 

[tbtc]

OK but on checking they still aren't clock face half-hourly due to different calling patterns and the Leeds-Dewsbury-Halifax-Victoria service fitting in.

Not at the moment, no, but its not exactly insurmountable (they were a straight half hourly service until fairly recently).

We are talking in a few years time, by when the service pattern may well have changed again (e.g. the Rochdale terminators may be extended to East Lancashire via the Todmorden Curve), but I think this is a fairly trivial issue in the grand scheme of the Ordsall Curve. If thats the biggest reason for the ATW Llandudno service not to use Victoria then I am comfortable with that.

 

[Nym]

No platform space will be harmed in the making of this development. The Exchange office block(s) are on the former approach to the station, which have been used as car parks for some considerable time. The old platform area is not affected but it's some way from Victoria. It may be possible to have exits near Exchange Approach but I think that's unlikely and defeats the object of allowing transfers to Airport services at Victoria.

Although the Exchange land is Network Rail owned it hasn't really got much connection with the Fishdock development as one is being promoted by Salford Council and the other is in the hands of Manchester (Exchange Station is/was on the Salford side of the Irwell).

Who knows then, maybe in the area of that development they could form the 2nd entrance to Victoria as that that accesses the 'Exchange Platform Area'

And tbh, it's not that far from the current platforms, no further than 13/14 at Piccadilly if you actually think about it.

 

[Bevan Price]

Having the Ardwick line change to only use Picc 1-3 makes so much sense, but is Air-Picc14-OxRd-OrdChord-Vic-Staly really going to be 15min quicker than Air-PiccBay-GuideBr-Staly? It would seem at best to take the same amount of time.

I wish they would address the peak overcrowding on the TPE route now, it seems blindingly obvious to re-form the 185s so that the busy routes can have 4-car units, and the 2-cars that get created can run services that split at York.

My understanding is that TPE would now not really want 4 car 185's, because all the depot facilities were designed for use with the 3 coach trains they had to accept, and it would be expensive to reconfigure the depots for longer trains (based on comments I heard during a visit to Ardwick depot a year or two ago.)

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The development as far as I'm aware is by Network Rail commercial arm and is renovating and adding a third storey to the former Manchester Exchange station building which is adjoining the viaduct. It shouldn't really prevent further development.

Isn't it wonderful when you can come to our forum and be told far more than Network Rail were prepared to tell you at the MOSI exhibition on The Ordsall Chord and associated Manchester Victoria station improvements.

 

[WatcherZero]

Well thats the development involving the viaduct structure, somewhere near one of the carparks, not sure exactly where.

The wider developments a fair bit larger.
http://www.greengateembankment.com/

 

[IanXC]

My understanding is that TPE would now not really want 4 car 185's, because all the depot facilities were designed for use with the 3 coach trains they had to accept, and it would be expensive to reconfigure the depots for longer trains (based on comments I heard during a visit to Ardwick depot a year or two ago.)

Whether that would be their official position is another matter, but 4th cars for the 185s must be fairly unlikely now. Given the depot facilities, platform lenghts and the 350s due. If further capacity is provided I'd suggest more 2 car 170s, enabling 4 car operation on currently crowded 3 car diagrams and 3 car 185s on currently crowded 2 car 170 diagrams.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Well thats the development involving the viaduct structure, somewhere near one of the car parks, not sure exactly where....The wider developments a fair bit larger.
http://www.greengateembankment.com/

It was the total development of the Ask Developments Greengate Embankment project that I was referring to in my earlier posting. I thought it was somewhat larger than just an extra storey upon the former Manchester Exchange station building. I have used the link that you have given, to register for future update information upon this project.

 

[swt_passenger]

Consultation page here:

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/north/Ordsall-Chord.aspx

Scroll right down and there's a link to a 'maps pack'.

There have been a good few ideas posted here in the past, do any of them match up what is planned?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Good to see some plans.
Maybe it's because it's for local consultation, but there is very little construction detail.
The only tangible morsel is that the MMSI line will have to be crossed at grade (with a fixed diamond?).
So is the whole layout going to be at grade (ie no flyovers)?
The throughput will be quite limited if so, hemmed in by the 3 flat double junctions at the corners of the Ordsall Lane triangle.
Also, it's no good expecting advance works during the current electrification project if we are years off planning permission for the new chord.
If the green areas on the maps are for (potential) compulsory purchase, what do they need the site of Manchester Exchange for, plus large areas of land north of the Ordsall Lane-Salford Central route?

A speed limit of 25/35mph is not too exciting either, but is no doubt imposed by the curvature.
I think I imagined a more dramatic grade-separated sweep away from the current route and then over it.

 

[northwichcat]

Date seems to have been put back again. Now a vague 2017 - no specific month.

 

[John55]

Consultation page here:

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/north/Ordsall-Chord.aspx

Scroll right down and there's a link to a 'maps pack'.

There have been a good few ideas posted here in the past, do any of them match up what is planned?

The maps are 15 months old. Is this info any different from that released for the first stage consultation last year?

 

[telstarbox]

I might pop along to one of the consultations as I'm in the area.

 

[Viscount702]

The only thing new on the website is the second community consultation paper, the rest is from the first consultation.

All the new stuff should go on the website sometime next week according to NR.

I also think everything namely Victoria, the Chord and the Hub are running at least six months or more behind what was originally given as completed dates if there were any in the first place.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I can only hope that there may be more technical staff in attendance at these series of exhibitions, as the Network Rail staff in attendance at the first set of exhibitions in 2011 were not the type that many expected to be in attendance to answer detailed technical queries.

 

[Viscount702]

There is a little more information now showing on the link below

http://www.networkrailmediacentre.c...ult-on-plans-to-improve-Manchester-s-railways

 

[Joseph_Locke]

I can only hope that there may be more technical staff in attendance at these series of exhibitions, as the Network Rail staff in attendance at the first set of exhibitions in 2011 were not the type that many expected to be in attendance to answer detailed technical queries.

<usual disclaimer about involvement, as in I am in a related scheme, but not this one exactly>

To be fair to them, the last public exhibitions didn't have that much to show really, as NR had only just got to a single option (very sort of in the case of the Chord). NR therefore fielded salesmen rather than detailed designers.

This particular project isn't the most straightforward one in the world, and it has taken a while to resolve all the differing constraints (including English Heritage). To the lay observer it will look very similar to previous proposals, but it isn't, and a lot more detailed analysis has been undertaken to make it work as a single design.

 

[dggar]

Image from Rail.co

http://www.rail.co/2012/11/13/consultation-series-to-consider-ordsall-chord-project/

 

[table38]

There are a couple of bridge designs, the second one is the second slide-show image at http://menmedia.co.uk/manchestereveningnews/news/s/1593746_irwell-bridge-plan-to-link-piccadilly-and-victoria-rail-stations

Two designs for the bridge have been published – and rail bosses want the public to help them choose between them.