Ordsall Chord

[dggar]

My own thoughts after seeing the display at MOSI.

In order to avoid congestion there will need to be four running lines between Castlefield
(where the route crosses the river Irwell) and Piccadilly.

From the West of Deansgate Station a second pair of tracks should be placed parallel to
the existing tracks on the North side. An additional underpass will be required to go under
the Metro Link tracks.
(Shown in Blue on the Google Map Image.)

When this second pair of tracks emerges from the this underpass it should maintain its elevation
so that clearance is gained (say 8 meters) to fly over the present tracks
where they cross Water Street and the river Irwell.

The new tracks maintain their height to cross over the lines to Eccles and then descend to run
through the disused platforms at Salford Central station and on to Manchester Victoria.

 

[185]

Just a thought. Does anyone have any questions (not asked) they would like me to put to two Network Rail senior project / communications managers up from London that I'm lumbered to work with for the next 13 days?

For once, I'm actually being serious here folks.

 

[Nym]

Why don't you send someone who knows something about the project to a project consultation?

Seriously I was asking pretty basic questions about the Northern Hub and the guy didn't know the answers!

With regards to this thread specifically, are we going to get grade separation and if not, what idiot thinks they can push 36tph through a flat junction area with no headways between them?

 

[185]

Those two only arrived in Manchester today. The public consultation is just window dressing (allegedly). I gather they are here to have a smug-in with the politicians and PTE.

I may be speculating, but my guess is:

 

[Nym]

Yeah, for the cord myself that was my guess as to what was going to be happening, but I'd quite like to see the Vic - Chat Moss route grade seperated, using new track over the Eastern end of the N/S Viaduct to climb, cross over Ordstall Lane Junc wholesale on a pre-tensioned concrete bridge, then fall on viaducts again to the South of Ordstall Lane Junction, with the curve proceeding under this into the 'current' alignment of the Vic - Ord Ln - Chat Moss lines.

 

[185]

It would be ideal but it's all down to cost, and at present everything has to be justified as totally essential.

 

[Nym]

OK, do I need to point at Lofthouse Interchange again?

You're looking at having one line diverge, another line diverge that needs to cross a line that joins, then another line diverge again, and all of this needs to potentially handle upto 20tph in each direction. Forgive me for thinking that this needs grade separation, but without total homogenous high performance stock it's damn near impossible, Thameslink is going to run at 24tph without any junctions this complex and they get grade separation.

It would only cost an extra £20m or so to do it now, while it's closed anyway, remember that you can build pretty substantial embankments round here without much hassle at all the northern end would need a brick faccade but the southern end at Ordstall Lane can be pre-cast concrete, and a prasmatic linear simply supported steel/concrete bridge isn't THAT expensive.

The alternative would mean that the Vic - Chat Moss flow would sit independent of the main junction (and this would be the busiest flow) so you're left with one line splitting off into four (I'm including Castleford Junction because of proximity). Still not ideal, but a damn sight better than before.

Realistically then you can see it handle 14 or even 16tph off Oxford Road, up to 4tph each. 4tph CLC, 4tph Chat Moss, 4tph Windsor Link and 4tph Victoria

Closing a line to put one in later on the other hand, when service levels are already higher, IS expensive.

Just look at Lofthouse interchange, they didn't build it properly in the first place, have just had to spend £270mil improving it, and it still wasn't right, so now the're spending even more putting in Active Traffic Management and changing all the approaches from the West.

There is also some rough provision with that layout as described for further grade separation to be added later, but this would be new viaduct and expensive, as it would have to avoid a lot of historical monuments. Hence why I'd choose Vic - Chat Moss as the grade separated route, quite aside from I can easily see this route seeing 6tph passenger and 2tph freight services, just off Victoria.

2tph Wigan
2tph Liverpool Fast
1tph Liverpool Slow
1tph Chester via Warrington BQ

Theres also potentially even more than this off Victoria, so you could end up with, through the Castleford / Ordstall Lane Junction group anything up to 22, 24 or even 26tph + freight... Nooo, we don't need it grade separating at all!

 

[185]

Unfortunately, remembering the (backward) way things are built in this country, it would only be likely that the core project (the viaduct curve) would initially be built. Then, (OMGZ!!!) once there is pathing chaos when it opens, there is (only then) a proven case to enable funding to be secured for more building work. And then we wait another 5 years while the required grade seperation & bypass projects are constructed.

I would suggest the priority seperated route should be Deansgate-Chat Moss, but the infrastructure to allow that would be too expensive, so I agree Vic-Chat Moss would be the next suitable alternative. That would create an ideal opportunity to relay the middle road at Salford Central, and kick start an all 3 lines open-all 6 platforms open at that much neglected but useful station.

 

[Nym]

Well why don't they try doing some computer modelling of the situation, christ knows I could write the software to do it myself in a few days if I had nothing else to do, and model, properly, what it will be like to run. If the computer falls over and says it won't work for pathing, then it definitely won't work IRL and we have a business case right there out of the bag.

PS: Salford Central only ever had four platforms...

But the idea of having Chat Moss Vic on the southern most pair with 6 tracks into vic means that terminating platforms can be built for it on the Exchange side of Victoria and Chat Moss services can terminate without knackering up the rest of Victoria (like they do currently). They would then sit independant of the rest of Victoria. and work quite nicely IMO, at the Western end of Platform 3 with some much better lighting and signage, possibly a 2nd entrance, you could slam in 4 nice long platforms and have everything terminate there from the Chat Moss, stuff from Salford can run through to Stalybrige and Rochdale, then woohoo we don't have anything terminating at Victoria from the West any more.

 

[185]

PS: Salford Central only ever had four platforms...

Was reading up on that some time ago, but the middle roads could certainly handle an (albeit narrow) pair of platforms. At present Central seems to be a fantastic front to an awful back. There's just so much scope for growth.

 

[Nym]

Yep, could be a very nice interchange, but they'll cheap out and get the usual knowing TfGM, if it doesn't involve a tram the're not intrested.

 

[WatcherZero]

Nothing to do with them really, their job is to provide services where there is an unsatisfied need and speed up disabled access provision. Rail capacity, improvements and expansion is a NR/Dft responsibility. Where they fund lengthening of services its usually as a last resort because the Dft didnt, for example the Oldham Five. There are a few exceptions, notably Victoria Station roof, but thats because the agreement they signed to use the platforms for trams stipulated that they would be liable for some of the cost of replacing the roof. The minor scheme improvements at stations comes from a fund setup by the Government just for that where the PTE funds are match funded by the Franchisee running the station.

 

[snail]

Yeah, for the cord myself that was my guess as to what was going to be happening, but I'd quite like to see the Vic - Chat Moss route grade seperated, using new track over the Eastern end of the N/S Viaduct to climb, cross over Ordstall Lane Junc wholesale on a pre-tensioned concrete bridge, then fall on viaducts again to the South of Ordstall Lane Junction, with the curve proceeding under this into the 'current' alignment of the Vic - Ord Ln - Chat Moss lines.

That's mentioned in either the RUS or Northern Hub proposals as a possibility for the future. One thing at a time I think, NR have done well to get the money for this stage. Planning and building of the sort of thing you are suggesting would take much longer to achieve and not be ready in time to slot in with the wider proposals.

PS It's not 'Ordstall' and it isn't a 'cord'. See thread title...

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The minor scheme improvements at stations comes from a fund setup by the Government just for that where the PTE funds are match funded by the Franchisee running the station.

Have there been many instancies of this type of match funding over the last decade?

 

[WatcherZero]

Yes, was a franchise requirement in earlier rounds that the Franchises had to create a grant scheme for minor station improvements that PTE's/Station user groups/County councils? could apply for. Its a few tens of millions annually with schemes usually in the £50k-£2m range. Mainly things like cosmetic improvements, disabled access, waiting room renovations, toilets, benches, flowers, etc..

 

[CosherB]

Any more news yet on how this now approved chord is going to be implemented? Will it be the end of the MoSI railway when it's built (it will be if it is implemented in its simplest form - just a curved link between the two lines)?

 

[John55]

"Any more news yet on how this now approved chord is going to be implemented? Will it be the end of the MoSI railway when it's built (it will be if it is implemented in its simplest form - just a curved link between the two lines)?"


In post 39 of this thread I gave the web page on the NR website for this project. On that page it says consultation on the detailed design will be in spring/summer 2012. The drawing packs listed on this page also show the proposed route in enough detail to answer your question. I suggest you keep an eye on this page as it is updated reasonably frequently.

However note the planning process seems to have 3 years to go so don't expect anything to happen any time soon.

 

[newbie babs]

I was at Sheffield Station on Friday and there was an information desk with brochures on the Network Rail plans for the Ordsall Chord, Manchester Victoria, Northern Hub,and Plans for the future of rain in the north.

I am going to scan them at work tomorrow so if any one wants a copy let me know.

It gives the timescale for Victoria (new plans for the roof and the refurbishment) and the Ordsall Chord. It also gives you a survey to fill in an send back. T

Looks interesting so going to have a read and will report back.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Northern Hub PDF's on the right here:

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/aspx/6474.aspx

 

[yorksrob]

That's very interesting.

I was aware of the potential new track through Standedge, but I wasn't aware of plans for additional tracking between Manchester-Liverpool and Manchester-Sheffield !

I also see they're planning for an extra train an hour between Manchester and Chester, which I hadn't been aware of.

 

[tbtc]

I was aware of the potential new track through Standedge, but I wasn't aware of plans for additional tracking between Manchester-Liverpool and Manchester-Sheffield !

The chord at Dore is finally being sorted out, plus a passing loop at Grindleford (for freight to be overtaken).

It'll help, but its not going to bankrupt the country.

 

[Meridian richard]

I was at Sheffield Station on Friday and there was an information desk with brochures on the Network Rail plans for the Ordsall Chord, Manchester Victoria, Northern Hub,and Plans for the future of rain in the north.

I am going to scan them at work tomorrow so if any one wants a copy let me know.

It gives the timescale for Victoria (new plans for the roof and the refurbishment) and the Ordsall Chord. It also gives you a survey to fill in an send back. T

Looks interesting so going to have a read and will report back.

They were at Meadowhall yesterday. Got given a brochure

 

[yorksrob]

The chord at Dore is finally being sorted out, plus a passing loop at Grindleford (for freight to be overtaken).

It'll help, but its not going to bankrupt the country.

Cheers for the info. Let's hope they get built.

 

[callum112233]

I was at Sheffield Station on Friday and there was an information desk with brochures on the Network Rail plans for the Ordsall Chord, Manchester Victoria, Northern Hub,and Plans for the future of rain in the north.

I am going to scan them at work tomorrow so if any one wants a copy let me know.

It gives the timescale for Victoria (new plans for the roof and the refurbishment) and the Ordsall Chord. It also gives you a survey to fill in an send back. T

Looks interesting so going to have a read and will report back.

I would't mind a look at an Ordsall Chord brochure if it's not too much trouble :P

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Having looked through the PDF on the NR site, I can say that I was given one of them in paper on Piccadilly station during my work experience in March / April 2010!

Within the PDF below is all the info on the Northern Hub / Ordsall Chord / Northern England improvements.

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/docume...hern Hub - Transforming rail in the North.pdf

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I was at Sheffield Station on Friday and there was an information desk with brochures on the Network Rail plans for the Ordsall Chord, Manchester Victoria, Northern Hub and Plans for the future of rain in the North.

Were these the A5 sized leaflets that were all contained in a National Rail printed cardboard holder called "Our plan for the future is under way") ?

Incidentally, I did not know that National Rail had gone into weather forecating, as stated in the "rainfall" planning above, but come to think of it, they could not make a worse job of it than the existing organisation:roll:

 

[rebmcr]

Having the Ardwick line change to only use Picc 1-3 makes so much sense, but is Air-Picc14-OxRd-OrdChord-Vic-Staly really going to be 15min quicker than Air-PiccBay-GuideBr-Staly? It would seem at best to take the same amount of time.

I wish they would address the peak overcrowding on the TPE route now, it seems blindingly obvious to re-form the 185s so that the busy routes can have 4-car units, and the 2-cars that get created can run services that split at York.

 

[northwichcat]

and the 2-cars that get created can run services that split at York.

You do realise that'll create a 2 car unit with around 85 seats in total and 15 of those will be first class.

 

[ukrob]

If it was possible to start with.

You can't just 'reform' DMU's such as 185's.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Having the Ardwick line change to only use Picc 1-3 makes so much sense, but is Air-Picc14-OxRd-OrdChord-Vic-Staly really going to be 15min quicker than Air-PiccBay-GuideBr-Staly? It would seem at best to take the same amount of time.

The matter that you have to bear in mind is the service expansion of Manchester Victoria proposed by the implications of the Ordsall Chord. It is not just a time comparison between the two routes that you have stated.