aimed mostly at nym (i like your detailed posts)
how will picc plat 13-16 be used?
a. single direction lines to oxford road...
13/14 - up
15-16 - down
b. bi-directional
13/14 - stockport/east
15/16 - style line/airport
c. both uses?
will the new platforms be as long as 13/14 or of a shorter length?
will 13/14 be officially split into a and b platforms? or will we see less trains sharing platforms 13/14?
will access to 12 be improved if stops were frthur rearward of 13?
where will the crossings be made? on the viaduct/picc main appoach/oxford road?
how will electrification affect future potential 6 tracing between salford(6 platforms?) and victoria?
if 2 bays are added to the west of victoria will there be an additional main entrance of will it be a long trek through the station to access these?
any other thoughts ...?
Why me? (I'll take it as a compliment)
Sense dictates, although don't hold me to this happening...
13 - 16 will be paired by direction, have seen this mentioned in several documents ie. 13/14 for Airport and Stockport (Not Leeds / Guide Bridge), and 15/16 for Oxford Road. Mainly due to the slows not seperating until Slade Lane Jcn south of Longsight, preventing crossing paths twice. Even if an extra two tracks are added the crossing movments should still happen SE of piccadilly where there is a lot more space.
Chances are that 15/16 will be shorter than 13/14, simply because the're on the inside of the curve, but I would still expect them to be quite long.
Ideally there should be no crossings on the Oxford Road Viaduct (What lies between Ordstall Lane and the old Piccadilly PSB. With 16tph + freight using it there just isn't space.
You could 6 or 8 track the approaches to Victoria, from the west, but unless additional platforms are provided theres no point as you're still limited to two two track through platforms.
Additional platforms at the end of Platform 3 would be the most sensible option, if combined with the grade seperation of Ordstall Lane Jcn as I have previously discribed, the terminating platforms could be used for all services off the Chat Moss that are terminating without crossing any paths at the Victoria approaches. Including the Cord - Vic lines.
If 8 track was provided (in places) where Salford Central had 4 platforms, all serving the line to Windsor Bridge Junction (I'll get to that in a moment), 2 through lines from the cord next, and the Chat Moss lines most southerly.
1/2 at Central used for Vic Bound services, 1 arriving 1 leaving etc. 3/4 Windsor Br Jcn bound services. roads (no platforms 5 and 6 for cord) and 7 and 8 for Chat Moss)
To the East of Salford Central this could drop to 6 track, with staggered 2 track ladders, ie.
1/2 combine & spare onto 5, 3/4 combine & spare onto 6, 7/8 points onto 5/6 and continue, 5/6 points onto 1/2 and continue, 7/8 points onto 5/6 and continue. Then from after this junctioning is finished, some scissor crossovers on each approach 1/2 run into Platforms 6 and 5, 5/6 run into platforms 4/3 and 7/8 run into some new bay platforms on the old Exchange campus, accessed by foot via Platform 3 in Victoria, and via a new satellite ticket office on the approach from Deansgate, improvments to overbridge to allow access to each platform without having to stumble upon couples 'in the mood'.
Passive provision added at layout for additional tracks from 1/2/3/4 to terminate services in bays to the North, but there isn't much space for them and the up to 10tph from Windsor Bridge can all be pushed through, either to a virtual station near the Metrolink Depot, or as continuations of the Calder Valley services (you'll notice I'm trying to minimise crossing movments and improve segregation) basically, if you want to go to Bolton, chances are you need to be on Platform 5.
TPE would run in from Stalybridge very nicely, cross nothing on it's way through. Liverpool services would pull left on exit onto the ex bay lines for liverpool, curve services would stay on their line.
Realistically, through services on the 'southern' platforms would be 8tph, and on the northern platforms, initially 8tph, that should cope fine.
To the west...
5/6 (6tph initially) handling the 4tph to Bolton, 2tph to Atherton and 2tph spare. (Taking 2tph off the Calder Valey lines to send on to somwhere, proberbly Wigan via Bolton, remaning services continue onwards either to Rochdale, Stalybridge, or new centre road sidings) This may increase to more tph from Bolton or Atherton if services are cut via Oxford Road. Or the stopper is broken free of the normal timetable and run as an additional terminating Bolton, hence allowing upto 10tph, 2tph extra for Bolton and 2tph for Leigh.
3/4 (6tph+) handling the 4tph TPE (Or 6tph if that happens, although the additional 2tph may be sent via Guide Bridge) 1tph Northern from Calder Vale, then there are the additional services that might want to be pushed through the cord, or through Victoria to free space at Piccadilly.
Liverpool - Norwich, Cleethorpes - Airport, etc.
Services from Liverpool and Wigan via Chat Moss will all terminate in the new platforms, and won't cross anything on their way in/out of Victoria, so 4 - 6tph on 4 platforms is a realistic level of service. Liverpool - Stalybridge cut to Victoria, as Windsor Bridge services will be sent through that way.
If you don't have the bays, all these extra tracks make no sense as theres nowhere to send them, with the extra 'Exchange Station Bays' theres a lot of scope added to take services away from Piccadilly as well, such as Lllandudno, Chester, etc, running into the additional bays at Victoria.
Running all services through would be nice, but when you're faced with trying to fit 10tph through each pair of platforms, thats the upper limit, something needs to run into bays, and when it's somewhere like Victoria, where one side will see between 8 and 11tph and the other will see upto 24tph, you can't simply run everything through.
Oh, and if there isn't grade separation at Ordstall Lane you can kiss reliable journeys good bye anyway, it's needed.
Chat Moss has a lot of potential for services, and it should be exploited as much as possible, as should Victoria, routes to divert from Stockport to Victoria should be electrified when mainlines are completed, and personally, there are a couple of routes I'd like to see open again that would also mean more being able to see Victoria, this time the other side, such as Rose Hill - Macclesfeild, and electrified, nice diversionary route away from a congested line there. But thats another matter.
The cord using services were planned to be 2tph Leeds, 1tph Calder Valley 1tph Cleethorpes. The latter might not happen, as IMO Cleethorpes should be extended over the CLC semi fast instead of the Airport, make up for the loss of the Fast TPE from Leeds.
Plenty of North TPE services are 6 car as it is. Off the top of my head I can't think of anywhere where 8 car would be a problem, but I'm sure someone will be along with somewhere soon!
Shortly to become the centre of most TPE services, Manchester Oxford Road...
Limited to 6 car and very very very very expensive to extend to 8 car, can be done, but would be in the region of £150mil to do it.
In the end of all this anyway, I know it may seem like an over provision of space at Victoria, but theres a damn good reason for that, everything needs to arrive bang on time for the Oxford Road corridor to be able to run at 16tph + Freight, things can't be waiting for platforms at Victoria or pathed in a way to wait for them, hence the extra platforms at Salford Central, it needs to run through Windsor Bridge Jcn or Ordstall Lane Jcn and get out of the way!
And what happens when demand sky rockets, Leigh gets a railway, and a massive P&R opens near Lowton, there will be space for all these services at the expanded Victoria with massive approaches. Since 4tph on other routes will make Piccadilly - Deansgate full.
2F 2S CLC
1 Scotland, 1 Chester, 1 Liverpool F Chat Moss
1 Lanc, 1 Blackpool, 1 Preston Windsor Br
4 to Victoria.
That makes 14tph, with cuts to services. Would mean diverting the Southport service into Victoria, hence Wigan loosing it's Manchester Airport link. (Unless you send Barrow & Windermere 1tph via Wigan, wouldn't be a totally stupid idea)
PS: Piccadilly has a little bit more slack on when services arrive thanks to two full length platforms, and longer approaches to get things in order, Ordstall Lane & Castlefeild Jcn aren't afforded that luxary
