Ordsall Chord

[WatcherZero]

It doesn't require the existing line being moved but the new chord would plow straight through potential development land causing much to be lost and splitting the rest in two.

 

[Geeves]

They are already really cracking on with the various signalling works at both Castlefield and around Deal St. Lots and lots of expensive relay cabins, new wire runs, gantries and various other bits are already there. I cant see it not going ahead now no way.

 

[Rail Ranger]

Watcher,

Whitby's plan (Option 15) would entail the present line between Salford Central and Ordsall Lane Junction being taken out of use and replaced by a new alignment further to the north/west. As you say his option would divide the Middlewood Locks site in two. And by the way in Britain we spell the word "plough".

 

[Dunc108]

They are already really cracking on with the various signalling works at both Castlefield and around Deal St. Lots and lots of expensive relay cabins, new wire runs, gantries and various other bits are already there. I cant see it not going ahead now no way.

Are they still adding extra platforms at Salford Central, guess they'll be needing that extra capacity before long!

 

[snail]

Having had a look at the plans for the chosen route and Mr. Whitby's plan doesn't Mr Whitby's plan mean that the current Chat Moss line having to be moved slightly North Westish. onto land that has been given the go ahead to build Middlewood Locks residential and commercial development which the Chinese are investing in heavily.

No, that's right and was one of the reasons given in the inspector's report. Salford Council were very much against the idea of splitting up the Middlewood Locks development.

 

[snowball]

Are they still adding extra platforms at Salford Central, guess they'll be needing that extra capacity before long!

Yes, it's separately funded from the Chord (comes via Transport for Greater Manchester) but will be built at the same time.

 

[geoffk]

will one of the extra platforms at Salford Central be used for terminating trains coming from east of Victoria (e.g. from Leeds), in the same way that the new bay at Rochdale will be used for trains coming from the west?

 

[edwin_m]

will one of the extra platforms at Salford Central be used for terminating trains coming from east of Victoria (e.g. from Leeds), in the same way that the new bay at Rochdale will be used for trains coming from the west?

No, all five will be through platforms, the fifth one being provided because the junction layout with the Ordsall Chord has separate tracks here for the two routes in one direction only. The future service pattern isn't certain but it is likely nearly all services at Victoria and Salford Central will run through between destinations east of Manchester and either destinations west of Manchester or the Airport.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

will one of the extra platforms at Salford Central be used for terminating trains coming from east of Victoria (e.g. from Leeds), in the same way that the new bay at Rochdale will be used for trains coming from the west?

No, all five will be through platforms, the fifth one being provided because the junction layout with the Ordsall Chord has separate tracks here for the two routes in one direction only. The future service pattern isn't certain but it is likely nearly all services at Victoria and Salford Central will run through between destinations east of Manchester and either destinations west of Manchester or the Airport.

Victoria is less of a problem for trains terminating from the East anyway, as there are still two East facing bays.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Yes, it's separately funded from the Chord (comes via Transport for Greater Manchester) but will be built at the same time.

This, of course, raises the question to be considered, if ever needed to be, that the land in the Middlewood Locks residential and commercial project is a totally separate entity, under a different management aegis, to that of the railway project that is the Ordsall Chord.

 

[lejog]

Watcher,

Whitby's plan (Option 15) would entail the present line between Salford Central and Ordsall Lane Junction being taken out of use and replaced by a new alignment further to the north/west. As you say his option would divide the Middlewood Locks site in two.

If you look at the diagram I posted in #709, not only would it actually split the Middlewood Locks development into 3, but also would plough straight through a 32 storey tower block and twin 25 storey tower blocks, planning permission for which have been granted.

And by the way in Britain we spell the word "plough".

Except of course when we don't change the dictionary used by our spell check/ autocorrect function to British English.

 

[snail]

Thanks for providing the case tracker link. I typed in Whitby and there are 2 cases "The Queen on the application of Whitby v The Secretary of State for Transport" and case type is 'permission to appeal'.

I just looked these up and they have been both updated today with the same information:

Current Status: Awaiting a Judicial decision on the papers

Tracking Information:
30-Nov-15: Application referred to Lord/Lady Justice

 

[kevconnor]

The follow is from law firm Richard Buxton website and gives a good overview of the appeals process currently being undertaken

Appeals process

We have several tiers to our legal system. Most of our cases start off in the Administrative Court, which is a branch of the High Court. The appeal route from there is to the Court of Appeal and thence to the Supreme Court.

Court of Appeal
In most cases permission to appeal to the Court of Appeal is required. The lower court may grant permission, but this is unusual as it is a way of saying that the judge accepts the decision may not be right. More often, permission is refused and one has to apply for permission from the Court of Appeal itself. It is vital to initiate this process quickly. One has to lodge an "Appellant's Notice" within 21 days of the decision to be appealed along with grounds of appeal. This is relatively easy to do, as the information required is not great. Nevertheless, full documentation and a skeleton argument in support have to be provided shortly after that.

In cases where permission for judicial review is refused by the High Court, the Appellant's Notice must be lodged within one week (7 days).

Refused permission

A decision is made on paper by a Lord/Lady Justice of Appeal. If the decision is to refuse permission, one can renew the application to an oral hearing within 7 days of the order refusing permission. That will usually be before one, but sometimes two, Lord/Lady Justices. The other party or parties are not normally invited, but in practice they will often turn up to the hearing. They may still not be allowed to make representations or claim costs - the point is that the prospective appellant must show that the proposed appeal stands a realistic prospect of success.

If permission to appeal is refused at that stage, that is the end of the matter. One cannot take it further to the Supreme Court because you will have been refused twice - in the High Court and Court of Appeal.

In this sense the Court of Appeal is, therefore, a court of last instance and as a matter of law must refer points of European law that are not acte clair to the Court of Justice of the European Union. In practice in such cases the Lord/Lady Justice(s) hearing the application for permission will usually adjourn the matter to a full three person court for further consideration.

Source http://http://www.richardbuxton.co.uk/the-law/appeals-process

 

[absolutelymilk]

Any update on the appeal?

From Twitter, it looks like they are really cracking on with it, with traffic diversion etc. Guessing they are going to try and finish it as close to possible to the original completion date

 

[po8crg]

Unless there is an injunction staying execution (which I haven't noticed), the TWAO has actually been granted; the appeal of the JR does not prevent work taking place. If they were to lose on appeal, then NR would have to put things back as they were at their own cost, but I suspect their legal advisors are pretty confident at this point that Whitby is just trying to delay things.

 

[snowball]

Any update on the appeal?

Both cases say this:

Track Your Case:

Current Status: Awaiting a Judicial decision on the papers
Tracking Information:

30-Nov-15: Application referred to Lord/Lady Justice

From Twitter, it looks like they are really cracking on with it, with traffic diversion etc.

Where should I be looking on Twitter? It doesn't seem to be on Network Rail's Northern Programme feed. (I don't claim to understand Twitter and am not a registered user.)

Guessing they are going to try and finish it as close to possible to the original completion date

Which original do you mean? At the time of the public inquiry NR hoped for a decision in autumn 2014 for completion by December 2016. That's out of the question now. I think the current realistic aim is December 2017.

 

[absolutelymilk]

Both cases say this:

Thanks, hopefully they won't get anywhere!

Where should I be looking on Twitter? It doesn't seem to be on Network Rail's Northern Programme feed. (I don't claim to understand Twitter and am not a registered user.)

https://twitter.com/search?q=ordsall chord&src=typd&lang=en-gb
(Just search for "Ordsall Chord")

Which original do you mean? At the time of the public inquiry NR hoped for a decision in autumn 2014 for completion by December 2016. That's out of the question now. I think the current realistic aim is December 2017.

I meant Dec 2016, presumably with some of the preparatory works that they had been doing it might be finished sooner? Here's hoping anyway...

 

[snowball]

I think they would have needed to start about a year ago if it was going to be open for Dec 2016.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

I think the current realistic aim is December 2017.

That would tie-in with lead times for new the TPE stock. Gonna be some big changes over the next 5 years.

 

[snowball]

That would tie-in with lead times for new the TPE stock.

Also with the electrification of Manchester-Preston - maybe even Preston-Blackpool and Manchester-Stalybridge.

 

[po8crg]

That would mean opening after the completion of the Metrolink 2CC project, and therefore not filling trains with passengers avoiding tram works. That's probably a good thing; wild swings in usage from week to week depending on which tram routes were working would not generate a good reputation in the first few months.

 

[LeylandLen]

Not sure if this belongs here (move if necessary ) , thanks ...

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.../star-and-garter-manchester-pictures-10595403
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

 

[absolutelymilk]

Not sure if this belongs here (move if necessary ) , thanks ...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Thanks for the interesting link, I believe it probably belongs in a thread about the redevelopment of Piccadilly station (if there is one?) as it doesn't seem to mention the Ordsall Chord.

 

[snowball]

There's this thread:

www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=86587

 

[snowball]

User "trinityboy" on Skyscrapercity reports that the last steam rides at the Museum of Science and Industry are on Tuesday 5 Jan, due to works for the Chord.

 

[bitmadmax]

User "trinityboy" on Skyscrapercity reports that the last steam rides at the Museum of Science and Industry are on Tuesday 5 Jan, due to works for the Chord.

Presming these will be "truncated" rides?

 

[snowball]

Presming these will be "truncated" rides?

They won't be able to run onto the main line as the connection has been severed, but presumably they never did anyway?

 

[Joseph_Locke]

They won't be able to run onto the main line as the connection has been severed, but presumably they never did anyway?

No, they stopped at the gates, about 100m short of the main line connection.

 

[Class 170101]

How easy is it to transfer stock to / from this site by road?

A site I am aware of uses a preserved railway to get its stock to / from an accessible road location.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

How easy is it to transfer stock to / from this site by road?

A site I am aware of uses a preserved railway to get its stock to / from an accessible road location.

I don't think it's any more difficult than most other museums or heritage railways, as even when the connection was in place it was seldom used. For one thing many of the vehicles based at MOSI are pre-grouping and not fit to run even hauled on the national network. For another it's usually cheaper to move vehicles by road anyway as you only need to hire a low-loader, driver, and escort crew if needed. To move them by rail requires the vehicle(s) to be inspected and passed fit to run, then hiring a loco and drivers with route knowledge (or conductors), additional vehicles to provide brake force, and then you've got to find and pay for a path, plus compensation for any regular services delayed if anything goes Pete Tong!