Ordsall Chord

[Emyr]

Greenfield is almost always easier.

 

[Starmill]

Yes, lovely little village it is...

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The implication of any delay in announcing the grant of an Order seems to be that the Chord itself cannot be completed on time. What does that do to plans for franchises, timetable-changes, etc?

It wouldn't surprise me at all if the later phases of the NW electrification, along with the Ordsall Chord, were delayed into 2017.
NR doesn't seem to have got up to speed on any of the electrification projects (except possibly in Scotland).
The Chord planning permission issue I expect is down to genuine local environmental concerns.
It is changing the landscape of two cities after all.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Indeed, the Ordsall Chord is a key part of the rationalisation of the railways of the Manchester/Salford core through which it passes in order to allow four through platforms at Manchester Piccadilly to cope with the number of services that will no longer need to reverse from the bay platforms as part of through routes and the extra through services at Manchester Victoria station that will accrue as a result of this project.

Perhaps forum members may now keep this thread on their radar and report matters that are seen to be showing any progress in future months.
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Greenfield is almost always easier.

In what respect do you refer to in your quote above, as the "almost" word seems to imply a certain reservation.

 

[Emyr]

In what respect do you refer to in your quote above, as the "almost" word seems to imply a certain reservation.

Greenfield is not really a blank canvas despite a lack of pre-existing obstacles, as there might not be sufficient information on the structural viability below the grass and additional work might be needed to join your greenfield site up to anything useful.

 

[Senex]

NR doesn't seem to have got up to speed on any of the electrification projects (except possibly in Scotland).

There are the benefits of real devolution!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Greenfield is not really a blank canvas despite a lack of pre-existing obstacles, as there might not be sufficient information on the structural viability below the grass and additional work might be needed to join your greenfield site up to anything useful.

Such as the viaducts that no longer exist?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

There appears to be some confusion over the use of the word "Greenfield" here...

I think the original post was referring to 'greenfield sites' for building, rather than the Greater Manchester village of the same name.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

There appears to be some confusion over the use of the word "Greenfield" here...

I think the original post was referring to 'greenfield sites' for building, rather than the Greater Manchester village of the same name.

I cynically assumed that mention was being made once again of the Micklehurst Loop Line, which does pass through part of the land area of Greenfield, in its usual regular awakening on any threads that look to improved cross-Pennine rail routes...

 

[Emyr]

Wasn't aware of that station...

(Checks map)

That's quite far away from Ordsall.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Wasn't aware of that station...

(Checks map)

That's quite far away from Ordsall.

Still part of the area commonly referred to as Greater Manchester.

 

[AdamHewitt]

We have an update on this on the Rail Technology Magazine website today, if of interest.

Ordsall Chord timescales will be 'reassessed' after planning delays

Network Rail has confirmed to RTM that the timescales for the Ordsall Chord may need to be "reassessed" because of the long delays in obtaining permissions for the new stretch of track, which is vital to the rest of the Northern Hub upgrades.

It was responding to concerns raised by shadow rail minister Lilian Greenwood MP, who told RTM that the long delay in securing a Transport & Works Act (TWA) Order is "deeply concerning" and means “passengers deserve to know if this important project is still on track”.

The original aim was to start work in late 2014 or early 2015, but the planning process has significantly delayed construction.

Network Rail chief executive Mark Carne said last summer that the December 2016 completion date could still be hit, but only if the appropriate permissions were in place by the end of last year.

A Network Rail spokesman responded today: "The investment going into the railway in the north will bring huge benefits. The Northern Hub project will see more trains, faster and better journeys for millions of people. The Ordsall Chord is an important part of the overall scheme and Network Rail is currently awaiting a decision to be made on a TWA application. Once a decision has been made we will reassess the timescales for the project."

More at: http://www.railtechnologymagazine.c...date-under-threat-as-planning-delays-continue

 

[Class 170101]

In that article a comment was made at the end which seems on the face of it very sensible

20/02/2015 at 18:08

There were previous complaints of losing rail access to the museum. Looking at the top picture in the article you wonder why they didn't include a flat crossing like at Newark to maintain access?

Or indeed as the Welsh Highland have constructed to cross the NR Line in North Wales.

 

[Joseph_Locke]

Or indeed as the Welsh Highland have constructed to cross the NR Line in North Wales.

It isn't that simple. The Chord will be very busy, heavily curved, canted (I think) and at a different level. Even if you raised the MOSI connection and convinced everyone that two or possibly four square diamonds in the main line were a good idea, you still have a problem with the cant ...

... and then you might never be able to get a path out, though it is highly likely that it would have to be used only under a possession, for signalling reasons.

 

[Nym]

One still wonders why NR or whoever decides what is to be done doesn't just do a proper job in the area in the first place.

Take the line from Deansgate and put a double slip (term?) in at low level, with the lines from Victoria passing through a three way divergence, then loop round the land that is still empty above the Ordstall Lane area that people claim is to be developed for so many years but I've seen nothing. One can then curve at a much more gentle curve and pass through Salford Central in the current platform areas.
The Victoria to Liverpool route can be raised up on a viaduct on the current viaduct (a'la' DLR) to pass over the whole new Ordsall Lane Jcn area for Vic - Liverpool services.
This would then form a 6 track approach into Victoria from the West, the lower two being those that could terminate into a new set of bays around the former Exchange site, accessed by the long platform 3, and possibly a new entrance on the other side for the stopping services to Liverpool.

Drawing to come as this is hard to explain.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

This would then form a 6 track approach into Victoria from the West, the lower two being those that could terminate into a new set of bays around the former Exchange site, accessed by the long platform 3, and possibly a new entrance on the other side for the stopping services to Liverpool.

Has the new plan for the use of the former Exchange Station site for buildings now been scrapped?

 

[kevconnor]

Has the new plan for the use of the former Exchange Station site for buildings now been scrapped?

It went quiet when the financial crash happened. I think it was sold or marketed to be sold but the current owners did make submissions to the planning enquiry bemoaning the impact it may have if plan B was chosen.

 

[Geeves]

There is no chance or any west facing bays at Vic. The exchange side is now totally dug up with a multistory and towerblock being built on it!

 

[dysonsphere]

There is no chance or any west facing bays at Vic. The exchange side is now totally dug up with a multistory and towerblock being built on it!

Well that solves that idea

 

[Joseph_Locke]

One still wonders why NR or whoever decides what is to be done doesn't just do a proper job in the area in the first place.

Take the line from Deansgate and put a double slip (term?) in at low level, with the lines from Victoria passing through a three way divergence, then loop round the land that is still empty above the Ordstall Lane area that people claim is to be developed for so many years but I've seen nothing. One can then curve at a much more gentle curve and pass through Salford Central in the current platform areas.
The Victoria to Liverpool route can be raised up on a viaduct on the current viaduct (a'la' DLR) to pass over the whole new Ordsall Lane Jcn area for Vic - Liverpool services.
This would then form a 6 track approach into Victoria from the West, the lower two being those that could terminate into a new set of bays around the former Exchange site, accessed by the long platform 3, and possibly a new entrance on the other side for the stopping services to Liverpool.

Drawing to come as this is hard to explain.

Please make it to scale in 3D with acceptable CWR radii and 1 in 100 gradients between Ordsall and Central, but keeping the functionality at Ordsall Lane Junction - you'll soon find out why your idea doesn't work.

 

[Olaf]

I think the block on progress is the Grade 1 listings, not specifically the rail access to the museum site.

 

[Joseph_Locke]

Well that solves that idea

It was discounted by Hub long ago because the trains you want to terminate in these platforms have to cross the layout from Crescent and the 8-car provision puts the connection too far west to be a practial design.

 

[deltic08]

It was discounted by Hub long ago because the trains you want to terminate in these platforms have to cross the layout from Crescent and the 8-car provision puts the connection too far west to be a practial design.

But what if in the future trains from Piccadilly via Ordsall Chord needed to terminate at Vic without blocking through platforms? This can never happen now. Where is future proofing for growth? So short sighted as always.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

But what if in the future trains from Piccadilly via Ordsall Chord needed to terminate at Vic without blocking through platforms? This can never happen now. Where is future proofing for growth? So short sighted as always.

Were you making reference to an emergency termination at Manchester Victoria in your posting?

 

[The Planner]

If it is to do with pertubation you dont build on what ifs, there is no return on it.

 

[Nym]

Please make it to scale in 3D with acceptable CWR radii and 1 in 100 gradients between Ordsall and Central, but keeping the functionality at Ordsall Lane Junction - you'll soon find out why your idea doesn't work.

Ah cheers, track design down to a pway level isn't my strongpoint, my previous work on stuff like this was simulating layouts using an STS and MTS simulator.

 

[QueensCurve]

There is no chance or any west facing bays at Vic. The exchange side is now totally dug up with a multistory and towerblock being built on it!

Sad. I do recall walking the full length of what was the longest platform in Britain.

 

[Class 170101]

It isn't that simple. The Chord will be very busy, heavily curved, canted (I think) and at a different level. Even if you raised the MOSI connection and convinced everyone that two or possibly four square diamonds in the main line were a good idea, you still have a problem with the cant ...

... and then you might never be able to get a path out, though it is highly likely that it would have to be used only under a possession, for signalling reasons.

How much is the height difference between the MOSI and Ordsall Chord? Can the Chord not just pass (bridge) over or is it a metter of insufficient height?

 

[Joseph_Locke]

How much is the height difference between the MOSI and Ordsall Chord? Can the Chord not just pass (bridge) over or is it a metter of insufficient height?

About a metre, I think.

 

[Ploughman]

Does that mean that the Chord is about a metre above the MOSI track or that the clearance to the MOSI track is a metre short?
If the latter then would a track lowering be a possibility to retain the link?

I know its all been discussed at length before just eliminating a thread before it starts again.