Ordsall Chord

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Thanks for that...having problems with the Internet this evening.

I suppose the plan to sever the rail link to MOSI would have made that particular location not an ideal place to have held one of these meetings there as they did in 2012.

 

[snail]

No real surprises in there, though it is good to see the provision of stopping at Salford Central included by moving tracks across to the disused platforms.

Be interesting to see how vociferous MOSI are about losing their connection to the network. Will they be selfish or see it as being for the greater good.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

These are hugely detailed documents.
Network Rail are to be congratulated in publishing all this.
I was especially interested to read the Heritage Assessment (3.3), which gives a revealing description of the development of the area over centuries.
Hard to believe Liverpool Road station was essentially at the southern end of the city when built, or that a large prison (the Bailey) occupied the north bank of the Irwell at this point.

I note that the format of the proposal makes many references to the Ipswich Chord and North Doncaster flyover proposals as they were the first NR developments to use the new planning legislation.
NR must be very keen to establish a succession of uncontroversial planning approvals - the Norton Bridge plans will follow the same template.

I wish the consultation well.
MOSI have probably already been "squared" in the planning process, but there's still plenty of room for opposition from the residential property owners, or from individuals as has happened at Oxford over Evergreen 3.
I couldn't see much reference to bats anywhere...

 

[Chris125]

The only major concern i have is the choice of exposed concrete, i know the idea is to make the new structure distinctive from the old but the area already features a variety of brick viaducts of different ages.

I can't see it weathering as well as brick either - not only is it likely to feature a patchwork of painted-over graffiti in due course but the Corten Steel parapets are surely going to produce rusty streaks on the concrete below, never a good look.

Chris

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The only major concern i have is the choice of exposed concrete, i know the idea is to make the new structure distinctive from the old but the area already features a variety of brick viaducts of different ages.

I can't see it weathering as well as brick either - not only is it likely to feature a patchwork of painted-over graffiti in due course but the Corten Steel parapets are surely going to produce rusty streaks on the concrete below, never a good look.

Chris

If anyone has ever seen Rowlandsway House near to Wythenshawe bus station, you will see a prime example of how weathering can affect a large edifice of concrete brutalistic architecture.

 

[WatcherZero]

One of the documents has minutes of the meetings between the various stakeholder groups, from them its pretty clear that the MOSI issues arent resolved. One interesting proposal in the meetings was for the MOSI shuttle ride to run to Salford Central (presumably sharing the new chord?) but Salford Council shot it down as they thought it would take land needed for the expansion of Salford Central.

 

[snowball]

One of the documents has minutes of the meetings between the various stakeholder groups, from them its pretty clear that the MOSI issues arent resolved.

My impression is that they are completely resolved from Network Rail's point of view, i.e. NR has decided that the MOSI rail link needs to be severed; and unless NR are overruled, severed it will be.

(Edit: Admittedly I haven't yet read the document you refer to; I'm going from the wording in the Environmental Statement.)

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

My wife and I will be attending the first of the four project update exhibitions later today (Wednesday, 8th May) at the Castlefield Hotel on Liverpool Road, just across the way from MOSI that will be open from 1200-2000.

It will be interesting to note the calibre of exhibition staff that will be provided to answer questions that are not just of a generalised nature.


--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Summary

The Network Rail event today at the Castlefield Hotel was set in one very small hotel ground-floor side room with five Network Rail staff in attendance of which one was quite good being an engineer rather than of the media staff. My wife and I were the only visitors there at approx 1345 hours. I learnt nothing new to what an attentive mind had not already garnered from the Network Rail website and from discussions on various transport forums.

 

[Joseph_Locke]

... one was quite good being an engineer rather than of the media staff...

Name? I can pass on your positive feedback ...

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Name? I can pass on your positive feedback ...

I went yesterday too, at about 1300.
Small event, but I was impressed with the team there.
I spent a bit of time with a young guy who knew a great deal (also about other NR projects like Evergreen 3 and its current planning hiatus).
They unrolled all the plans and took the time to explain things.
I learnt a bit more about the Castlefield viaduct widening (on the north side it seems) and the route through Salford Central.
Sorry I didn't note any names.
There was a trickle of other folk - 2 or 3 while I was there.

 

[snowball]

I learnt a bit more about the Castlefield viaduct widening (on the north side it seems) and the route through Salford Central.

I haven't been to the exhib as I live in Leeds.

Since the Chord diverges from the Castlefield viaduct on its north side, it's inevitable that there's widening on the north side, but from the online plans you can see that there's also a bit of widening on the south side. This improves the alignment of the route from Picc to Liverpool and Bolton, and makes use of some available land on the south side, whereas the availability of land on the north side is very much constrained by for example the flats south of Liverpool Road (Wollam Place?).

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Name? I can pass on your positive feedback ...

I am ashamed to say that I did not obtain his name. It was just pleased to be able to talk to one of his calibre, rather than to other staff from non-engineering departments. If you find out who was there in attendance just after the opening (just after lunchtime) at the Castlefield Hotel on Wednesday (the first of the two days), I am sure that you will know exactly to whom I allude.

My comments made in my earlier posting about the size of the room provided at the Castlefield Hotel should be taken on board. However, the next two-day venue is in a different location, which may well be better in that respect.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

As the previous thread has been locked, I have opened this new thread, as I am informed that the TWA unit within the Department for Transport will consider and determine the application for the Ordsall Chord project.

If anyone has any updated news on matters that appertain to this project at the present time, I would be pleased to hear of them.

 

[snowball]

I sent a message to one of the moderators earlier today asking for the old thread to be unlocked so that I could post the same news.

I don't understand this site's policy of locking threads that are about continuing projects.

All the latest Network Rail documentation is here. I don't know in what ways, if any, it has changed since the time of the last consultation.

 

[Cliveblackpool]

At the moment progressing as expected?
Printed Plans from yesterday on view at locations in Manchester and online until 28th October.
28 October 2013 - Closing date to submit feedback to TWA unit
http://www.networkrail.co.uk/north/Ordsall-Chord.aspx

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

There's a lot to absorb here but from what I have read the plan is still opposed by MoSI.
The TfGM consultation response also seems to be a bit testy at times, suggesting they don't altogether like the plan.
On p342 they seem to think the alternatives (eg Ardwick grade separation) need to be discussed.
Salford wants the new pedestrian bridge moved away from the chord to a more useful location.
The estimated cost is quoted at £132m and for the Northern Hub as a whole £673m, significantly less than the first estimate of £1bn.
The spec is for 8x23m trains to stand on the chord, which sounds like an upper limit on future service and fleet planning through Manchester.

 

[WatcherZero]

If it is 8x23m thats good, people were speculating after the intial consultation the limit would be 6x23m because it looked shorter than initially proposed.

 

[The Planner]

214m standage from the plans I have seen, so you could squeeze 9x23m in.

 

[Nym]

214m standage from the plans I have seen, so you could squeeze 9x23m in.

8x23m is pretty much the outer limit for Oxford Road extentions and any possible Deansgate extentions though. The only alternatives I can think involve a massive grade seperation project and really slewing out into the scrublands north of Orsdall Lane Jcn.

 

[northwichcat]

Yet again the BBC have reported on a press release on a topic that they've reported on before as if it the whole idea is new.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

214m standage from the plans I have seen, so you could squeeze 9x23m in.

Squeeze being the operative word. Most new '23m' carriages are at least 23.5m. A 9 car 185 would be just 16cm shorter than 214m.

 

[WatcherZero]

Eesh, just looked at the files, an 18mb consultation response!!??

There was no need to tack on a 30 page appendix of graphic heavy consultation leaflet evidence to a 400 page text document, they could easily have been in a seperate appendix file.


Design and Access statement, modifications from the initial consultation proposal to mitigate MOSI concerns.

1. Existing track and contaminated ballast of the 'Pineapple Line' will be removed and replaced with appropiate materials to allow a walking route associated with the Ordsall Chord pedestrian arrangements.
2. On completion of the Ordsall Chord the area covered by the Grade 1 and Grade 2 listed railway and bridges will be reinstated in such a way as to allow a walking route through the Grade 1 listed station building.
3. The condition of the arches below the viaduct will be assessed with a view to repointing the brickwork and giving the space over to MOSI use.
4. The existing tarmacadam surface on the Liverpool Road access ramp upto rail level will be replaced with flagstones if required.
5. Network Rail will make every effort to provide 60 car parking spaces for MOSI staff during construction, the roads will be well signposted to assist the 65% of museum vistors that arrive by car.

(suggests also that there may be other 'benefits' to MOSI from Network Rail that dont require planning permission)

Few more Mitgation commitments in the Environmental Statement.

6. Sections of railway within the site will be reinstated to maintain a working steam exhibition which will demonstrate to the public a working freight operation.
7. Network Rail will fund a survey of the travelling crane operation in order to support the working freight demonstration
8. The future use of arches north of Water Street will be considered for Network Rail or MOSI


So does that indicate that while the passenger railway ride will disapear a new freight exhibit with a moving crane will be created?

 

[IanXC]

I sent a message to one of the moderators earlier today asking for the old thread to be unlocked so that I could post the same news.

I don't understand this site's policy of locking threads that are about continuing projects.

I have reopened the old thread and merged the new posts with it.

We lock old threads to ensure unrelated new topics are not discussed on old threads, which happens more often than you would imagine! Unfortunately due to the sheer number of threads its not possible to review each one individually, but we will always consider reopening an old thread where there are developments to discuss - the report function is the best way to do this.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I have reopened the old thread and merged the new posts with it.

We lock old threads to ensure unrelated new topics are not discussed on old threads, which happens more often than you would imagine! Unfortunately due to the sheer number of threads its not possible to review each one individually, but we will always consider reopening an old thread where there are developments to discuss - the report function is the best way to do this.

Thank you for doing this as this project is part of the current major rail improvement to the Manchester area which will see both the Victoria and the Piccadilly stations linked by heavy rail with improved rail service patterns to and from other areas. It will also obviate the need to cross the station throat of the Piccadilly station by a number of the First TPE services.

You will note that the "report function" button had already been used by the forum members to make the point of the thread having to be remade. Some of us more attentive to forum management requests do tend to remember such matters...and act upon them when required.

 

[snowball]

Thanks for drawing my attention to the report button. I'd never noticed it before.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Looking back in what is now this thread, I see that the Ordsall Chord thread that has been restored is not the one I was expecting.

This is one that has been dormant since 2011, long before I was a member. There's another one that has been used in 2012-13 to discuss earlier stages of the planning application process. It's here:

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=74694

Mod Note: Also now merged in

 

[snowball]

The Network Rail website is saying there will be a public inquiry into the Ordsall Chord this spring:

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/north/Ordsall-Chord.aspx

I've no idea whether this information is recent or whether it's been up for weeks. It isn't present as a news item, I only found it because I looked up the Chord on the site.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I remember making a recent posting somewhere else stating that the MOSI objection to the Ordsall Chord in its current line projection was being handled by someone with connections to the Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway Society.

 

[Viscount702]

A public inquiry was called for back in November but I don't believe any of us or the Media has picked up on it until Snowball saw it mentioned on the NR website. In fact I know it wasn't on the NR website a few weeks ago so it is relatively new.

 

[WatcherZero]

Transport Secretary covering his ass I guess, too afraid to make the call himself so hes leaving it to a inquiry.

 

[kevconnor]

I dont know if it is still valid but NR website still stating it should be operational by December 2016. With a public enquiry in the offing I can't imagine this will now be achievable.

 

[snowball]

Someone on SSC has found a Salford City Council document giving the inquiry date as 23 April:

http://services.salford.gov.uk/solar_documents/6 report ordsall chord & salford central.docx