Options for 319s

[Islineclear3_1]

If we are in the realms of fantasy, I would love to see GTR replace the 19 cl313s on the south coast diagrams with the same amount of cl319s even though it's not a franchise commitment. Then we get an extra coach and we get our toilets back. But I'm sure there is a master plan sitting on a desk in an office at DaFT waiting to be put into use that will use all the cl319s that we haven't thought of lol

You dared to say it before me

Personally I think they would be ideal on the East/West Coastway; they don't need a pan/transformer which might mean better acceleration (carrying less weight around)

 

[Minstral25]

It would be good if Southern get a batch so that shoulder peak trains to Victoria can be increased from 4 to 8 coaches and peak from 8 to 12. Too many regular overcrowded short formations on a daily basis.

I don't see enough 700's to do enable this to happen, especially with 25 377's off to South-Eastern and a batch of 377/5's to Great Northern. For Southern's existing services only Horsham, Tattenham and a few peak trains are currently run by 377's that will be taken over by 700's so not many units let loose.

Even the 387/2's are only removing 442's.

 

[ScotGG]

I've been banging on about southeastern's need for more stock. Class 319s on Victoria to Dartford and Orpington services would free up Networkers to ensure all peak time services are at least 10 carriages with more 12 car running. Currently there's only about 3 12-car services in the morning peak and 1 in the evening, despite millions being spent by NR upgrading power supply and platforms the past couple of years.

This link shows how many current services are 8 or 10 cars - http://www.newsshopper.co.uk/news/1...ak_time_trains_where_you_ll_never_get_a_seat/

There just isn't the stock to really make use of all of Network Rail's recent expensive investment.

What the link doesn't show is that some services are 6 car on Victoria routes. This is completely inadequate and 8 car 319s would help out there.

Demand will only increase sharply in the southeastern territory. SE London and NW Kent are designated as the one of the main areas for housebuilding the next 10 years. It already has some of the largest population growth figures UK wide the past 5 years. Much housebuilding at places just outside London around Dartford has been at a trickle admittedly, but with population growth building will have to happen. HS1 is already overcrowded and won't take all future growth, particularly for the Dartford area as it means travelling out to Northfleet, an awkward change to Ebbsfleet then going to King's Cross. Most newcomers will take SE direct to the City or to Abbey Wood to change for Crossrail.

However, many from Kent changing to Crossrail won't negate the need for more stock. Further into London further mass housing growth is planned at Charlton, Greenwich, Deptford etc.

And Crossrail isn't much good for those on the other 2 Dartford lines (eg mass building at Kidbrooke & Lewisham), nor Hayes and Orpington / Sevenoaks. All are very busy.

 

[physics34]

as mentioned would like to see them replace 313s on the south coast or southern 455s.

both unlikely to happen though.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It would be good if Southern get a batch so that shoulder peak trains to Victoria can be increased from 4 to 8 coaches and peak from 8 to 12. Too many regular overcrowded short formations on a daily basis.

I don't see enough 700's to do enable this to happen, especially with 25 377's off to South-Eastern and a batch of 377/5's to Great Northern. For Southern's existing services only Horsham, Tattenham and a few peak trains are currently run by 377's that will be taken over by 700's so not many units let loose.

Even the 387/2's are only removing 442's.

i guess southern will get the 377/2s back........??? (not sure though)

 

[martynbristow]

It would be good if Southern get a batch so that shoulder peak trains to Victoria can be increased from 4 to 8 coaches and peak from 8 to 12. Too many regular overcrowded short formations on a daily basis.

I don't see enough 700's to do enable this to happen, especially with 25 377's off to South-Eastern and a batch of 377/5's to Great Northern. For Southern's existing services only Horsham, Tattenham and a few peak trains are currently run by 377's that will be taken over by 700's so not many units let loose.

Even the 387/2's are only removing 442's.

Is there any reason for Southern etc to do this.
I suppose it puts the ball in the TOC's court but if they run longer trains its going to cost more. Are they willing to take the risk ?

 

[jopsuk]

What Southern/Southeastern could ideally do with is a batch of 376/378 type units for the Metro routes, displacing 377/465/455 out onto longer routes

 

[LBSCR Times]

Is there any reason for Southern etc to do this.
I suppose it puts the ball in the TOC's court but if they run longer trains its going to cost more. Are they willing to take the risk ?

In the case of what was Southern, it will be GTR and they are on a management contract, so either any extra costs will mean less profit, cuts elsewhere or the DfT paying out.

 

[andyb2706]

Again, I'm sure this has been discussed elsewhere. Something to do with the loading gauge?

Yep,that's correct. The GN 313's were built to a special loading gauge so that they could fit into the tunnels to Morrgate that were designed for tube trains.

 

[petersi]

No the north city tunnels were designed for mainline trains
People who in a position to know have stated that the loading gauge is not that restrictive
The 319's are not suitable as they are not the best at acceleration. On the welwyn branch the spacing between stations is typically 2-3 miles so trains geared for 75 top speed and good acceleration are required

 

[swt_passenger]

Yep,that's correct. The GN 313's were built to a special loading gauge so that they could fit into the tunnels to Morrgate that were designed for tube trains.

They were not tunnels designed for tube trains, but were 16ft diameter, designed for the mainline stock in use at the time of building.

LU did run tube stock on the line immediately prior to closure for conversion prior to BR takeover in the seventies, and unfortunately the ability of that tube stock to overide the leading cars contributed to the scale of the Moorgate disaster.

 

[andyb2706]

I stand corrected....made the error of reading Wikipedia....school boy error. I went of the second paragraph in the description of the link below

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_313

 

[ScotGG]

Another 4 carriage peak southeastern train leaving Victoria. They really need more stock.

 

[physics34]

What Southern/Southeastern could ideally do with is a batch of 376/378 type units for the Metro routes, displacing 377/465/455 out onto longer routes

really the only routes which 376/378s would be good for on southern is the London Bridge to LOndon Victoria/Beckenham Jct/Wimbledon/West Croydon routes. The rest of southerns "metro" tends to dip into suburban surrey, which these would be unsuitable for.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

What is the possibility of 319's displacing 465/9 Wealdon units on the Victoria - Maidstone East/Ashford services? The 465/9s could then displace standard Networkers on the Gravesend/Gillingham turns, which in turn could strengthen peak hour services

 

[anthony263]

Perhaps south wales could have some for the Swansea - Cardiff route once the line to Swansea is wired with some also being used between Cardiff & Bristol maybe in addition to the Cardiff - Portsmouth Hbr/Taunton services

 

[northwichcat]

Another 4 carriage peak southeastern train leaving Victoria. They really need more stock.

And yet EMT operate peak services with just a single carriage.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Could some of the ones not spoken for goto TPE and TPE's 350s goto either LM or SWT (external DC equipment added)?

 

[Wavertreelad]

There's still the potential for use with Merseyrail, if they will fit the modern tunnels.
They could then be used to expand the network with their dual voltage capability (eg to Warrington).
Could be a relatively cheap option for a cash-strapped operation.
There is also the question of upgrades (retractioning etc) to prolong their useful life.
Splitting the fleet over multiple operators won't help an upgrade programme.

This article would seem to suggest a Class 66 could fit the modern tunnels,

"New rails were fixed to Vipa baseplates. Jigs were used to set out the straight rails to the required radius with up to 65mm cant. The design alignment was based on the envelope of a Class 66 - more onerous than the stock generally used in the tunnel. Finally the metal walkways and third rail were installed."

http://www.storycontracting.com/rail/project-focus/87-merseyloop-an-underground-network

Perhaps this would allow 319 operations through the tunnels with the pan down and using the third rail option. However the problem would then be the four car sets as opposed to the Merseyrail standard three car set. Far better option would be moving 313's to Merseyrail after refurbishment to allow existing services to be strengthened, and with no toilets to upgrade the cost could be kept to a reasonable level. The fleets in the South East could then be juggled to optimise capacity including the 442's, leaving the 319's to come North to replace existing DMU's on both sides of the Pennines.

 

[edwin_m]

As with the Great Northern, 319s don't really have the power to weight ratio to work well on Merseyrail.

Classes 317, 319 and 321 are essentially the same design and the respective leasing companies have produced demonstrator refurbishments of 317 and 321, so presumably the same would be possible with a 319. I understand the 319 would need more auxiliary power to allow aircon - does anyone know if the same applies to 317 and 321?

It has to be said that some of these three classes are likely to be heading for Eastern Europe or the scrapyard in the next few years, unless the Government does a dramatic about-turn on announcements already made about new train orders.

 

[martynbristow]

As with the Great Northern, 319s don't really have the power to weight ratio to work well on Merseyrail.

Classes 317, 319 and 321 are essentially the same design and the respective leasing companies have produced demonstrator refurbishments of 317 and 321, so presumably the same would be possible with a 319. I understand the 319 would need more auxiliary power to allow aircon - does anyone know if the same applies to 317 and 321?

It has to be said that some of these three classes are likely to be heading for Eastern Europe or the scrapyard in the next few years, unless the Government does a dramatic about-turn on announcements already made about new train orders.

They could be useful on Merseyrail but they are slightly longer than the 507/8s and they are enough of an issue with tight curves.
Merseyrail needs the extra stock but have previously turned there nose up at it! :/

 

[158756]

It has to be said that some of these three classes are likely to be heading for Eastern Europe or the scrapyard in the next few years, unless the Government does a dramatic about-turn on announcements already made about new train orders.

The recently published update to the rolling stock strategy, such as it is, mentions the possibility of units being off-lease at the end of CP5 before being brought back into use.
That though would require ROSCOs to be willing and able to maintain trains not in service, for a number of years possibly, and to have confidence that a government making further spending cuts will invest in electrification of suitable, relatively lightly used routes.

 

[Minstral25]

i guess southern will get the 377/2s back........??? (not sure though)

They are earmarked to make Milton keynes services 8-car, releasing 377/7's back to Metro routes to reduce reliance on 455's which will be "rested" more
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

What Southern/Southeastern could ideally do with is a batch of 376/378 type units for the Metro routes, displacing 377/465/455 out onto longer routes

Southern already have a fleet - they are called 377/6 and 377/7's
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Another 4 carriage peak southeastern train leaving Victoria. They really need more stock.

We have peak services from Redhill route to Victoria that are just 4 coach too, leaving people on platforms. Not just a SE issue shortage of stock

 

[Bletchleyite]

They are earmarked to make Milton keynes services 8-car, releasing 377/7's back to Metro routes to reduce reliance on 455's which will be "rested" more

Good news there. I always thought the metro-style 377/7s were probably a (welcome) stopgap.

 

[northwichcat]

Could some of the ones not spoken for goto TPE and TPE's 350s goto either LM or SWT (external DC equipment added)?

TPE aren't likely to keep 350/4s in the long term. Although there's been a suggestion 350/4s will go to Northern for the routes they take over from TPE.

319s wouldn't be suitable for any TPE services.

Of course, the 319s already have DC equipment and don't have a low density seating so would be more suitable for SWT in their current state.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

TPE aren't likely to keep 350/4s in the long term. Although there's been a suggestion 350/4s will go to Northern for the routes they take over from TPE.

319s wouldn't be suitable for any TPE services.

Of course, the 319s already have DC equipment and don't have a low density seating so would be more suitable for SWT in their current state.

Would SWT's 455s and 456s potentially be able to work with 319s in service without any modifications?

 

[Domh245]

Would SWT's 455s and 456s potentially be able to work with 319s in service without any modifications?

No, quite simply. They could couple mechanically, but that'd be it. Beyond that, you'd need to modify the 319s to have the old SR multiple working cable (can't remember how many pins off of the top of my head) as well as the air hoses. Either that or run them on their own, but I can't really think of any services they would be suitable for. You could use them on a new local service around the south coast,
eg
Portsmouth Harbour - Lymington Pier
Portsmouth Harbour - Bournemouth
Portsmouth Harbour - Basingstoke

etc

but, like I said, I don't really have any idea if a) there are paths, b) there is demand, c) would it be within the franchise specification


To be honest, I think that the best bet for the 319s would be consolidating them at one operator, such as Northern, subject to a large scale refurbishment - new traction , new interior, air conditioning, removal of 1 carriage etc. This may have to be done at the expense of the 323s, but with a timetable recast, the effect of this could be reduced. I am also thinking that using the 319s at southern as the coastway fleet would be a feasible idea, which would allow the retirement of 313s and the movement of 377s to other mainline or metro services, although again, a proper refurbishment would be in order.

With my blue-sky thinking hat firmly wedged on my head, I'm also wondering about what could be done if they were shortened. There would be a large amount of mk3 EMU bodyshells knocking around, from the 319 shortening and the movement of 7 321s to Scotland. It might be feasible to construct some driving vehicles with the necessary traction equipment which could then be used on other routes.

 

[Bletchleyite]

With my blue-sky thinking hat firmly wedged on my head, I'm also wondering about what could be done if they were shortened. There would be a large amount of mk3 EMU bodyshells knocking around, from the 319 shortening and the movement of 7 321s to Scotland. It might be feasible to construct some driving vehicles with the necessary traction equipment which could then be used on other routes.

Probably too expensive to be worth it for vehicles with relatively limited life left in them. Might just be better to keep some in storage in case any of the existing ones suffer accident damage.

 

[47802]

Probably too expensive to be worth it for vehicles with relatively limited life left in them. Might just be better to keep some in storage in case any of the existing ones suffer accident damage.

Indeed so, SWT could look at replacing their PEP trailers if they thought it worthwhile.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

So what about using 319's on the Wealdon services to Maidstone/Ashford releasing 465/9 units to strengthen Metro services to Gillingham etc?

The other question then is what will work the Kentish Town - Sevenoaks service once the 700s arrive? Will this be curtailed back to Blackfriars/Victoria? Surely it would make sense to utilise 319's (for which they already work) and release further Networkers to strengthen Metro routes

 

[northwichcat]

This may have to be done at the expense of the 323s, but with a timetable recast, the effect of this could be reduced.

I'm not sure Virgin will be happy re-timing their services so that trains less quick off the mark can be used on stopping services. Usually Virgin get first choice of paths, the other long distance operators get second choice and Northern get stuck with what's left.

This train (a 323): http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y52002/2015/03/25/advanced is only 3 minutes ahead of this one (a 390): http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/P50162/2015/03/25/advanced on the double track section just north of Stoke, so a small delay between Macclesfield and Stoke on the stopper can delay the Virgin service.

I don't think SWT will need 319s or 350/4s given they've just been involved in placing an order for a load of brand new trains.