Options for 319s

[northwichcat]

As we know it's confirmed Thames Valley will not be getting 319s, with 319s having originally been the recommended option when Thames Valley electrification was first proposed.

Northern have signed a lease for 20 of them, while at present 7 have been secured by LM and 6 were secured by Southeastern to allow them to loan 377s from Southern.

In total there's 33 units with short term futures secured. There's 86 of them, with 53 with no future having been agreed once they are released from Thameslink.

One option that been suggested is Northern would eventually take on all the 319s alongside the 350/4s (for Blackpool/Windermere services that they will take over from TPE.) However, Northern are unlikely to need to take anywhere near 76 additional 4 car EMUs during the next franchise. If they release EMUs then that just means a different type of EMU will be off-lease instead.

I know LM and Southeastern, in particular could take on additional EMUs (either 319s or other EMUs released by 319s.)

An option people don't seem to like is making the 319s 3 car, which will make it easier for Northern to operate them doubled up and will also mean they can be re-engineered to accelerate faster. That is a way Northern can use a lot more EMUs, as there would need to be more doubled up services.

Are there any other obvious options?

 

[387star]

Surely southeastern will get some
Greater Anglia might like some

 

[Islineclear3_1]

I think this has been discussed at length on another thread (which escapes me at present) but I would think it unlikely that SouthEastern would take them on (despite the overcrowding) especially as a) they should be getting some 377/1's from Southern and b) yet another type of rolling stock to maintain.

Perhaps Northern could take them all and provide better use for the 350/4's but I am not familiar with Northern Rail and therefore not in a position to comment.

I don't know if LM could utilise them on the Euston - Tring stoppers (in addition to the 7 for the Abbey branch) and release 350s elsewhere

This could be interesting as the oldest are only 26 years old (approx) and they have plenty of service life left in them

 

[hwl]

An SE option might be put them on the Vic-Orpington services thus releasing some 465/466s for lengthening services else where on the SE network.

MML services e.g. Corby as things get electrified before a permanent solution is sorted?

 

[northwichcat]

This could be interesting as the oldest are only 26 years old (approx) and they have plenty of service life left in them

Originally it was proposed 319s for Thames Valley initially with the option of some 319s on Thames Valley being replaced by 110mph trains at a later date. That would then have put 319s in use and allowed them to be cascaded to other lines when more electrification was completed.

However, DfT's decision to order 387s together with electrification being delayed not accelerated means there could be too many EMUs in the short term.
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MML services e.g. Corby as things get electrified before a permanent solution is sorted?

375/6s are supposed to be released from Southeastern to Corby-London services, with Southeastern getting a higher number of 377s released as a result of the new Thameslink trains. However, according to posts on other threads a few extra EMUs now and a few extra EMUs in a few years time isn't anyway near enough for Southeastern.

 

[387star]

I think this has been discussed at length on another thread (which escapes me at present) but I would think it unlikely that SouthEastern would take them on (despite the overcrowding) especially as a) they should be getting some 377/1's from Southern and b) yet another type of rolling stock to maintain.

Perhaps Northern could take them all and provide better use for the 350/4's but I am not familiar with Northern Rail and therefore not in a position to comment.

I don't know if LM could utilise them on the Euston - Tring stoppers (in addition to the 7 for the Abbey branch) and release 350s elsewhere

This could be interesting as the oldest are only 26 years old (approx) and they have plenty of service life left in them

Why 377/1s they are Southerns best 377s with low capacity seating layouts in the first batch

 

[A0]

MML services e.g. Corby as things get electrified before a permanent solution is sorted?

That would not go down well with travellers from Corby, Kettering or Wellingborough - particularly given the fares from those places are significantly more than comparable distances on other lines.

The Meridians are well regarded - the 319s would be a massive retrograde step.


How about reducing them to 3 car and replacing the 313s on the GN Moorgate services?

 

[jopsuk]

It would be unlikely that Greater Anglia would take them. In the near future there will be 317s and 321s released by Great Northern- if anything the GA franchise would have more use for those. There will also be the 317s released by the London Overground West Anglia stock replacement (317s that are currently, um, with GA). If those aren't enough, then a better plan would involve 319s going to Northern to replace the 321/9 and 322 fleets, with the released units then going the GEML.

That would then mean GA would have 115 out of 122 321/322 (there's seven going to Scotrail) and all 72 317. If the Scotrail units were then repatriated they could potentially have 194 Mark 3 EMUs in two classes...

 

[Islineclear3_1]

How about reducing them to 3 car and replacing the 313s on the GN Moorgate services?

Again, I'm sure this has been discussed elsewhere. Something to do with the loading gauge?

 

[northwichcat]

How about reducing them to 3 car and replacing the 313s on the GN Moorgate services?

Govia have agreed to provide 150 brand new Metro style carriages as replacement for the 313s.

It seems DfT have sanctioned too many new commuter EMU orders. Strangely with DMUs there's a shortage of carriages for commuter style services but with EMUs it's the reverse, while some of the Virgin Voyagers are being used on fully electrified lines.

 

[jopsuk]

Other places: people keep on talking about about 313s or 315s for South Wales. however, they're rather old- the 315s are in their mid thirties. 319s (perhaps shortened, perhaps not) may be useful for the Valley lines, allowing the PEP-based stock to be gracefully turned into razor blades.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Are there any other obvious options?

There's still the potential for use with Merseyrail, if they will fit the modern tunnels.
They could then be used to expand the network with their dual voltage capability (eg to Warrington).
Could be a relatively cheap option for a cash-strapped operation.
There is also the question of upgrades (retractioning etc) to prolong their useful life.
Splitting the fleet over multiple operators won't help an upgrade programme.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Mk3 derived EMUs don't fit the tunnels, I believe. 50x are noticeably smaller.

 

[northwichcat]

Other places: people keep on talking about about 313s or 315s for South Wales. however, they're rather old- the 315s are in their mid thirties. 319s (perhaps shortened, perhaps not) may be useful for the Valley lines, allowing the PEP-based stock to be gracefully turned into razor blades.

I imagine the idea was 319s would all have been released and taken on by other TOCs well before Valley Lines was ready to start taking electrified trains. While 315s being released later could be used as an interim measure for Valley Lines.

I imagine the Welsh Assembly wanted a situation similar to the Leeds commuter lines in the late 1990s where if they can't get new stock straight away, then can find a way of getting it within the first few years the wires are up. Taking on 319s may mean they have to wait 10 years for new trains.

 

[jopsuk]

However if it turns out the 319s aren't taken before then, it gives the opportunity for them to undergo a more thorough program of work than for Northern- with new seating, new traction and even a new cab end if desired.

 

[fgwrich]

When are the ScotRail 314s due to be retired? Could a batch of 319s be suitable for the Glasgow Electrics Network? Possibly - If the platform lengths would allow 8 cars, to release the 318s to somewhere like South Wales?

 

[ac6000cw]

Slightly off-the-wall idea:

Since they already have a 750V DC power bus running through the unit (because of the 3rd rail capability), how about doing a Vivarail-style conversion to bi-mode units ?

Keep the pantograph/transformer/rectifier etc, and add the diesel generator rafts to the trailer cars (feeding the power car via the 750V bus). With new interiors and maybe aircon they could be quite useful as outer-suburban/inter-urban bi-mode trains - 100mph capable and with a door layout suitable for heavy peak time flows.

 

[martynbristow]

I imagine the idea was 319s would all have been released and taken on by other TOCs well before Valley Lines was ready to start taking electrified trains. While 315s being released later could be used as an interim measure for Valley Lines.

I imagine the Welsh Assembly wanted a situation similar to the Leeds commuter lines in the late 1990s where if they can't get new stock straight away, then can find a way of getting it within the first few years the wires are up. Taking on 319s may mean they have to wait 10 years for new trains.

I think the welsh assembly want new trains! I'm sure they shunned the idea of 319's a while back.
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What the cascade timetable and how does this compare with electrification coming online.
Potentially Northern could significantly up their order as some of there services could get better usage with faster journeys.

The issue with the 319's is the internal configuration is there a reason this can't be improved by spending a little, I've not had a chance to get on one yet but i hear the seats are awful.

I'm sure theres strengthening required but unless the DfT gets out the thumb screws will the TOCs want to take on extra risk for a small return?

 

[47802]

Slightly off-the-wall idea:

Since they already have a 750V DC power bus running through the unit (because of the 3rd rail capability), how about doing a Vivarail-style conversion to bi-mode units ?

Keep the pantograph/transformer/rectifier etc, and add the diesel generator rafts to the trailer cars (feeding the power car via the 750V bus). With new interiors and maybe aircon they could be quite useful as outer-suburban/inter-urban bi-mode trains - 100mph capable and with a door layout suitable for heavy peak time flows.

They are significantly heavier than D trains for starter's for any envisaged Vivarail job, maybe you stick an IEP engine underneath them

The question is how many will be required for Northern on completion of the North West electrification, as Jcollins has pointed out if some or all were converted to 3 car this would require more, I guess if you did 321 demonstrator upgrade to at least some with Air Con and new 2+2 seats you could use them as the required regional units instead of the 350's, I guess the Northern Bidders may have some different idea's on how many 319's they want.

I was going to suggest that they would need some for local services once North TPX is electrified, but the ITT seems intent on getting rid of such as the Huddersfield - Leeds stopper for the Semi Slow TPX service.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The issue with the 319's is the internal configuration is there a reason this can't be improved by spending a little, I've not had a chance to get on one yet but i hear the seats are awful.

I wouldn't call them awful, but I wouldn't call them good either. They are just bog-standard 3+2 commuter units with fairly standard medium-height seats. The seats are the same as the original 150/2 ones.

 

[northwichcat]

When are the ScotRail 314s due to be retired?

Hitachi EMUs have been ordered as replacement.

 

[thealexweb]

Northern Rail will need most of the remaining Class 319s surely. Also ten Class 350s are not enough to run all the promised Blackpool North and Windermere diagrams. Northern Rail needs 20 just to get all its Liverpool diagrams over to EMU. How many more will be needed for already announced electrification:

@ Blackpool North to Huddersfield
@ Preston to Hazel Grove
@ Wigan North Western to Manchester Airport
@ Ensuring all Liverpool Lime Street to Prestons become Liverpool Lime Street to Blackpool North
@ Removing the remaining DMU diagrams off the Manchester Picadilly to Crewe runs.

And surely even more will be needed when Leeds is wired up?

 

[northwichcat]

Potentially Northern could significantly up their order as some of there services could get better usage with faster journeys.

Many of the faster services will be operated by TPE or using the designated regional stock.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why do these "regional" units need to run *all* the Blackpool North diagrams? Surely it will just be the ones that are presently TPE, i.e. the faster ones?

 

[Failed Unit]

I guess timing is the issue. Routes such as Huddersfield - Leeds. Leeds / York - Hull via selby would all be good uses, but a gap in employment before the wires arrive.

 

[northwichcat]

@ Blackpool North to Huddersfield
@ Preston to Hazel Grove
@ Wigan North Western to Manchester Airport
@ Ensuring all Liverpool Lime Street to Prestons become Liverpool Lime Street to Blackpool North
@ Removing the remaining DMU diagrams off the Manchester Picadilly to Crewe runs.

And surely even more will be needed when Leeds is wired up?

Not sure where you've got the list from but Northern won't operate services between Manchester and Huddersfield from December 2017.

Wigan North Western to Manchester Airport isn't happening unless Northern chose to route Cumbria to Manchester Airport services via Wigan and then they would be designated regional services which they have to use a high standard of rolling stock on. As discussed in another thread it's looks like they'll be semi-fast services between Wigan and Stalybridge via Victoria instead.

There's only 1 booked DMU service per day on the Manchester-Crewe which runs as a Crewe to Bolton service.

I'm not sure many Leeds area services will switch considering York-Blackpool isn't expected to be split and TPE are taking over the local stations between Huddersfield and Leeds and will be running additional services to Selby.
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Why do these "regional" units need to run *all* the Blackpool North diagrams? Surely it will just be the ones that are presently TPE, i.e. the faster ones?

Who was that in response to?

 

[Yabbadabba]

If we are in the realms of fantasy, I would love to see GTR replace the 19 cl313s on the south coast diagrams with the same amount of cl319s even though it's not a franchise commitment. Then we get an extra coach and we get our toilets back. But I'm sure there is a master plan sitting on a desk in an office at DaFT waiting to be put into use that will use all the cl319s that we haven't thought of lol

 

[Bletchleyite]

Who was that in response to?

The post above yours (you posted yours while I was typing it).

 

[thealexweb]

Not sure where you've got the list from but Northern won't operate services between Manchester and Huddersfield from December 2017.

Wigan North Western to Manchester Airport isn't happening unless Northern chose to route Cumbria to Manchester Airport services via Wigan and then they would be designated regional services which they have to use a high standard of rolling stock on. As discussed in another thread it's looks like they'll be semi-fast services between Wigan and Stalybridge via Victoria instead.

There's only 1 booked DMU service per day on the Manchester-Crewe which runs as a Crewe to Bolton service.

I'm not sure many Leeds area services will switch considering York-Blackpool isn't expected to be split and TPE are taking over the local stations between Huddersfield and Leeds and will be running additional services to Selby.
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Who was that in response to?

I was under the impression the current Northern Rail run Manchester Victoria to Huddersfield stopper would continue post-electrification. Will TPE run a stopper service in its place?

Wigan Northern Western to Manchester Airport via Bolton will be happening unless some way can be found of getting wires in to Wigan Wallgate.

 

[northwichcat]

I was under the impression the current Northern Rail run Manchester Victoria to Huddersfield stopper would continue post-electrification. Will TPE run a stopper service in its place?

TPE are set to run a half-hourly service between Piccadilly and Selby (at least one extending to Hull) which will each call at two stations between Stalybridge and Hudderfield. That's initially instead of a stopper.

An option for the reintroduction of a stopper alongside the semi-fast post-December 2020 exists but it depends on how much growth there is.

The ITT doesn't require a direct Victoria-Blackpool service. As it does require an additional direct Stockport-Bolton train per hour, it's possible we could have something like a Macclesfield-Blackpool service instead of the Huddersfield/Victoria-Blackpool service.

Wigan Northern Western to Manchester Airport via Bolton will be happening unless some way can be found of getting wires in to Wigan Wallgate.

Check the franchise ITT. There's no requirement for direct Wigan to Airport services and there's unlikely to be enough paths for one on top of all the Airport services which TPE and Northern are required to operate. Talk of a Wigan-Airport EMU service pre-dates the Northern consultation.